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Old August 25, 2016, 09:04 PM   #26
DPI7800
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Not a great comparison, in my opinion as a trainer. I would compare a martial arts program the does not have sparing the equivalent of going to regular firearms training that only does dry fire and never advocates doing anything else.
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Old August 26, 2016, 12:57 PM   #27
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Especially nowadays where so much safety equipment is available to protect students.
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Old August 26, 2016, 01:02 PM   #28
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I agree James K.

One of the occasionally frustrating things about students learning "techniques" is that a lot of them seem to think that some "technique" is the ultimate end-result and goal, in and of itself, and isn't merely a transitional learning technique that's supposed to lead to smooth, subconsciously applied competency as may be required for conditions (even when the conditions are evolving, changing and may be chaotic).
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Old August 26, 2016, 02:38 PM   #29
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I was just recently reading a thread on the subject on Pistol Forum, the late T.L. Green's shop. One coach said "think street, train sport, practice the art".

I summarize, if you can't shoot, how will you shoot back?
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Old August 26, 2016, 04:41 PM   #30
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One coach said "think street, train sport, practice the art".
Nice version. Practical and grounded.

There's one in the arts which basically describes the transition of students as studying "fighting", then technique, then art, and finally spirit.

Fighting = Basic defense-oriented skills
Technique = Higher refinement of physical skills
Art = Seeing and understanding the meaning underlying technique
Spirit = Integration of understanding technique, art & self, on the path to spiritual enlightenment
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Old August 29, 2016, 02:23 PM   #31
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My Brain works on MANY LEVELS Unfortunately my Elevator just does not get to those Levels sometimes..

Some very good info guys thanks.
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Old August 31, 2016, 07:09 PM   #32
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I have shot competitively off and on for over 20 years, and focus more now on tactical training instead of USPSA/IDPA. One of the reasons for that is after 20 years of shooting to win matches, a lot of bad habits developed that interfere with shooting to survive, like in a match putting the muzzle past the barricade to engage targets when real world putting the muzzle past a wall or doorway into a room or hallway that has not been cleared could result in your firearm being taken away from you.

Also as I age and grow a lower tolerance for silliness , I notice at most matches I have recently attended it was a little bit of shooting, a lot of waiting, with arguing in between.

All the best,
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Old September 1, 2016, 07:45 PM   #33
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Very good points..

gun games seem to mimic self defense situations only to the degree that its entertaining and not really in a manner that I would consider strategic or practical. I am not saying that it should but a lot of people seem to think its all the same thing when really, its not.
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Old September 3, 2016, 12:31 PM   #34
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Very interesting discussions, opinions.

Opinion on IDPA. You must use the same pistol you carry, same holster.

Factory rounds, not the expensive hollow points you carry! But similar recoil, and point of aim. And no string vests! My Florida shirts work fine in the coffee shop, or match. The lock back reload is great practice.

My best training? Five years, part time Bouncer in the Clubs in Liverpool UK, most every weekend. Learning to instantly respond to threat (now in the early sixty's, we started nearly all fights) watching people is a great pastime.

Carry always! Sitting here now in my old ratty gown, Glock 19, one in the pipe, in pocket, and Cell IPhone, in the other.

Gaming? No Glock or other target model, the 19 is small enough, full enough, 16 up. TruGlo sights, most trouble comes in poor light. And you might need a bunch of rounds! Firing 4 rounds into someone's upper chest, and move? A Chiefs Special? You have one round left, not so good.
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Old September 7, 2016, 02:46 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireForged
One of the other soldiers who was there stated that the reason the kid would lose his matches was because he was dancing and his opponent was fighting.
That analogy breaks down because in practicing forms and kata, you are not actually hitting anything or anybody.

This would be like if USPSA or IDPA didn't have scoring zones or timers and just graded competitors on their form in gun handling as they dumped rounds into the dirt.

One thing that I've noted with almost one-hundred percent correlation over the years is that people who shun the various action shooting sports because "training scars" or whatnot can't shoot on the clock in front of people.

I'll reiterate my quote from Brian Searcy:
Quote:
"Having shot almost every type of competetive [sic] sport from skeet to bull's-eye to Service Rifle and IPSC, Searcy believes it is impossible to improve without shooting in competition, as you will inevitably plateau if shooting only on a square range by yourself. The stress of being against the clock, against other shooters and having an audience watch you forces you to develop the mental management necessary to execute the correct subconscious weapons handling skills under pressure."
It's not about being a "combat simulation", it's about developing the skills necessary to run your gun at speed and under pressure with a minimum of brainpower put into the basic gun-handling skills of hitting the target, keeping the gun running, and not setting yourself on fire.
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Old September 7, 2016, 07:30 PM   #36
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The point being that if you know how to perform "moves" but do not understand how to apply those moves practically, tactically or the strategics behind the method... it can be called a dance. I was basically offering a true story as an idiom and not to be dissected into literalness.

Quote:
It's not about being a "combat simulation", it's about developing the skills necessary to run your gun at speed and under pressure with a minimum of brainpower put into the basic gun-handling skills of hitting the target, keeping the gun running, and not setting yourself on fire.
if you are talking about the context of a game and game play, I agree. If the point is to develop self defense skills, I would say that context is important and without property context, which includes correct strategics, its not really training. Although I concede that it is training for more competition which mimics self defense situations in a nuancical way .
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Old October 18, 2016, 01:49 PM   #37
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It teaches some useful skills. It does induce stress. But I think that it is essential to include some type of force on force training. With the advent of airsoft and other systems of the like you actually get to fight with a gun similar to the one you carry. Against a live target that is actually trying to out think and out shoot you. That's about as good as it get's and maintain some type of safety.
Clearing jammed weapons, reloads, so on all good. But still no bad guy makes a timers noise that I know of before an attack. But like most things add everything you can to your bag of tricks. As one of my instructors once said. "You may not like what the other guy is doing. But you damn well better know what he's doing"!
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Old October 18, 2016, 02:58 PM   #38
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I had to get to advanced self defense classes before they taught me anything that I wasn't far better at due to competition.

If we are limiting this to your average Joe Blow walking down the street: frankly most of it way overkill (pardon the pun).
They need (based on my years of experience as an internet grandmaster ninja):
*training to help with situational awareness, to avoid the situation.
*training to help pre think several simple key scenarios, and warning signs associated with them, to again avoid the situation or better have an idea of when and how to react.
*how to draw and shoot quickly.

Force on force, dynamic entry etc etc. are all excellent, but way overboard for what is needed for the average Joe. I don't need to know how to slice the pie and use door frames to advantage if I am going to sit in a secure position with 911 online while pointing a shotgun at the only entry.
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Old October 18, 2016, 07:15 PM   #39
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Force on force, dynamic entry etc etc. are all excellent, but way overboard for what is needed for the average Joe. I don't need to know how to slice the pie and use door frames to advantage if I am going to sit in a secure position with 911 online while pointing a shotgun at the only entry.
oh my..

I am sure that as long as you expect to have complete command of the situation, you surely will.
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Old October 18, 2016, 07:55 PM   #40
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Guns can be used for sport and they can be used for SD.

I think initially the IDPA had good intentions but has turned more towards a sporting event. That's not to say it offers no merit to practical gun handling under stress. But as has been mentioned I think it can also induce a lot of bad habits.

I had been considering getting into IDPA for a while but as of lately am more interested in tactical SD training, and am looking into places that offer it.


I won't look down on what anyone does but there's definitely a difference between a sporting event and SD training.
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Old October 18, 2016, 08:44 PM   #41
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that is a very reasonable way to state it.
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Old October 18, 2016, 10:43 PM   #42
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Hi, Fastbolt,

My point is that "learning techniques" may be fine for game playing, but I have never been sure why or how it translates to the real world for those who may need to protect themselves or others. Not only is the sporting training not the ultimate end-result and goal, but it is not always even applicable and can actually prevent taking the necessary action by having rules, scenario training and treating the whole exercise as a sport.

Sports training, which we are talking about (the fact that the "tool" is a gun, not a baseball bat, is irrelevant), differs from the real world not in having rules, but that in the real world there are no rules. The rules in baseball (to use that example), say you cannot trip the runner, hit him with the bat, throw the ball at him, or knock him down and cut his throat. In the nasty real world, you can, and might have to, do any or all of those things - there are no rules and the loser dies. Of course, no training will involve serious damage to your opponent - but most "training" is so unrealistic as to be, IMHO, next to useless in a real nasty situation when the opponent is not a paper target and the "bad guy" with a 5x hole in him just might kill you.

Jim
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Old October 19, 2016, 06:02 AM   #43
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and the "bad guy" with a 5x hole in him just might kill you.
Thats why you put more holes in them until the threat is ended. Unless you have a .45 acp of course, in which case even a near miss can be fatal.
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Old October 19, 2016, 06:33 AM   #44
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If you are talking about the context of a game and game play, I agree. If the point is to develop self defense skills, I would say that context is important and without property context, which includes correct strategics, its not really training. Although I concede that it is training for more competition which mimics self defense situations in a nuancical way.
Agree with the first part of this, but competitive gun-games "mimic self-defense situations" not at all. They may help re-inforce good or bad gun-handling habits, and get folks acquainted with shooting on the move, but that's about it.

Without actually shooting a real-life threat on the street, the absolutely closest training for SD situations is still 2-way (or multiple partner) force-on-force training that employs simunition projectiles from real-world firearms. Those projectiles can sting on impact, so you know when you're hit, which means you know when you screwed-up.

Running scenarios in that training environment against similarly armed opponents forces you to employ all the factors/variables/tactics that might occur on the street ... or in your home: proper use of cover, clearing tactics if working through halls and rooms inside a structure. ... Or, in one-on-one, in-your-face "street assault" scenarios, the use of some gun-fu - i.e., initial off-hand jabs/off-elbow strikes/push-aways, etc., to get distance, followed by drawing your weapon, and/or to prevent a gun-grab, etc.

For those defaulting to the martial-arts analogies, the closest legal real-world fighting we have that mimics what an unarmed physical assault on the street really looks like (with bloody cuts, contusions, fractured bones, et. al) is MMA. It should be an Olympic sport, in my opinion, as the best of MMA's practitioners incorporate a repertoire of fluid but "street effective" techniques - strikes, kicks, grappling and, most importantly, ground fighting.

And it's not one thing; it's many things. That's why for decades the Gracie Jujitsu family could defeat larger, stronger opponents who were skilled experts in only one discipline: boxers, or 3rd degree Karate black belts. They lacked any training in the other effective skill-sets. Try putting your best "Kata King" in the Octogon with Tito Ortiz.

Similarly (back to real-world armed defense), the best training for surviving a gunfight on the street or in your home is training that as closely as possible mimics a gunfight without maiming or killing anyone. So far, the best & safest we have isn't IDPA or IPSC, where gun-gamers shoot against static targets or at least targets that don't fire back.

It's going to be training against a human opponent(s) armed with simunitions, air-soft, paintball-type weapons, role-playing as the aggressor or the defender, who's got a plan, tactics, and is seeking an end-result, just like you.

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Old October 19, 2016, 12:07 PM   #45
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It mimics self defense situations in that it may look like Sd and smell like Sd but you simply are not responding in the way you would to a real threat. Gun games are a highly regulated and timed tango... run run run, hop on one foot, lean over here, bang bang..lean over there bang bang bang.. stand right here and reload, pretend you are using cover, run run run over there, plant your feet and lean this way..bang bang bang, lean that way.,.bang bang bang. Its a timed tango with no concept of the survival element to combat. Is it skillful?.. sure.. is it fighting training?.. No.

I am not critical of what gun games are.. I am not critical of people who are masterful at them.. I acknowledge and applauded their skill. I am critical of the suggesting that gun games are a version of armed fighting training. I don't feel it is.
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Old October 19, 2016, 12:08 PM   #46
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The major reason we do poor training is that most of us simply don't "think right" (or maybe "wrong"). Years ago, I saw a WWII film on Commando training. It showed a "green" trainee facing the "expert" (Fairbairn?). The instructor walked up to the newbie. The soldier came to attention and started to salute, but the instructor did some "magic" and the trainee ended on the ground with the instructor's knee in his back and a "knife" being drawn across his throat.

Lesson one: Always be alert - you can be attacked at any time by anyone.

That may be more than a bit extreme - no sane person would advocate going around killing everyone who approaches us too closely, but being alert is always good practice.

During my basic training, the platoon sergeant was a "retread" from the WWII 101 Airborne Division, a small but wiry type who looked like a mild mannered office clerk. But one morning, a trainee from LA, reportedly a street thug and gang member, responded to the wakeup call by rolling out of his bunk with a knife in his hand, apparently his normal response to being wakened unexpectedly. A second later, he was sliding down the wall with a broken collar bone, a broken arm and two broken ribs, courtesy of the "office clerk".

Remember, learned skills are not easily unlearned, something to keep in mind when training in a normally peaceful environment.

Jim
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Old October 19, 2016, 12:40 PM   #47
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It's going to be training against a human opponent(s) armed with simunitions, air-soft, paintball-type weapons, role-playing as the aggressor or the defender, who's got a plan, tactics, and is seeking an end-result, just like you.
And do they have this training at least once a week? I find at least one IDPA USPSA competition a week, not to mention practicing for such.

Who exactly is your target market for all this?
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Old October 19, 2016, 01:13 PM   #48
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Force on force is an intrical part of self defense related training. Are people doing it weekly? like anything else, I guess you could if you desire it, have the time and money.

Force on force is typically the last segment of a multi day course. You use the tactics, strategics and methods learned in practical training and apply them to a realistic scenario with real people.

Who is the market directed at? People who want to learn to lawfully defend themselves in an armed confrontation against the violent criminal.
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Old October 19, 2016, 01:52 PM   #49
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Quote:
Quote:It's going to be training against a human opponent(s) armed with simunitions, air-soft, paintball-type weapons, role-playing as the aggressor or the defender, who's got a plan, tactics, and is seeking an end-result, just like you.

Quote:
And do they have this training at least once a week? I find at least one IDPA USPSA competition a week, not to mention practicing for such.
There are plenty of tactical firearms school out there that offer civilians 1-day or 2-day courses on Force-on-Force training. Yeah, maybe it's not every week, and maybe interested folks could only afford one or two courses a year, but that's where having a couple of similarly-motivated friends is real helpful in pursuing this type of training more frequently, or in between taking formal courses. It could be air-soft guns that mimic the look & feel of what you actually carry (a Glock or Sig, for example) or paint-ball guns, and then just find a place to do it.

Bear in mind that bad-guys and street thugs are getting real world "training" in some form or fashion every day, and especially on the weekends - look at Chicago - only their victims change.

Quote:
Who exactly is your target market for all this?
Any law-abiding, lawfully armed citizen who's serious about coming out a confrontation on the street alive or successfully repelling a home invasion.
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Old October 19, 2016, 01:52 PM   #50
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That seems...extreme...for John Q Public, both in practice and legally.

Clearing rooms etc. are not advised for the average homeowner.

Again this appears to be a false comparison. I compete with police, military, and the local county's marksmanship unit. I'm not seeing anyone equate a USPSA competition with actual training, but I'd much rather take an active competitor vs. someone who took a class a year ago (not counting that the competitor probably took the same class as well as they tend to be gun junkies).

Legally the available scenarios I can lawfully use lethal force are severely restricted, and with good reason. That reduces down to a few scenarios-most of which come down to doing other protective actions than self defense (leaving the area etc.). Of those scenarios where self defense remains applicable, these competitions help substantial portions-fast, accurate shooting, drawing from concealment, or in my last match shooting from a ladder (because hey why not ). Of the multiple self defense classes I've taken, I'd proffer 90% was helpful to self defense.

I think of them as skills and drills for a variety of self defense basics:
*drawing.
*shooting fast and accurately.
*extremely fast reloading or clearing a firearm.
*moving quickly / reloading while moving /not looking at your firearm.
*shooting multiple targets.
*shooting at moving targets.
*shooting in the dark (advantages of indoor range competitions)-very trippy.

Are they a replacement for advanced self defense tactics? Of course not. I don't think even your best gamer thinks that. Do even basic self defense classes add a different element? of course. but competition allows you to deal with the "higher level" issues, instead of back at the level of thinking about the the basics like drawing your firearm.
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