Blackwater IDPA Challenge

Bob Locke · August 13, 2000, 06:37 PM

Let me start by saying that this has got to be THE finest facility in America! Unbelievable! If you are within a day's drive of Moyock, NC, I strongly recommend that you make it a priority to get there for training. You IDPA shooters just may have the chance to get there next year for the Nationals.

Fourteen stages. Well over 150 rounds (closer to 200). Reactive steel. Clear houses. Shooting from the second story. Shooting from the driver's side of a van. Moving (that should be MOVING) targets. And then some of that plain old stuff that we IDPA types are used to shooting. The word of the day was: FUN! That was buoyed be the fact that there was nothing even vaguely resembling a serious injury, so safety was the big winner.

I personally had three or four absolutely terrible stages, but I still managed to finish in the top third of my class (SSP/SS), right behind jawper. You got me, buddy! And we both got beat in our class by a 13 year-old!

I had my best runs on the steel stages, it seemed. That's sort of understandable since I never had to hit one more than once to knock it down. That's the .45 ACP for ya! Several guys shooting 9mm had good hits that just didn't knock them down. I also did real well on the stages where we were shooting up close (2-5 yards) at multiple targets. Had one of the better times of all competitors (about 150 of them) on one stage, and got accused of sand-bagging when the scorer saw that I was shooting in SS class. I offered to show him the scores I had from a couple of other stages to let him see for himself that I was just averaging things out.

A couple of REALLY terrible stages (one where I didn't see a target and ended up scoring 35 seconds where everyone else was in the 15-20 range, and the FAST moving drive-by stage that I basically whiffed on by getting -28 down) tried to ruin the day for me, but I had more good stages than bad ones. But I'm really glad I don't have to do this for a living!

Unless I miss my guess, there's a REAL good chance that this will go on again next year. The only thing that might prevent it is if the Nationals are going to be held there, and they may not want to give everyone a crack at the courses before then. At any rate, my hat is off to the people who run Blackwater, and to Ron, Frank, and the range/safety officers who made this thing go. It was a hoot!

jawper · August 14, 2000, 09:31 AM

Want to echo Bob Locke's enthusiastic report on the IDPA Blackwater Challenge. Most fun I've had since I-don't-know-when. In addition to the actual shooting, the people made the day. There was enough enthusiasm in the air to make things exciting but none of the macho gamesmanship that can detract from such an event. Bob and I both spent the day trooping around with several people we knew from the regular local shoots and it was a fun and supportive group. Additionally, every one of the Blackwater staff with whom I interacted, from the maintenance guys to the senior ROs, were unbelievable welcoming and helpful (they were also damn competent).

Glad to hear that our scores weren't too embarrassing (there were some GOOD shooters at the match). I for one have no problem loosing out to a 13 year old since that kid's hands move faster than my eyes.

Great fun!!

Bob- Sorry I missed ya yesterday. Hope it was enjoyable. Did they set the plates back up?

------------------
Best,
- Jawper

Bob Locke · August 14, 2000, 10:04 AM

You, Paul, and I were within a handful of seconds of each other.

No plate shooting yesterday.

Still, I plan to shoot the classifier again on Friday, because I believe (after looking at the scores and knowing where I messed up) that I am capable of competing in that class. We'll see how it goes. I plan to start using my G19 on one evening and the G21 on the other during our matches. Gotta get good with both of them, after all.

And I did forget to mention the staff down there. They are the BEST!

able2ski · August 14, 2000, 04:14 PM

Bob & Jawper pretty well summed it up.......AWESOME facilities & staff, and Frank gave us a challenging array of stages.

I'm proud to say I won my class: ESP Marksman. This was my proudest moment in my 6 months of IDPA. After choking by with a 4th place finish @ the Carolina Cup, I was determined to win @ Blackwater!

Obviously it wasn't a big money-maker for anyone involved, but hopefully the fantastic folks @ Blackwater will have us back.

Andrew

PS: If anyone got a pic of me getting my award, I'd love a copy. My wife got photos of almost everyone BUT me!

I was the tall redhead guy wearing a white GLOCK t-shirt that morning.

jawper · August 15, 2000, 07:42 AM

able2ski,

Congrats!! Good for you. Although I'm sometimes too unconcerned with rankings, it always feels good to know you've done well.

The way Bob Locke is charging on, I'm gonna need to get serious if I want to keep up with him.

------------------
Best,
- Jawper

Bob Locke · August 15, 2000, 07:47 AM

Andrew,

I'll ask the guys on Wednesday night if any of them got a photo of you. I am almost 100% sure that Chris Oxley did. He was standing off to your left with the digital camera, and I'm pretty certain that he got a shot of every single award winner. If he did, it will likely be posted on the range's web page in the near future (www.ncrr.net).

I'll find out either Wednesday or Thursday night and get back to you.

And I'M the one doing the catching up, jawper! You saw the scores!

You shooting the classifier on Friday? I'm thinking about it, because I really feel like I can shoot Expert. Throw out that one stage in the shoot house and my score would have been right at the top. Oh, well. Such is life!

jawper · August 15, 2000, 08:29 AM

Bob Locke,

I'd really like to shoot the classifier on Friday but I have to be up in the beltway for some meetings. I have to leave Thursday evening since we start at oh-dark-thirty on Friday. Thus, not only will I miss the classifier, I'll miss the Thursday shoot. I think I'll go Wednesday since I've got that itch (the P7 gets moody if it isn't shot regularly). You gonna go both nights?

Please let me know if you'd want to try my G19 with the extended slide release (saw your other post). It is otherwise stock (the meprolights came from the factory) and it might be a good baseline. You're more than welcome to play with it. I can bring it with me to the match.

------------------
Best,
- Jawper

able2ski · August 15, 2000, 09:36 PM

Thanks-

Please let me know about the photo.

Also, where can I veiw the scores again? Not yet posted on the Blackwater site, and although I got an e-mail from Kelly ("The Range's" webmaster)saying they would be on Frank's website, they have not yet appeared there either.

At Blackwater, I was merely concerned with my overall finish in my class; now I want to really compare myself stage-by-stage to the other shooters I know.

Frank is doing a qualifier this Saturday. I fully expect to make Sharpshooter this time. No more ESP trophies for a LOOOOONG time!

able2ski · August 15, 2000, 10:04 PM

OK.......scores are up now.

I was second place Marksman across all divisions!

This gets better all the time!

Bob Locke · August 16, 2000, 11:59 AM

Pretty good chance that I WON'T be there tonight. Looks like I'll be working.

Sorry that I won't get to hook up with you this week, amigo. Maybe later in September. I'll be in Colorado for three weeks (last of Aug., first two of Sep.), so I'll see you when I get back. I think I'll make the match in the 2nd week if it's held. Nationals are coming up, so they may screw with the schedule a little.

On the bright side, it looks like my timing is good on the trip to Colorado. The IDPA club that I am likely to shoot with is having a big match on the 26th of August which I have already been invited to shoot in after contacting the fellow heading it up!

Andrew,

What pistol are you shooting in ESP?

I'm about to go to my G19 in SSP now that I'm feeling comfortable with it. I think I may even be a little faster with it than with my G21 due to slightly less recoil. We'll see.

jawper · August 16, 2000, 12:27 PM

Bob Locke,

I'm very glad to hear that you're getting some family time. I'll also be interested to hear what differences you note in the IDPA club out there since my experience is limited to NCRR.

Enjoy the trip. I'll look forward to seeing you when you get back.

------------------
Best,
- Jawper

able2ski · August 16, 2000, 04:05 PM

I'm shooting a G19 with a few goodies on it. Sub 3 pound trigger pull according to my guage. This has been the gun that always feels most natural to me. I do have a problem pulling shots to the left when I rush; the problem only exists using a G19 though......

I just can't seem to get the hang of the 1911 pattern pistols. In qualifing, I used a G19 for ESP & a G20 (10mm) for SSP. Both scores were 1-2 seconds off Sharpshooter. The same day, I used my Govt model Colt 45 for a CDP qualifier & was 30 seconds slower.

This weekend, I plan to redo my ESP qualifier with my G19 to make Sharpshooter. If time allows, I'd like to try my S&W model 66 to do a revolver qualifier as well.

Bob Locke · August 17, 2000, 08:14 AM

I've been shooting my G21 in SSP, but plan to shoot my G19 tonight in our match and then on Friday in the classifier if I do well enough with it this evening. If I don't do well, then I'll shoot the G21 on Friday.

I plan to shoot Expert. We'll see how it works out. I missed by 10 seconds last time around, but that was only my second classifier and I've only been at this for a little less than 3 months. My first classifier back in June I shot SS by just over 1 second. Improved that by 20 seconds in about a month's time, so I figure if I have improved even marginally I should be able to clean up those last 10 seconds and get into Expert, which is where I really feel I belong. We'll see how it goes.

And I'll ask Chris tonight about the photos.

Bob Locke · August 17, 2000, 08:16 AM

Also, what "goodies" do you have on that G19 that puts you in ESP? Would changing out the trigger to the 3.5# disconnect be enough to get into ESP, or are there other mods required?

able2ski · August 17, 2000, 05:46 PM

Bob-

Ask 5 people, you will get 5 different interpretations of the rules.

As I read the book, a simple mod like an aftermarket guide rod & uncaptured spring makes a G19 ESP. I think REPLACEMENT of trigger parts will also bump you to ESP. Merely tweaking & polishing the origional parts is SSP legal.

My personal philosophy is to remain within the "spirit" of IDPA, not agonize over minute specifics of the rulebook. If money or a major title were at stake, I'd be more concerned.......for me its more about honing my skills & having a good time with equipment that makes me comfortable.

At Blackwater, a couple people raised questions about the "Seattle slug" I was using in my G19. Both times it was ruled as ESP legal, but I can see arguments for its illegality too. In any event, it stopped me from pinching the palm of my hand while seating mags; the blood blisters will finally heal! For that reason (rulings aside) it will remain installed on my gun.

Bob Locke · August 18, 2000, 07:37 AM

This is straight off the rule book page at idpa.com:

Stock Service Pistol:

INCLUSIVE list of permitted modifications: (If it's not on this list, it can't be used in Defensive Pistol competition)

-Change of sights to another conventional notch and post type

-Change of grips to another style or material that is similar to factory configuration (no weighted grips)

-Slip-on grip sock and/or skateboard tape

-Action work to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained

-Reliability work to enhance feeding and ejection

-Internal accuracy work to include replacement of barrel with one of factory configuration

-Custom finishes

NON-INCLUSIVE list of EXCLUDED modifications:

-Externally visible modifications other than grips or sights

-Heavy barrels and/or barrel sleeves (factory or aftermarket)

-Add on weights of any type, weighted magazines

-Sights of non-standard notch and post type

-Porting of barrels (factory or aftermarket)

-Compensators

SO here's the question:

If I take my G21 and my G19 down and have the 3.5# disconnect installed, does that mean that I have to start shooting in ESP instead of SSP?

GeneS · August 18, 2000, 03:35 PM

Bob Locke,

Changing to the 3.5 lb. trigger connector in a Glock is considered as "action work to enhance trigger pull", one of the permitted mods, in SSP. It will not change your division. Modifications such as an extended slide release or an extended magazine well would move a Glock 19 to ESP or a Glock 21 to CDP. A totally stock Glock 19 can be used in ESP if the competitor prefered. As can a Glock 21 be used in CDP. If you use that 21 in CDP you have to make the 165 Power Factor but in SSP you only have to make the 125 Power Factor.

Regards,
Gene

[This message has been edited by GeneS (edited August 18, 2000).]

August 13, 2000, 06:37 PM	#1
Bob Locke Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 1999 Location: Greeley, CO Posts: 2,518	Let me start by saying that this has got to be THE finest facility in America! Unbelievable! If you are within a day's drive of Moyock, NC, I strongly recommend that you make it a priority to get there for training. You IDPA shooters just may have the chance to get there next year for the Nationals. Fourteen stages. Well over 150 rounds (closer to 200). Reactive steel. Clear houses. Shooting from the second story. Shooting from the driver's side of a van. Moving (that should be MOVING) targets. And then some of that plain old stuff that we IDPA types are used to shooting. The word of the day was: FUN! That was buoyed be the fact that there was nothing even vaguely resembling a serious injury, so safety was the big winner. I personally had three or four absolutely terrible stages, but I still managed to finish in the top third of my class (SSP/SS), right behind jawper. You got me, buddy! And we both got beat in our class by a 13 year-old! I had my best runs on the steel stages, it seemed. That's sort of understandable since I never had to hit one more than once to knock it down. That's the .45 ACP for ya! Several guys shooting 9mm had good hits that just didn't knock them down. I also did real well on the stages where we were shooting up close (2-5 yards) at multiple targets. Had one of the better times of all competitors (about 150 of them) on one stage, and got accused of sand-bagging when the scorer saw that I was shooting in SS class. I offered to show him the scores I had from a couple of other stages to let him see for himself that I was just averaging things out. A couple of REALLY terrible stages (one where I didn't see a target and ended up scoring 35 seconds where everyone else was in the 15-20 range, and the FAST moving drive-by stage that I basically whiffed on by getting -28 down) tried to ruin the day for me, but I had more good stages than bad ones. But I'm really glad I don't have to do this for a living! Unless I miss my guess, there's a REAL good chance that this will go on again next year. The only thing that might prevent it is if the Nationals are going to be held there, and they may not want to give everyone a crack at the courses before then. At any rate, my hat is off to the people who run Blackwater, and to Ron, Frank, and the range/safety officers who made this thing go. It was a hoot!

August 14, 2000, 09:31 AM	#2
jawper Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 1999 Location: Oregon Posts: 189	Want to echo Bob Locke's enthusiastic report on the IDPA Blackwater Challenge. Most fun I've had since I-don't-know-when. In addition to the actual shooting, the people made the day. There was enough enthusiasm in the air to make things exciting but none of the macho gamesmanship that can detract from such an event. Bob and I both spent the day trooping around with several people we knew from the regular local shoots and it was a fun and supportive group. Additionally, every one of the Blackwater staff with whom I interacted, from the maintenance guys to the senior ROs, were unbelievable welcoming and helpful (they were also damn competent). Glad to hear that our scores weren't too embarrassing (there were some GOOD shooters at the match). I for one have no problem loosing out to a 13 year old since that kid's hands move faster than my eyes. Great fun!! Bob- Sorry I missed ya yesterday. Hope it was enjoyable. Did they set the plates back up? ------------------ Best, - Jawper

August 14, 2000, 10:04 AM	#3
Bob Locke Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 1999 Location: Greeley, CO Posts: 2,518	You, Paul, and I were within a handful of seconds of each other. No plate shooting yesterday. Still, I plan to shoot the classifier again on Friday, because I believe (after looking at the scores and knowing where I messed up) that I am capable of competing in that class. We'll see how it goes. I plan to start using my G19 on one evening and the G21 on the other during our matches. Gotta get good with both of them, after all. And I did forget to mention the staff down there. They are the BEST!

August 14, 2000, 04:14 PM	#4
able2ski Member Join Date: January 24, 2000 Posts: 35	Bob & Jawper pretty well summed it up.......AWESOME facilities & staff, and Frank gave us a challenging array of stages. I'm proud to say I won my class: ESP Marksman. This was my proudest moment in my 6 months of IDPA. After choking by with a 4th place finish @ the Carolina Cup, I was determined to win @ Blackwater! Obviously it wasn't a big money-maker for anyone involved, but hopefully the fantastic folks @ Blackwater will have us back. Andrew PS: If anyone got a pic of me getting my award, I'd love a copy. My wife got photos of almost everyone BUT me! I was the tall redhead guy wearing a white GLOCK t-shirt that morning.

August 15, 2000, 07:42 AM	#5
jawper Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 1999 Location: Oregon Posts: 189	able2ski, Congrats!! Good for you. Although I'm sometimes too unconcerned with rankings, it always feels good to know you've done well. The way Bob Locke is charging on, I'm gonna need to get serious if I want to keep up with him. ------------------ Best, - Jawper

August 15, 2000, 07:47 AM	#6
Bob Locke Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 1999 Location: Greeley, CO Posts: 2,518	Andrew, I'll ask the guys on Wednesday night if any of them got a photo of you. I am almost 100% sure that Chris Oxley did. He was standing off to your left with the digital camera, and I'm pretty certain that he got a shot of every single award winner. If he did, it will likely be posted on the range's web page in the near future (www.ncrr.net). I'll find out either Wednesday or Thursday night and get back to you. And I'M the one doing the catching up, jawper! You saw the scores! You shooting the classifier on Friday? I'm thinking about it, because I really feel like I can shoot Expert. Throw out that one stage in the shoot house and my score would have been right at the top. Oh, well. Such is life!

August 15, 2000, 08:29 AM	#7
jawper Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 1999 Location: Oregon Posts: 189	Bob Locke, I'd really like to shoot the classifier on Friday but I have to be up in the beltway for some meetings. I have to leave Thursday evening since we start at oh-dark-thirty on Friday. Thus, not only will I miss the classifier, I'll miss the Thursday shoot. I think I'll go Wednesday since I've got that itch (the P7 gets moody if it isn't shot regularly). You gonna go both nights? Please let me know if you'd want to try my G19 with the extended slide release (saw your other post). It is otherwise stock (the meprolights came from the factory) and it might be a good baseline. You're more than welcome to play with it. I can bring it with me to the match. ------------------ Best, - Jawper

August 15, 2000, 09:36 PM	#8
able2ski Member Join Date: January 24, 2000 Posts: 35	Thanks- Please let me know about the photo. Also, where can I veiw the scores again? Not yet posted on the Blackwater site, and although I got an e-mail from Kelly ("The Range's" webmaster)saying they would be on Frank's website, they have not yet appeared there either. At Blackwater, I was merely concerned with my overall finish in my class; now I want to really compare myself stage-by-stage to the other shooters I know. Frank is doing a qualifier this Saturday. I fully expect to make Sharpshooter this time. No more ESP trophies for a LOOOOONG time!

August 15, 2000, 10:04 PM	#9
able2ski Member Join Date: January 24, 2000 Posts: 35	OK.......scores are up now. I was second place Marksman across all divisions! This gets better all the time!

August 16, 2000, 11:59 AM	#10
Bob Locke Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 1999 Location: Greeley, CO Posts: 2,518	Pretty good chance that I WON'T be there tonight. Looks like I'll be working. Sorry that I won't get to hook up with you this week, amigo. Maybe later in September. I'll be in Colorado for three weeks (last of Aug., first two of Sep.), so I'll see you when I get back. I think I'll make the match in the 2nd week if it's held. Nationals are coming up, so they may screw with the schedule a little. On the bright side, it looks like my timing is good on the trip to Colorado. The IDPA club that I am likely to shoot with is having a big match on the 26th of August which I have already been invited to shoot in after contacting the fellow heading it up! Andrew, What pistol are you shooting in ESP? I'm about to go to my G19 in SSP now that I'm feeling comfortable with it. I think I may even be a little faster with it than with my G21 due to slightly less recoil. We'll see.

August 16, 2000, 12:27 PM	#11
jawper Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 1999 Location: Oregon Posts: 189	Bob Locke, I'm very glad to hear that you're getting some family time. I'll also be interested to hear what differences you note in the IDPA club out there since my experience is limited to NCRR. Enjoy the trip. I'll look forward to seeing you when you get back. ------------------ Best, - Jawper

August 16, 2000, 04:05 PM	#12
able2ski Member Join Date: January 24, 2000 Posts: 35	I'm shooting a G19 with a few goodies on it. Sub 3 pound trigger pull according to my guage. This has been the gun that always feels most natural to me. I do have a problem pulling shots to the left when I rush; the problem only exists using a G19 though...... I just can't seem to get the hang of the 1911 pattern pistols. In qualifing, I used a G19 for ESP & a G20 (10mm) for SSP. Both scores were 1-2 seconds off Sharpshooter. The same day, I used my Govt model Colt 45 for a CDP qualifier & was 30 seconds slower. This weekend, I plan to redo my ESP qualifier with my G19 to make Sharpshooter. If time allows, I'd like to try my S&W model 66 to do a revolver qualifier as well.

August 17, 2000, 08:14 AM	#13
Bob Locke Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 1999 Location: Greeley, CO Posts: 2,518	I've been shooting my G21 in SSP, but plan to shoot my G19 tonight in our match and then on Friday in the classifier if I do well enough with it this evening. If I don't do well, then I'll shoot the G21 on Friday. I plan to shoot Expert. We'll see how it works out. I missed by 10 seconds last time around, but that was only my second classifier and I've only been at this for a little less than 3 months. My first classifier back in June I shot SS by just over 1 second. Improved that by 20 seconds in about a month's time, so I figure if I have improved even marginally I should be able to clean up those last 10 seconds and get into Expert, which is where I really feel I belong. We'll see how it goes. And I'll ask Chris tonight about the photos.

August 17, 2000, 08:16 AM	#14
Bob Locke Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 1999 Location: Greeley, CO Posts: 2,518	Also, what "goodies" do you have on that G19 that puts you in ESP? Would changing out the trigger to the 3.5# disconnect be enough to get into ESP, or are there other mods required?

August 17, 2000, 05:46 PM	#15
able2ski Member Join Date: January 24, 2000 Posts: 35	Bob- Ask 5 people, you will get 5 different interpretations of the rules. As I read the book, a simple mod like an aftermarket guide rod & uncaptured spring makes a G19 ESP. I think REPLACEMENT of trigger parts will also bump you to ESP. Merely tweaking & polishing the origional parts is SSP legal. My personal philosophy is to remain within the "spirit" of IDPA, not agonize over minute specifics of the rulebook. If money or a major title were at stake, I'd be more concerned.......for me its more about honing my skills & having a good time with equipment that makes me comfortable. At Blackwater, a couple people raised questions about the "Seattle slug" I was using in my G19. Both times it was ruled as ESP legal, but I can see arguments for its illegality too. In any event, it stopped me from pinching the palm of my hand while seating mags; the blood blisters will finally heal! For that reason (rulings aside) it will remain installed on my gun.

August 18, 2000, 07:37 AM	#16
Bob Locke Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 1999 Location: Greeley, CO Posts: 2,518	This is straight off the rule book page at idpa.com: Stock Service Pistol: INCLUSIVE list of permitted modifications: (If it's not on this list, it can't be used in Defensive Pistol competition) -Change of sights to another conventional notch and post type -Change of grips to another style or material that is similar to factory configuration (no weighted grips) -Slip-on grip sock and/or skateboard tape -Action work to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained -Reliability work to enhance feeding and ejection -Internal accuracy work to include replacement of barrel with one of factory configuration -Custom finishes NON-INCLUSIVE list of EXCLUDED modifications: -Externally visible modifications other than grips or sights -Heavy barrels and/or barrel sleeves (factory or aftermarket) -Add on weights of any type, weighted magazines -Sights of non-standard notch and post type -Porting of barrels (factory or aftermarket) -Compensators SO here's the question: If I take my G21 and my G19 down and have the 3.5# disconnect installed, does that mean that I have to start shooting in ESP instead of SSP?

August 18, 2000, 03:35 PM	#17
GeneS Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2000 Location: North Carolina, USA Posts: 190	Bob Locke, Changing to the 3.5 lb. trigger connector in a Glock is considered as "action work to enhance trigger pull", one of the permitted mods, in SSP. It will not change your division. Modifications such as an extended slide release or an extended magazine well would move a Glock 19 to ESP or a Glock 21 to CDP. A totally stock Glock 19 can be used in ESP if the competitor prefered. As can a Glock 21 be used in CDP. If you use that 21 in CDP you have to make the 165 Power Factor but in SSP you only have to make the 125 Power Factor. Regards, Gene [This message has been edited by GeneS (edited August 18, 2000).]