Short Barrel Rifle question....

rjrivero · July 12, 2010, 02:09 PM

I have a question.

I'm building a AR style SBR. I will have a sbr upper and a standard length upper for this particular rifle.

Occassionally, I shoot in Michigan which doesn't allow SBRs. Can I bring the lower which is registered as a SBR into Michigan with a 16" upper on it?

Obviously it's still on the NFA Registry as a SBR, but will be wearing it's 16" barrel for any shooting in Michigan.

I just want to make sure I'm 100% LEGIT before I make a stoopid error. I guess it wouldn't kill me to get another lower and have two complete rifles, but I am just asking out loud.

Thanks in advance.

flight954 · July 12, 2010, 03:45 PM

If Michigan doesn't allow SBR's, then I wouldn't take the chance bringing the registered part of the rifle/SBR into Michigan. Buy a complete lower for your rifle length upper, you can find them inexpensive these days.

rjrivero · July 12, 2010, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flight954

If Michigan doesn't allow SBR's, then I wouldn't take the chance bringing the registered part of the rifle/SBR into Michigan. Buy a complete lower for your rifle length upper, you can find them inexpensive these days.

I agree with you, but the rifle in question is a 9mm carbine built on a Lone Wolf Distributors Lower that uses Glock Magazines. It's still not TERRIBLY expensive, but more than just any old AR lower. Not to mention, my first one took 4 months to receive from back order.

Willie Lowman · July 12, 2010, 05:27 PM

It doesn't mater how rare your lower is. Michigan state law does not allow SBRs. You could probably get away with taking the registered SBR lower with a full length upper but it would still be illegal.

Zak Smith · July 12, 2010, 06:22 PM

They wouldn't approve your 5320.20 anyway. You were going to file that, right?

Hkmp5sd · July 12, 2010, 06:29 PM

As Zak Smith indirectly implied, ATF will not let you take your SBR into Michigan. NFA items (except suppressors and AOWs, if I recall correctly) require prior approval from ATF before travelling out of your home state. Hence the reference to ATF Form 5320.20.

rjrivero · July 12, 2010, 10:15 PM

Zak,

That's an excellent point. The 5320 would be the big issue. What was I thinking......

Speedy Warrior · July 13, 2010, 10:22 AM

I think you would be ok because once the upper that is over 16" is on the lower it is NO LONGER a sbr.
The problem you willl have if you have a second lower is that you COULD make an unregistered sbr with the parts in your home. The atf could prosicute for intent even though thats not what is was, it has been talked about in other threads. Stay safe and as a last resort call the local atf office.

Speedy

Rebok87 · July 13, 2010, 01:09 PM

The Lower is what is registered as the SBR. You may not take it to shoot in a state that restricts ownership regardless of the barrel length. From my understanding, you may travel through Michigan with a 5320.20 but you cannot visit there with your SBR and shoot it.

demigod · July 14, 2010, 03:13 PM

Totally illegal. Would anyone ever know? I doubt it.

Just buy another non NFA AR lower, Cleatus!!

rjrivero · July 14, 2010, 05:22 PM

I spoke with the Firearms Division of the Michigan State Police. They don't care if it's on the NFA registry or not. As long as you don't have the short barrel with you, an AR with a 16" barrel is fully allowed in Michigan.

I am waiting on a call back from the NFA division of ATF. I'm not sure if they'll approve a 5320.20 or not, but I'm going to discuss it with them. Standby.

Hkmp5sd · July 14, 2010, 05:25 PM

Word of advice. Get everything in writing. Especially from ATF. They frequently change their mind, depending on the person you talk to, the day of the week, the weather...

rjrivero · July 14, 2010, 05:27 PM

Thanks for the advice. I am going to make sure I know who I'm talking to, and will refer to them when I send in the 5320.20.

rjrivero · July 14, 2010, 07:34 PM

Looks like if I leave the barrel at HOME, I don't even have to get a 5320.20 to transport a registered SBR LOWER across state lines.

Crankylove · July 14, 2010, 09:29 PM

Looks like it would be legit, but wouldn't hurt to get a notorized copy of that letter to carry with you on your trips to MI.

n7qvu · July 15, 2010, 07:59 AM

All ATF letters that I have saw in the past have a signature on them with a title of the signer???

Speedy Warrior · July 15, 2010, 11:26 AM

Sorry not to be an a**. Have two uppers and ONE lower. You should be good.

rjrivero · July 15, 2010, 02:12 PM

I appreciate everyone's advice on this issue.

I have sent a letter to verify the information from the 2007 letter is indeed correct. I will post when it comes back.

I have also sent a letter to the Michigan State Police Firearms division to get their opinion in writing as well.

I just want to BE SURE that I'm not breaking any laws whatsoever. It's not always easy being legal, but it is worth the effort. Thanks one and all for your opinions and feedback!

GoingQuiet · July 16, 2010, 01:32 AM

"Looks like it would be legit, but wouldn't hurt to get a notorized copy of that letter to carry with you on your trips to MI."

Notoriety = bad
Notary = Public

Besides that - YOU CANT NOTARIZE A LETTER FROM THE ATF. There isn't a signature, affidavit or anything resembling an oath to notarize.

<--- Notary Public

n7qvu · July 16, 2010, 02:37 PM

Maybe a "certified copy".
A Notary Public(I R 1), can make a copy and notarize that it's exactly like the original. Often FFLs use certified copies of their license. ie Certified copy of a birth cert. You get the point.

GoingQuiet · July 17, 2010, 09:42 PM

Depending on your state notary rules, I'll have to look to see if FL allows a copy - but why notarize a copy? Just keep the original with you.

July 12, 2010, 02:09 PM	#1
rjrivero Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 1,399	Short Barrel Rifle question.... I have a question. I'm building a AR style SBR. I will have a sbr upper and a standard length upper for this particular rifle. Occassionally, I shoot in Michigan which doesn't allow SBRs. Can I bring the lower which is registered as a SBR into Michigan with a 16" upper on it? Obviously it's still on the NFA Registry as a SBR, but will be wearing it's 16" barrel for any shooting in Michigan. I just want to make sure I'm 100% LEGIT before I make a stoopid error. I guess it wouldn't kill me to get another lower and have two complete rifles, but I am just asking out loud. Thanks in advance.

July 12, 2010, 05:27 PM	#4
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	It doesn't mater how rare your lower is. Michigan state law does not allow SBRs. You could probably get away with taking the registered SBR lower with a full length upper but it would still be illegal. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

July 12, 2010, 06:22 PM	#5
Zak Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 1999 Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA Posts: 2,682	They wouldn't approve your 5320.20 anyway. You were going to file that, right? __________________ Zak Smith . DEMIGOD LLC . THUNDER BEAST ARMS CORP . COLORADO MULTI-GUN *My PM inbox full? Send e-mail instead.*

July 12, 2010, 06:29 PM	#6
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	As Zak Smith indirectly implied, ATF will not let you take your SBR into Michigan. NFA items (except suppressors and AOWs, if I recall correctly) require prior approval from ATF before travelling out of your home state. Hence the reference to ATF Form 5320.20. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

July 12, 2010, 10:15 PM	#7
rjrivero Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 1,399	RE: 5320 Zak, That's an excellent point. The 5320 would be the big issue. What was I thinking......

July 12, 2010, 03:45 PM	#2
flight954 Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2006 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 933	If Michigan doesn't allow SBR's, then I wouldn't take the chance bringing the registered part of the rifle/SBR into Michigan. Buy a complete lower for your rifle length upper, you can find them inexpensive these days.

July 13, 2010, 10:22 AM	#8
Speedy Warrior Member Join Date: March 23, 2010 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 30	I think you would be ok because once the upper that is over 16" is on the lower it is NO LONGER a sbr. The problem you willl have if you have a second lower is that you COULD make an unregistered sbr with the parts in your home. The atf could prosicute for intent even though thats not what is was, it has been talked about in other threads. Stay safe and as a last resort call the local atf office. Speedy __________________ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -Thomas Jefferson

July 13, 2010, 01:09 PM	#9
Rebok87 Member Join Date: December 14, 2009 Location: Columbia,SC Posts: 60	The Lower is what is registered as the SBR. You may not take it to shoot in a state that restricts ownership regardless of the barrel length. From my understanding, you may travel through Michigan with a 5320.20 but you cannot visit there with your SBR and shoot it.

July 14, 2010, 03:13 PM	#10
demigod Junior member Join Date: March 13, 2008 Location: AZ Posts: 1,129	Totally illegal. Would anyone ever know? I doubt it. Just buy another non NFA AR lower, Cleatus!!

July 14, 2010, 05:22 PM	#11
rjrivero Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 1,399	Interesting update: I spoke with the Firearms Division of the Michigan State Police. They don't care if it's on the NFA registry or not. As long as you don't have the short barrel with you, an AR with a 16" barrel is fully allowed in Michigan. I am waiting on a call back from the NFA division of ATF. I'm not sure if they'll approve a 5320.20 or not, but I'm going to discuss it with them. Standby.

July 14, 2010, 05:25 PM	#12
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	Word of advice. Get everything in writing. Especially from ATF. They frequently change their mind, depending on the person you talk to, the day of the week, the weather... __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

July 14, 2010, 05:27 PM	#13
rjrivero Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 1,399	Thanks for the advice. I am going to make sure I know who I'm talking to, and will refer to them when I send in the 5320.20.

July 14, 2010, 07:34 PM	#14
rjrivero Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 1,399	Another interesting discovery: Looks like if I leave the barrel at HOME, I don't even have to get a 5320.20 to transport a registered SBR LOWER across state lines.

July 14, 2010, 09:29 PM	#15
Crankylove Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2008 Location: 8B ID Posts: 1,752	Looks like it would be legit, but wouldn't hurt to get a notorized copy of that letter to carry with you on your trips to MI. __________________ The answer to 1984 is 1776

July 15, 2010, 07:59 AM	#16
n7qvu Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2009 Location: Overgaard, AZ USA Posts: 153	All ATF letters that I have saw in the past have a signature on them with a title of the signer??? __________________ Jerry W. NRA Instructor: Pistol, Home Safety, Personal Protection, RSO, Reloading. NRA Life Member, NRA-ILA Sustaining Member, AZ CCW training org. & instructor, AZ HE instructor. JWsGUNs.com FFL-07, NFA SOT-C2.

July 15, 2010, 11:26 AM	#17
Speedy Warrior Member Join Date: March 23, 2010 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 30	Vindicated Sorry not to be an a**. Have two uppers and ONE lower. You should be good. __________________ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -Thomas Jefferson

July 15, 2010, 02:12 PM	#18
rjrivero Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 1,399	Just to be sure: I appreciate everyone's advice on this issue. I have sent a letter to verify the information from the 2007 letter is indeed correct. I will post when it comes back. I have also sent a letter to the Michigan State Police Firearms division to get their opinion in writing as well. I just want to BE SURE that I'm not breaking any laws whatsoever. It's not always easy being legal, but it is worth the effort. Thanks one and all for your opinions and feedback!

July 16, 2010, 01:32 AM	#19
GoingQuiet Member Join Date: July 1, 2010 Location: Melbourne, FL Posts: 92	"Looks like it would be legit, but wouldn't hurt to get a notorized copy of that letter to carry with you on your trips to MI." Notoriety = bad Notary = Public Besides that - YOU CANT NOTARIZE A LETTER FROM THE ATF. There isn't a signature, affidavit or anything resembling an oath to notarize. <--- Notary Public __________________ FFL/SOT Melbourne, FL - Sales by appointment. [email protected] Sig Sauer Stocking Dealer Silencerco Stocking Distributor

July 16, 2010, 02:37 PM	#20
n7qvu Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2009 Location: Overgaard, AZ USA Posts: 153	Maybe a "certified copy". A Notary Public(I R 1), can make a copy and notarize that it's exactly like the original. Often FFLs use certified copies of their license. ie Certified copy of a birth cert. You get the point. __________________ Jerry W. NRA Instructor: Pistol, Home Safety, Personal Protection, RSO, Reloading. NRA Life Member, NRA-ILA Sustaining Member, AZ CCW training org. & instructor, AZ HE instructor. JWsGUNs.com FFL-07, NFA SOT-C2.

July 17, 2010, 09:42 PM	#21
GoingQuiet Member Join Date: July 1, 2010 Location: Melbourne, FL Posts: 92	Depending on your state notary rules, I'll have to look to see if FL allows a copy - but why notarize a copy? Just keep the original with you. __________________ FFL/SOT Melbourne, FL - Sales by appointment. [email protected] Sig Sauer Stocking Dealer Silencerco Stocking Distributor

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