Setting Gun Owners Back...

Exit_Wound · January 7, 2014, 03:28 PM

Uuggghhhhh!

I just wanted to post this video in the hopes that others here will share my outrage!

What do they think they're accomplishing with this???!!

Just because you have the right to act like a moron doesn't mean you should, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N30TagPCNE4&sns=em

**Spats McGee** · January 7, 2014, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exit_Wound

Just because you have the right to act like a moron doesn't mean you should, right?

Oh, if only I had nickle for every time I've thought that . . . .

(I'll have to wait until later to watch the video, though.)

KMAX · January 7, 2014, 05:23 PM

Saw this video in another post. I don't see how this could do us any good. The cop had more patience than I would have. Maybe it's a good thing I am not a cop.

Fishing_Cabin · January 7, 2014, 05:33 PM

I've seen the video before. Basically a couple of guys carrying a slung AR-15, while carrying a camera, and according to the first part of the video they said "...They are going out to exercise their rights with a rifle today.....and also to find professional, respectful and constitutional officers in the state of Oregon..." It was evidently after the shooting in Aurora Colorado, since it was mentioned in the video. Evidently by the officers comments they received several calls on them walking around in/around the sidewalk on what seems to be a fairly busy road.

So, going from their words at the start of the video, the intent was interaction with law enforcement on some level. Judging from their objection to showing I.D. they evidently objected to the contact with LE they sought after it happened. Some things boggle my mind....

lefteye · January 7, 2014, 05:33 PM

I suspect the officer (and the other officers in the background) were well aware of this stupid "demonstration" before the conversation even began. The officer's performance was truly outstanding.

AllenJ · January 7, 2014, 05:38 PM

In my opinion stunts like this do more harm than good, especially giving the police officer a hard time like that. The law enforcement officer did an awesome job of not escalating the situation into an incident.

**Tom Servo** · January 7, 2014, 05:50 PM

So, here's my question: wouldn't we rather officers use the time and resources they have to patrol and apprehend criminals, or would we rather have them waste them dealing with this attention-craving idiocy? Nobody's being educated, and all it's doing is driving traffic to the author's YouTube page. Heck, the guy's not even carrying the rifle correctly.

In the meantime, it's throwing a scare into people for no good reason. I'm reminded of a great recent quote from alumnus Tamara: there's a difference between just carrying a gun, and carrying a gun at people.

That said, we've had more than a few of these threads lately, and I'm worried that we're just treading over the same ground yet again.

Exit_Wound · January 7, 2014, 05:56 PM

I really hope that the increase in these posts just means they are being brought to the surface more, and not that there are more uncouth gun owners out there! Don't mean to harp on it though...

Ugh, it's really just an etiquette issue.

Thanks for commiserating

Glenn E. Meyer · January 7, 2014, 06:10 PM

I always ask - what would you do if you saw this person walk into the mall?

What would you do if you saw this permission strolling into the movie theater? Into the Starbucks and they unslung the gun.

Let's say (and based on the significant research on false alarm errors based on ethnic categories) - that the open carry AR advocate was a person of an ethnic or racial group other than caucasian. Racial discussions are problematic and usually against our rules when folks start blathering about how they don't like this or that group.

But as I pointed out in an article I wrote for Pax in Concealed Carry, there's good evidence of more 'bad' shoots in simulation depending on group.

Recall the outrage when men of color carried rifles to demonstrate their 2nd Amendment rights in CA, years ago.

I can see this kind of behavior leading to a disaster.

The abstract statement that rights are rights, doesn't mean that there won't be some bad things.

**Tom Servo** · January 7, 2014, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

I always ask - what would you do if you saw this person walk into the mall?

What would you do if you saw this permission strolling into the movie theater? Into the Starbucks and they unslung the gun.

My first thought wouldn't be "2A champion.". Depending on circumstances, it may be "active shooter."

madmo44mag · January 7, 2014, 06:57 PM

Good cop.
Two stupid kids that think they are doing the gun community a service.
Common sense tells ya that anyone walking around with a AR is going to panic some people.
I will not get up on my soap box.

BumbleBug · January 7, 2014, 08:29 PM

First let me say that I would be concerned seeing guys wandering the streets with AR's. Yes, they are dummies & their effect on 2nd amendment rights I would definitely deem as negative.

But the officer's response was quite interesting. Obviously, these "flaunting AR's because of their rights" activities have had an effect on LE officers. The officer was obviously cognizant of the law (perhaps refreshed recently) & had been coached on how to handle the situation. He got the info he needed & all was good & defused. I see that as a good thing. Remember all the other videos where even the slightest police resistance by a citizen turns them into "Bad Cop"?

Sometimes I get so sick of people forcing things in my face to make a point. But indeed it is usually a point taken, either good or bad. In this case, bad in the context of RTKABA, but good in coaching the police on who works for who & why.

JIMHO...

shortwave · January 7, 2014, 09:27 PM

My assessment :

Three morons foolishly spending valuable tax dollars and resources with one very ,almost too affable of a cop.

BuckRub · January 7, 2014, 09:46 PM

How would it have changed if a passer byer called in and reported on 911 that these indivudals were aiming a rifle at people driving by ? I bet quite a bit different.
And they do have a right to open carry as well as here in Texas But the officer arived on scence should have pulled up and asked to see gun, got gun and ran numbers to see if stolen. If he doesnt want to hand oper firearm when officer asks to see it, suffer consequences. Same as a officer telling someone to pull over. Best thing to do is submit. Or suffer consequences.... stupid guys like this do more harm than good.

Nathan · January 7, 2014, 10:01 PM

This is where I struggle with open carry... It would still be legal in some places if they were loaded, chambered and has a Tac vest full of ammo, right?

Now, where can they go? If they go in anywhere, they can be legally asked to leave.

This is where it gets sticky. If they are walking around patrol rifle style(horizontal), are they still legal.

Depending on their actions....do they have the same right to yell and scream as we all do? I can see them drawing fire from LEO or CCW.

That's why I don't like it.

If you, I, we want to carry the 45 Colt on the hip hiking, walking in the park, back to the Walmart, I'm totally thrilled with that. Carrying my AR, spare mags, one in the pipe, like I'm going for coffee in Kabul...is a no go for me. Somehow that has moved from defensive to offensive IMNSHO..

The the whole ID thing...urrrgh. I as much as the next guy don't want to play the where are you going, where have you been, any weapons, any drugs, have you ever done something illegal conversation, but I show them my ID, because frankly it is the state's id.....they just let me hold it so I can show it and move on...lessening my detainment. I would always decline a search, I instruct my kids to do the same. I would always say no to any other check. Good thing I've never been stopped for DUI check.

My point is, there is a line. I can't define it other than for myself. These guys are over my personal line.

tynman · January 7, 2014, 10:37 PM

Let me just say 2 things
1 you cant fix stupid.

2 good job on the police officers side.

Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret · January 8, 2014, 10:48 AM

Quote:

But the officer arived on scence should have pulled up and asked to see gun, got gun and ran numbers to see if stolen.

"Let me see that gun to verify that it isn't stolen" is hardly a lawful police order.

2ndsojourn · January 8, 2014, 10:55 AM

^^^ I agree. It's a common request around here though. It seems to me a common thing with police and guns all over.

But on topic, I thought the cop kept his cool rather well. Again, not what I would expect of the police around here.

Uncle Buck · January 8, 2014, 12:08 PM

I open carry, not as frequently as I use to, due to cold weather and becoming a homebody for the winter.

That being said: I always provide identification for the police officers when asked. (I usually will not consent to a vehicle search.) After I have made the officer feel safe, we can talk about my constitutional rights and such.

I guess I am lucky, I live in rural Missouri and have contact with the sheriff and deputies both officially and un-officially. One of them walked down to the range at my house and asked what we were shooting. He called in to dispatch for his "Break" and proceeded to spend it with us, shooting.

Maybe it is the mindset of some people that all cops are bad and nothing good can ever come of the encounter. Peer pressure and the "No Snitch" thing is really prevalent in our cities and among some of our wanna be gangsters.

My mindset is that most police officers are decent people and do a crappy job with little to no respect. They have to follow policies they may or may not agree with and they are not lawyers. Why should I put them in a situation where neither one of us is going to come out ahead?

We have some current police officers on this forum and I am curious how you guys see people like this.

Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret · January 8, 2014, 12:58 PM

Quote:

They have to follow policies they may or may not agree with and they are not lawyers.

Some of them *do* know that the policy of blurring the lines between a detainment and a consentual conversation should get them in trouble but sometimes might not get them in trouble.

BuckRub · January 8, 2014, 01:21 PM

round here (Texas) it is legal to walk down side of road with a rifle or shotgun. So if I got called on to investigate a person with a gun to find out what this person is doing. First when I pull up my safety to myself is Im asking to see firearm. First thing first is Im asking to see firearm, second thing is I will get firearm ! If you then say you were walking to range, going to friends house, whatever - fine. But then I will call the firearm in because all I know is he just climbed out someones window...
If everything checks out, No problem - no charge youre on your merry way. Dont disrepect atthority, all youre doing is fixing to escatelate things that dont need to be.
If a officer asks to get your weapons in OR out of a vehicle - YOU MUST. Dont do like these two jerks do and get ready ! Some people do play like they're a lawyer or that they do have a right and thet're going to show officer to prove a point. You do have a right AFTER I get weapon, find out whats going on, make sure its yours and not stolen and then you are on your happy way.
You are displaying in a safe manner, Im safe when we are talking and its over.
I admit the officer in clip is nice as he should be. But first thing when rolling up on someone you dont know if hes legit, just killed his wife, or 35 kids at a school - At time of arrival you dont know so secure weapon and then hash things out. Sometimes if you watch videos of officers people say are nice sometimes end up dead or hurt. Plan on going home after every shift.

Wreck-n-Crew · January 8, 2014, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Nobody's being educated, and all it's doing is driving traffic to the author's YouTube page. Heck, the guy's not even carrying the rifle correctly.

Actually criminals are being educated . The three of them could all be criminals and walked away, If I were a criminal I could have learned something from it...

Quote:

This is where I struggle with open carry...

Me too and I open carry, just not a rifle and in the way they did.

To me there is a big difference in open carrying a pistol and a rifle on the psyche. The advantages to the rifle itself are apparent at just a glimpse. Had they all kept their pistols on their sides and carried on normally, people would have been less alarmed by it. Yet if they had done so they might not have gotten a response from Police which was their goal from the beginning.

Let me just say hats off to LE Jim on this one. Professionals like him really do shine positive light on what the job is all about. Way to represent Jim!

Exit_Wound · January 8, 2014, 04:33 PM

It just seems like poor manners to open carry anywhere but your own property or where you're reasonably certain you won't be perceived as the threat - in the woods, etc...

To use the previous term, where you're not carrying AT people...

LockedBreech · January 8, 2014, 04:44 PM

A two-word phrase explains the giant, glaring blind spot that bonehads like these overlook, and explains why they do us far, far more harm than good.

That phrase is: People vote.

Maybe they weren't going to care enough to vote in an upcoming local election. Maybe they wouldn't have been concerned about firearms enough to vote in favor of increasing gun regulations. They might now, though.

The average person is not a hardcore gun enthusiast. The average person who sees morons strolling along with rifles trying to provoke arguments with police probably does not like that behavior. They might dislike it enough to take political action to pass more gun laws in their region.

People like these aren't just annoying, they contribute to shifting the political scales against us.

Skans · January 8, 2014, 05:45 PM

You are always going to have people test the bounds of the law. I wouldn't get too worked up about this. The Cop in the video may or may not know this, but the way he handled the situation basically ensured that these three guys, and probably a lot of others, would have little interest in walking around carrying a sidearm and a an AR15 taking videos. They had their 60 seconds of excitement when the officer showed up and started to question them - that's what they wanted. The rest was uneventful and basically pretty "boring" for lack of a better word. Ok, now it's been done, posted on the internet for everyone to watch.

Also, the cops now have a good training video on how to handle these situations. Although, I think perhaps he should have had his own camera running and called for backup. Three armed, one with an AR against one cop with a sidearm - I wouldn't like those odd if things turned ugly.

January 7, 2014, 03:28 PM	#1
Exit_Wound Member Join Date: May 16, 2013 Posts: 28	Setting Gun Owners Back... Uuggghhhhh! I just wanted to post this video in the hopes that others here will share my outrage! What do they think they're accomplishing with this???!! Just because you have the right to act like a moron doesn't mean you should, right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N30TagPCNE4&sns=em

January 7, 2014, 05:23 PM	#3
KMAX Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 1,185	Saw this video in another post. I don't see how this could do us any good. The cop had more patience than I would have. Maybe it's a good thing I am not a cop. __________________ This is my gun. There are many like her, but this one is mine. I'm not old. I'm CLASSIC!

January 7, 2014, 05:33 PM	#5
lefteye Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Posts: 1,433	I suspect the officer (and the other officers in the background) were well aware of this stupid "demonstration" before the conversation even began. The officer's performance was truly outstanding. __________________ Vietnam Veteran ('69-'70) NRA Life Member RMEF Life Member

January 7, 2014, 05:50 PM	#7
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	So, here's my question: wouldn't we rather officers use the time and resources they have to patrol and apprehend criminals, or would we rather have them waste them dealing with this attention-craving idiocy? Nobody's being educated, and all it's doing is driving traffic to the author's YouTube page. Heck, the guy's not even carrying the rifle correctly. In the meantime, it's throwing a scare into people for no good reason. I'm reminded of a great recent quote from alumnus Tamara: there's a difference between just carrying a gun, and carrying a gun at people. That said, we've had more than a few of these threads lately, and I'm worried that we're just treading over the same ground yet again. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

January 7, 2014, 06:10 PM	#9
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I always ask - what would you do if you saw this person walk into the mall? What would you do if you saw this permission strolling into the movie theater? Into the Starbucks and they unslung the gun. Let's say (and based on the significant research on false alarm errors based on ethnic categories) - that the open carry AR advocate was a person of an ethnic or racial group other than caucasian. Racial discussions are problematic and usually against our rules when folks start blathering about how they don't like this or that group. But as I pointed out in an article I wrote for Pax in Concealed Carry, there's good evidence of more 'bad' shoots in simulation depending on group. Recall the outrage when men of color carried rifles to demonstrate their 2nd Amendment rights in CA, years ago. I can see this kind of behavior leading to a disaster. The abstract statement that rights are rights, doesn't mean that there won't be some bad things. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 7, 2014, 05:33 PM	#4
Fishing_Cabin Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2010 Posts: 720	I've seen the video before. Basically a couple of guys carrying a slung AR-15, while carrying a camera, and according to the first part of the video they said "...They are going out to exercise their rights with a rifle today.....and also to find professional, respectful and constitutional officers in the state of Oregon..." It was evidently after the shooting in Aurora Colorado, since it was mentioned in the video. Evidently by the officers comments they received several calls on them walking around in/around the sidewalk on what seems to be a fairly busy road. So, going from their words at the start of the video, the intent was interaction with law enforcement on some level. Judging from their objection to showing I.D. they evidently objected to the contact with LE they sought after it happened. Some things boggle my mind....

January 7, 2014, 05:38 PM	#6
AllenJ Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: Northern California Posts: 1,766	In my opinion stunts like this do more harm than good, especially giving the police officer a hard time like that. The law enforcement officer did an awesome job of not escalating the situation into an incident.

January 7, 2014, 05:56 PM	#8
Exit_Wound Member Join Date: May 16, 2013 Posts: 28	I really hope that the increase in these posts just means they are being brought to the surface more, and not that there are more uncouth gun owners out there! Don't mean to harp on it though... Ugh, it's really just an etiquette issue. Thanks for commiserating

January 7, 2014, 06:57 PM	#11
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	Good cop. Two stupid kids that think they are doing the gun community a service. Common sense tells ya that anyone walking around with a AR is going to panic some people. I will not get up on my soap box. __________________ Texas - Not just a state but an attitude! For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW

January 7, 2014, 08:29 PM	#12
BumbleBug Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2013 Location: Near Heart of Texas Posts: 870	First let me say that I would be concerned seeing guys wandering the streets with AR's. Yes, they are dummies & their effect on 2nd amendment rights I would definitely deem as negative. But the officer's response was quite interesting. Obviously, these "flaunting AR's because of their rights" activities have had an effect on LE officers. The officer was obviously cognizant of the law (perhaps refreshed recently) & had been coached on how to handle the situation. He got the info he needed & all was good & defused. I see that as a good thing. Remember all the other videos where even the slightest police resistance by a citizen turns them into "Bad Cop"? Sometimes I get so sick of people forcing things in my face to make a point. But indeed it is usually a point taken, either good or bad. In this case, bad in the context of RTKABA, but good in coaching the police on who works for who & why. JIMHO...

January 7, 2014, 09:27 PM	#13
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	My assessment : Three morons foolishly spending valuable tax dollars and resources with one very ,almost too affable of a cop.

January 7, 2014, 09:46 PM	#14
BuckRub Junior member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,046	How would it have changed if a passer byer called in and reported on 911 that these indivudals were aiming a rifle at people driving by ? I bet quite a bit different. And they do have a right to open carry as well as here in Texas But the officer arived on scence should have pulled up and asked to see gun, got gun and ran numbers to see if stolen. If he doesnt want to hand oper firearm when officer asks to see it, suffer consequences. Same as a officer telling someone to pull over. Best thing to do is submit. Or suffer consequences.... stupid guys like this do more harm than good.

January 7, 2014, 10:01 PM	#15
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	This is where I struggle with open carry... It would still be legal in some places if they were loaded, chambered and has a Tac vest full of ammo, right? Now, where can they go? If they go in anywhere, they can be legally asked to leave. This is where it gets sticky. If they are walking around patrol rifle style(horizontal), are they still legal. Depending on their actions....do they have the same right to yell and scream as we all do? I can see them drawing fire from LEO or CCW. That's why I don't like it. If you, I, we want to carry the 45 Colt on the hip hiking, walking in the park, back to the Walmart, I'm totally thrilled with that. Carrying my AR, spare mags, one in the pipe, like I'm going for coffee in Kabul...is a no go for me. Somehow that has moved from defensive to offensive IMNSHO.. The the whole ID thing...urrrgh. I as much as the next guy don't want to play the where are you going, where have you been, any weapons, any drugs, have you ever done something illegal conversation, but I show them my ID, because frankly it is the state's id.....they just let me hold it so I can show it and move on...lessening my detainment. I would always decline a search, I instruct my kids to do the same. I would always say no to any other check. Good thing I've never been stopped for DUI check. My point is, there is a line. I can't define it other than for myself. These guys are over my personal line.

January 7, 2014, 10:37 PM	#16
tynman Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Location: NJ Posts: 361	Let me just say 2 things 1 you cant fix stupid. 2 good job on the police officers side.

January 8, 2014, 10:55 AM	#18
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 1,416	^^^ I agree. It's a common request around here though. It seems to me a common thing with police and guns all over. But on topic, I thought the cop kept his cool rather well. Again, not what I would expect of the police around here.

January 8, 2014, 12:08 PM	#19
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	I open carry, not as frequently as I use to, due to cold weather and becoming a homebody for the winter. That being said: I always provide identification for the police officers when asked. (I usually will not consent to a vehicle search.) After I have made the officer feel safe, we can talk about my constitutional rights and such. I guess I am lucky, I live in rural Missouri and have contact with the sheriff and deputies both officially and un-officially. One of them walked down to the range at my house and asked what we were shooting. He called in to dispatch for his "Break" and proceeded to spend it with us, shooting. Maybe it is the mindset of some people that all cops are bad and nothing good can ever come of the encounter. Peer pressure and the "No Snitch" thing is really prevalent in our cities and among some of our wanna be gangsters. My mindset is that most police officers are decent people and do a crappy job with little to no respect. They have to follow policies they may or may not agree with and they are not lawyers. Why should I put them in a situation where neither one of us is going to come out ahead? We have some current police officers on this forum and I am curious how you guys see people like this. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

January 8, 2014, 01:21 PM	#21
BuckRub Junior member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,046	round here (Texas) it is legal to walk down side of road with a rifle or shotgun. So if I got called on to investigate a person with a gun to find out what this person is doing. First when I pull up my safety to myself is Im asking to see firearm. First thing first is Im asking to see firearm, second thing is I will get firearm ! If you then say you were walking to range, going to friends house, whatever - fine. But then I will call the firearm in because all I know is he just climbed out someones window... If everything checks out, No problem - no charge youre on your merry way. Dont disrepect atthority, all youre doing is fixing to escatelate things that dont need to be. If a officer asks to get your weapons in OR out of a vehicle - YOU MUST. Dont do like these two jerks do and get ready ! Some people do play like they're a lawyer or that they do have a right and thet're going to show officer to prove a point. You do have a right AFTER I get weapon, find out whats going on, make sure its yours and not stolen and then you are on your happy way. You are displaying in a safe manner, Im safe when we are talking and its over. I admit the officer in clip is nice as he should be. But first thing when rolling up on someone you dont know if hes legit, just killed his wife, or 35 kids at a school - At time of arrival you dont know so secure weapon and then hash things out. Sometimes if you watch videos of officers people say are nice sometimes end up dead or hurt. Plan on going home after every shift.

January 8, 2014, 04:33 PM	#23
Exit_Wound Member Join Date: May 16, 2013 Posts: 28	It just seems like poor manners to open carry anywhere but your own property or where you're reasonably certain you won't be perceived as the threat - in the woods, etc... To use the previous term, where you're not carrying AT people...

January 8, 2014, 04:44 PM	#24
LockedBreech Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Location: Rocky Mountain West Posts: 3,395	A two-word phrase explains the giant, glaring blind spot that bonehads like these overlook, and explains why they do us far, far more harm than good. That phrase is: People vote. Maybe they weren't going to care enough to vote in an upcoming local election. Maybe they wouldn't have been concerned about firearms enough to vote in favor of increasing gun regulations. They might now, though. The average person is not a hardcore gun enthusiast. The average person who sees morons strolling along with rifles trying to provoke arguments with police probably does not like that behavior. They might dislike it enough to take political action to pass more gun laws in their region. People like these aren't just annoying, they contribute to shifting the political scales against us. __________________ 16 Pistols, 5 Rifles, 1 Shotgun, no time to shoot them

January 8, 2014, 05:45 PM	#25
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	You are always going to have people test the bounds of the law. I wouldn't get too worked up about this. The Cop in the video may or may not know this, but the way he handled the situation basically ensured that these three guys, and probably a lot of others, would have little interest in walking around carrying a sidearm and a an AR15 taking videos. They had their 60 seconds of excitement when the officer showed up and started to question them - that's what they wanted. The rest was uneventful and basically pretty "boring" for lack of a better word. Ok, now it's been done, posted on the internet for everyone to watch. Also, the cops now have a good training video on how to handle these situations. Although, I think perhaps he should have had his own camera running and called for backup. Three armed, one with an AR against one cop with a sidearm - I wouldn't like those odd if things turned ugly.