|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
December 19, 2012, 04:47 PM | #101 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Location: NOVA aka Northern VA
Posts: 123
|
Jim, thank you. I appreciate the links and I'm familiar with all of them. As they say, this ain't my first rodeo. If I am to be honest, right now, today, I am unable to tell anyone where I stand. Maybe once the emotion of the situation settles down a bit within me I'll come around but it's a strange place I'm at right now.
I did make a new thread regarding an SKS I'm considering so it's not that I've turned against guns, I haven't and I'm not going to get rid of my own. My thoughts, rather, linger around whether or not I trust every Tom, Dick & Harry to purchase a tool that can deal such incredible destruction to such incredibly innocent people (kids). Like I said, my mind is in uncharted waters and I find myself questioning a lot of my own beliefs. |
December 19, 2012, 04:59 PM | #102 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,556
|
Just have faith that they are capable of as much good as evil, if not more. And not every Tom, Dick, and Harry can buy one.. even this guy didn't buy one.. he stole them.
|
December 19, 2012, 04:59 PM | #103 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Quote:
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
|
December 19, 2012, 05:10 PM | #104 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Location: NOVA aka Northern VA
Posts: 123
|
Thanks Jim, I know what you're saying and I'm not arguing with you at all. I probably need a little more time to come to terms with everything.
Whoever mentioned Police coming into anyones house to see their gun-safe? That is 100% unacceptable. I'd rather there be a ban than to have Police in my house double-checking where and how I keep my guns. |
December 19, 2012, 05:10 PM | #105 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,446
|
The discussion seems to be turning towards what should be done now which is a very good thing IMHO. If we are to weather this storm without substantial blows to our rights, we're going to have to be able to offer meaningful and easily articulable solutions of our own rather than just rejecting any and all new proposals.
I think that most of us can agree that a new AWB or similar gun control laws are not the answer here. Lanza undoubtedly broke numerous state and federal gun laws in the commission of his heinous actions and it seems obvious at this point that he neither respected the law nor feared the punishment for breaking it. Because Lanza had no regard for the law and because there is no reasonable way to make every possible means of committing mass murder unavailable, it seems to me that focusing on the tools Lanza used is the wrong approach. Mention has been made of Lanza's access to his mother's guns. I think it's really too early to make judgement calls based on that because we still do not know exactly how easy it was for Lanza to gain access to said gun. More broadly, I think that mandating all gun owners to keep their firearms locked away from children is a more complex issue than many might think and is frought with unintended concequences. Not all children are the same and some are psychologically and emotionally stable and mature enough to be trusted with firearms at a remarkably young age while others obviously are not. Compounding this, children can, have, and do use firearms for lawful self-defense more often than one might think. While not a perfect solution, I still feel that the ultimate decision about how much access a given child should have to firearms should remain with that child's parents or legal guardians. I would have no problem holding adults legally responsible for crimes or negligent accidents that minor children might commit with their firearms, but such is already the case in many, if not most, jurisdictions. Lanza's case is somewhat different, however, in that he was 20 years old and thus legally an adult himself. The mental health issue is another in which we should tread carefully. Mental health is one of the most complex areas of medicine and there is surprisingly little consensus on the best treatment and even definitions for many disorders. While the litmus test for abridgment of rights is generally whether or not individuals poses a danger to themselves or others, that is not as clear cut as we'd like it to be. We must be very careful that, in our attempts to keep guns out of the hands of the extremely small number of people who are dangerously ill that we don't abridge the rights of those who are not unnecessarily. The more important facet of mental health that I think needs to be addressed is the availability and quality of mental health care in our current system. The final, and IMHO most important, issue that needs to be addressed is the security of our schools. No matter how restrictive our laws nor how good our mental health care system, someone will eventually slip through the cracks and attempt to do something horrible again. We need to transform our schools from "soft targets" into "hard targets" where people like Lanza are not free to carry out their deranged intentions while meeting little or no resistance. It is no accident that these sorts of mass murders usually occur in areas with little or no police presence and where the victims are likely, if not guaranteed, to be unarmed. Some have proposed stationing armed guards in schools. As Tom Servo has pointed out that presents financial problems particularly for small communities without deep coffers. These financial problems could, I think, be addressed through the allotment of federal funds to districts that cannot afford such measures on their own. Furthermore, this whole "gun free school" nonsense most certainly needs to be re-examined. Lunatics like Lanza obviously do not care whether or not guns are banned on school property while the ban serves to ensure that the victims are helpless. I see no good reason that school faculty, and in the case of colleges students, who meet the legal requirements to carry a handgun for self-defense in their state should not be allowed to do so in a school. The whole property rights argument of schools (colleges in particular) has lost me, your property rights do not trump my right to self-defense. |
December 19, 2012, 05:14 PM | #106 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Quote:
|
|
December 19, 2012, 05:18 PM | #107 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,556
|
Actually they do. My property rights trump your self defense rights. You don't need to be on my property. You don't need to go to college, don't even have a right to. You see where I'm going here? Your employer can ban guns in the workplace if they so desire. You can either carry and be fired, quit, or not carry. You can't take them to court to force them to allow you to carry. Unless they're a state or local agency, and your state has preemption laws that work in your favor and don't prohibit in the state agency you happen to work at whch is so narrow and unlikely to fall exactly into place that its not really worth mentioning.
|
December 19, 2012, 05:20 PM | #108 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Location: NOVA aka Northern VA
Posts: 123
|
Quote:
Who knows more about this community than we do? Nobody. So if any rules are to be made, and it is looking like the will be made, then we should be the ones to, at least, have a voice in making them. People, myself included, are very upset and they have every right to be. If we take our standard circle the wagons stance I think we will marginalize ourselves and that is a terrible fate as we will never be taken seriously again. Like it or not, we need to probably have a talk amongst ourselves about what we would like to suggest in the form of solutions in so far as the gun debate extends. We obviously can't speak for other communities like mental health professionals as it is IMHO up to them to propose solutions from their end. Keep in mind, I'm still very much in a strange place with all of this and nothing I'm saying is absolute or etched in stone. I'm just thinking out loud. |
|
December 19, 2012, 05:25 PM | #109 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Quote:
Now answer me this: Do you realize how it sounds to suggest to most Americans that the police have the right to approve my Constitutional right to keep and bear arms?
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin Last edited by K_Mac; December 19, 2012 at 06:53 PM. |
|
December 19, 2012, 05:26 PM | #110 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Quote:
|
|
December 19, 2012, 05:29 PM | #111 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,556
|
We love our kids better, that's why we give them better beef and dental?
Truth be told, they're talking about barbed wire topped 12 foot fences and patrolling german shephards for the same reason theyre talkin about banning the black rifle. There was just a catastrophe, and everyone wants to do SOMETHING.... that SOMETHING is colored by their perspective. When the emotion drains away, and America as a people start moving on, we won't be talking about putting a Bradley on the front lawn of every school in America anymore. |
December 19, 2012, 05:30 PM | #112 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Location: NOVA aka Northern VA
Posts: 123
|
I have been thinking about the idea of having an armed and trained person stationed at every school and I've seen something mentioned on another forum that doesn't sound too outlandish.
What about using a rotating schedule for member of the Armed Forces aka National Guard for legal reasons. They are already on the Government payroll and making this a part of their duties isn't beyond the realms of possibility. I don't think that military uniform/garb would work in schools as it could scare children and adults alike but perhaps there could be a more civilian looking uniform adopted? Also I don't think that the idea of an automatic weapon being carried around in plain view is all that great so I'd limit it to sidearms or other concealable or non-blatant firearms. It's just a thought and certainly not fully baked. |
December 19, 2012, 05:34 PM | #113 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,446
|
Quote:
|
|
December 19, 2012, 05:37 PM | #114 |
Member
Join Date: April 3, 2009
Location: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan
Posts: 67
|
manta49
Safe Firearm Storage It is your responsibility to ensure that your firearms and ammunition are stored safely and securely at all times. You must take any necessary steps to prevent unauthorised access, so far as is reasonably possible. A gun cabinet is required - specification BS 7558 (1992) - and it must be secured to the fabric of a building. If you are moving your firearm and ammunition by vehicle then it must be hidden from direct view and stored within a locked box or secured to an anchorage point. PS Seems reasonable to me. I agree. And like I said, NOTHING is a failsafe. Seatbelts aren't either, but does that mean we must throw a fit over enforcement of seatbelt laws? I don' think it's unreasonable.
__________________
"If someone's personality changes when they carry a gun, they should leave it at home." - Catfishman |
December 19, 2012, 05:38 PM | #115 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Quote:
|
|
December 19, 2012, 05:40 PM | #116 |
Member
Join Date: April 3, 2009
Location: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan
Posts: 67
|
No1der
There's an old saying that a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. I mention this because I think that is the mindset in Washington right now. I can honestly say that I'm not certain how I feel about this. The tragedy in Newtown was/is horrible and definitely a watershed moment that has caused this gun enthusiast to seriously reassess this long time gun enthusiasts beliefs. Please nobody jump on my back for saying that, I'm not making any kind of political statement at all. I'm making a personal statement about my own state of mind in these very troubling times. Edit: Sorry for the clumsy way in which I said what I said. This is exactly how I feel as well. The death of 20 children will do funny things to you. Yes, it is emotion. But I still find myself questioning if perhaps we need to make some changes. But the key is, WHAT changes?
__________________
"If someone's personality changes when they carry a gun, they should leave it at home." - Catfishman |
December 19, 2012, 05:42 PM | #117 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Location: NOVA aka Northern VA
Posts: 123
|
Quote:
Edit: I mean think about it. If your doctor is now the person who decides what you are and aren't allowed to do then you're going to do everything in your power to not see your doctor. Lets say that this rule were limited to mental health professionals. OK, so now we have a situation where people with depression or other serious but mundane illnesses will avoid getting help. Lets say that your beautiful marriage breaks up and you end up in counseling. Well, now you're seeing a mental health professional. So one word from him and you can never buy another gun again? Really? That's why this is not viable. We don't want people avoiding their doctors and avoiding getting much needed medical help. This would possibly cause more problems than it would ever solve. Last edited by No1der; December 19, 2012 at 05:56 PM. |
|
December 19, 2012, 05:58 PM | #118 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Quote:
The police don't have the power to check with your doctor without your permission. I have nothing to hide so i have no problem giving permission. They don't get your medical records the doctor is asked if any treatment would affect your ability to own a firearm. Quote Police Service N Ireland Firearms application. A18 I give my consent for the police to approach my GP, consultant or other medical authority to obtain factual details of my medical history if necessary. Quote:
Last edited by manta49; December 19, 2012 at 06:05 PM. |
||
December 19, 2012, 06:04 PM | #119 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Location: NOVA aka Northern VA
Posts: 123
|
Quote:
The psychiatrist tells the cops, sure I don't see a problem while your GP is completely against guns and based on this alone tells the police he doesn't think it's a good idea for you to have a gun. Which doctor trumps which? What rules do they follow for making such a decision concerning your rights? What is the criteria? |
|
December 19, 2012, 06:09 PM | #120 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,446
|
Quote:
Quote:
You have to understand that here in the US, we view keeping and bearing arms not as a special privelage reserved only for those who can show good cause, but a fundamental right of a citizen. As such, abridgment of that right is subject to the same scrutiny as abridgment of any other fundamental right such as freedom of speech, trial by jury, or freedom of religeon in that it is the government that must show cause to deny the rights of a citizen rather than the citizen showing cause not to have his rights denied. The government bears the burden of proving that one is too dangerous to have a gun rather than the citizen proving that he isn't. Last edited by Webleymkv; December 19, 2012 at 06:14 PM. |
||
December 19, 2012, 06:11 PM | #121 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Quote:
|
|
December 19, 2012, 06:11 PM | #122 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Location: NOVA aka Northern VA
Posts: 123
|
Lets take it further.
Lets say that you are a veteran returning from Afghanistan and you have PTSD or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. You've served several tours of duty and you are now home and you want to buy a gun. PTSD is a mental illness and many shooters in the past who have committed murder have had PTSD while 99% have not committed murder (yet). So, now we have someone who served his country with emphasis on using a firearm and now that he's home, what should his psychiatrist say based on the vets PTSD alone? Edit: Should a Veteran have to make the choice between getting help for his PTSD and his right to own a firearm? |
December 19, 2012, 06:11 PM | #123 | |
Member
Join Date: March 5, 2012
Location: Valley Forge, PA
Posts: 80
|
Quote:
__________________
-Tom |
|
December 19, 2012, 06:15 PM | #124 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Location: NOVA aka Northern VA
Posts: 123
|
Quote:
I also admitted that nothing I said is etched in stone or that anything I'm suggesting is fully baked just yet and I said I needed time. I know what I'm questioning myself about, doesn't mean I've changed my mind on it. I also know what I find completely out of the question. |
|
December 19, 2012, 06:25 PM | #125 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Quote:
Crimes That Shook Britain: The Hungerford Massacre 8 May 2012 13:50 One August afternoon in 1987, a heavily-armed Michael Robert Ryan shot and killed sixteen people - including his own mother - before turning a gun on himself. It remains one of the worst shooting atrocities in British history. The seckond lead to the ban on handguns. Shortly after 9 a.m. on March 13, 1996, Thomas Hamilton, a 43-year-old former Scout leader, burst into the gymnasium of a primary school in the tranquil Scottish town of Dunblane. Within minutes 15 children aged five and six had died in a hail of bullets. One died later in hospital. Their teacher, Gwen Mayor, a 44-year-old mother of two, died in the attack, reportedly while trying to shield her pupils. Two other teachers were also seriously injured while heroically trying to protect children. Hamilton turned one of his four handguns on himself and was found dead at the scene. It didn't stop other incidents. Twelve people have been killed and 25 injured by a gunman who opened fire in west Cumbria. A body thought to be that of the suspect - taxi driver Derrick Bird - has been found in the Boot area. |
|
|
|