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October 30, 2008, 09:30 PM | #1 |
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Chuck Taylor on Competition.
This from the new edition of G&A Personal Defense magazine...
"And yet, much of what has appeared in the last four decades is relatively worthless for self defense because it's the result of competition target shooting in one form or the other. from good old-fashioned bullseye competition to PPC shooting to IPSC and it's related endeavors, competition has contributed little to useful self defense. ...Competition shooting allows the participant to examine the course of fire, determine how best to deal with it and even practice it in advance until he feels he has reached an acceptable efficiency level.....In combat the opposite is true, which is why for well over 100 years, competition shooting techniques have always failed to save lives when applied to life and death situations. Self defense is a serious business, a business in which ego drive, the primary motivator of all forms of competition, can quite literally get you killed. Please understand that I have nothing against competition. in fact, I was once a world class IPSC shooter, but sport shooting did not teach me how to stay alive in the multiple gunfights I've been in during my lifetime... ..Again, in spite of what some competition shooters think, I am not anti-competition. On the other hand, having been both a sucessful competitor and a survivor of multiple gunfights, I believe that I am uniquely qualified to judge the difference, which is nothing less than extreme.... ..Competition is fine, but let's not call it combat. To do otherwise is just plain wrong--dangerously wrong, in fact." ( pg 20-22) |
October 30, 2008, 09:37 PM | #2 | |
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October 31, 2008, 12:27 PM | #3 | ||
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October 31, 2008, 01:04 PM | #4 |
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To be honest, I didn't realize that was a big secret. Competition and combat are two very different animals. Some of the fundamentals certainly carry over and competition (being a form of practice) can make you better at those basic tasks, but the two aren't 100% interchangeable. Never have been.
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October 31, 2008, 01:11 PM | #5 | |
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October 31, 2008, 01:28 PM | #6 |
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Don't get me wrong- we agree. I guess I just haven't talked to anyone who thought that their .8 sec IPSC mag changes were going to win them combat gunfights. I know plenty of people who compete for the fun of it and to keep their raw skills sharp, but they all know what translates and what doesn't. That's what I meant by me not realizing it was a secret.
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October 31, 2008, 02:27 PM | #7 |
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Someone should probably tell all those SWAT teams and federal agencies that all that stuff that guys like Todd Jarrett are teaching them is totally wrong because it was learned in competition.
Reminds me of the "combatives vs. MMA" debate in the martial arts community. I'm not knocking Chuck, mind you; however it's kind of silly to outright dismiss competition shooting as a method of training simply because of personal experiences.
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October 31, 2008, 02:45 PM | #8 | |
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I know many people who can go to the driving range and hit beautiful looking golf shots all day long, but then they get stomped into the ground when they go head to head with someone "for real." Some people can do martial arts routines pefectly and they look really good, then they get demolished by someone who just knows how to "fight". Is that to say that a golfer shouldn't ever go to the range or that a fighter shouldn't get some mat/bag work in? Not at all. What it does say though is that there's a major difference between "not for real" and "for real" and people shouldn't handicap themselves by thinking that because they can do one thing in competition/practice, they'll be able to use the same application in a "for real" situation. |
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October 31, 2008, 03:13 PM | #9 | |
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October 31, 2008, 03:17 PM | #10 | |
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October 31, 2008, 04:36 PM | #11 |
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I think that Taylor is talking about someone who's ONLY experience/training is with competition and instructors who teach solely competition methods.
Quite a few serious men with impressive service records also compete with no ill effect, but they are in a position to know the difference. |
October 31, 2008, 05:01 PM | #12 |
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You definately need to know the difference. I think some people do, and some don't. To dismiss competition and to say if offers no value to a persons gun handling skills is a naive statement. Competition is "practice" . It is not "training". Understanding the difference between the two is crucial. Competion builds skill that most will not get otherwise. For the most part, it does not offer "real life" tactics, but it does offer practice in gun handling skills under "some" simulated stress. I say compete, AND train, just make sure you know the difference.
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October 31, 2008, 05:17 PM | #13 | |
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Some of the tactics and concepts posted on gun forums can be good, and some can be fatal, if applied in an armed confrontation. |
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October 31, 2008, 05:50 PM | #14 |
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If ya'll want to see the "competition vs. real life" argument taken to it's insane extreme sometime, head over to the forums at Bullshido.com and check out the guys arguing about which is better for "real fights", practice combatives or Mixed Martial Arts competition.
My big concern as an active competitor is that some people are too fast to dismiss the lessons learned in competition because "it's not a real gunfight". I'd hope that most people are smart enough to realize that smoking down pepper poppers and reloading in 1.3 seconds aren't the same as actually having bullets fly past your dome. However, they do reinforce skills that are useful in those situations, like shooting on the move, multiple rapid target engagement, and even quick reloading skills. It's just frustrating when certain groups act like because it's not "a gunfight" it's automatically invalid.
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October 31, 2008, 07:04 PM | #15 |
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Only thing that puzzles me guys is why the DEA, FBI, SS, SEALS, Marines, SF, etc.. actually have such as Letham teach classes and they learn from what the 'games' people show them. Why they might get killed learning all that stuff!
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October 31, 2008, 07:35 PM | #16 | |
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Taylor is OK. but I'm calling BS on this one and just exactly who are these people who can't differentiate between ISPC, IDPA, etc and having someone shooting back trying to kill you anyway?
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October 31, 2008, 09:40 PM | #17 |
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If I'm not mistaken, Jim Cirillo was a top PPC shooter. He got all his trophies BEFORE he joined the stakeout squad. He was a police instructor on the range and not beat cop. He had never fired a weapon at anyone before the stakeout squad.
And then he capped three of them all the while 'seeing the front sight'. Hmmm I wonder if all that competition shooting he did had any effect on being able to shoot all three so fast.
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October 31, 2008, 11:43 PM | #18 | ||
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October 31, 2008, 11:53 PM | #19 | |
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October 31, 2008, 11:57 PM | #20 | |
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November 1, 2008, 12:55 AM | #21 |
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Guess I am just totally out to lunch on this. I believe competition is what humans do to hone the edge of the weapon.
In the time of the great tournaments, (in between great wars) combatants from different city states conducted mock battles (actually fairly real) for the joy and adoration of the crowds, the weight of another’s armor (if you won) and to test the edge of your sword against another’s shield. This was stylized war, but it reinforced the basic skills. The great age of archers, constantly tested in battle and on the lists, used competition to keep the skills of alignment and release sharp and focused. A jingle of the purse, stills the blood and focuses the eye. Again nowhere close to volley fire at a forward moving enemy, whom wished to shred you if they could close, but it did reinforce the foundation skills. The age of firearms has seem it’s share of martial competition not only to establish the best, but to keep the edge. I my years as a peace officer I can not remember a firearms qualification either PPC or practical that did not have bragging rights as part of the qualification score. Competition kept those courses from becoming mental masturbation exercises. Not street combat, but reinforced the needed basic skills. I have been both a street shooter and a competition shooter and for me the basic skills that I honed on the square range helped me on the street. Scattergun Bob says; “Once the combat envelope wraps its' cold clammy arms around you, there is more than enough to think about besides how your weapon works, what condition of readiness IT IS IN, or where it shoots.”
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November 1, 2008, 01:23 AM | #22 | |
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November 1, 2008, 01:48 AM | #23 |
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Good points Bob,
Basic shooting competition, such as PPC and/or practical, is just that, basic. It helps develop some techniques and habits that are almost universal - balanced stance, sight usage, firing for accuracy, firing at speed, shooting weak-hand, reloading, use of cover, some different basic positions, shooting at multiple targets, shooting on the move. What few of them do is teach flexibility, problem solving or special tactics in unusal situations. But the basic shooting skills are necessary in every form of either competition or combat. Keeping those skills sharp will save your bacon. My instructor, during the days of PPC qualifiers, was a former FBI agent. He was teamed with a partner once who was one of the best shots in the agency. One afternoon they went to the range to brush up and he was impressed. His partner put 6/6 right in the x-ring at 25 yards with a 2.5" Model 19 in about 5 seconds. But it took him 18 seconds to reload! He confessed to Vic that one of the reasons he was such a good shot was that he was lousy at reloading. He was also a southpaw which complicated matters somewhat. After a few months of practice and Vic's tutelage, he was able to reload in 7 seconds (from belt loops - there were no speed loaders then). If you don't have the basic skills down, you need to work to improve them. And in the basic skills category, I include point-shooting along with weak-hand and shooting on the move. When the elephant looms large, your reactions should be instant and automatic so that your brain is solving THE problem of the moment. That problem might be as simple as remembering where the nearest cover is. Or it could be a complex 3D moving approximation of how much to lead your moving target as he tries to run to you, or away, in an uneven "S" curve. But your reflexes have brought the gun up to bear properly, disengaged any safety and your finger has eased onto the trigger without conscious thought.
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November 1, 2008, 02:06 AM | #24 |
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Dave
I do not disagree with you, learning bad habits in IPSC or IDPA can and will cost you on the street. As usual Dave I was not very clear in my first post. I am saying that competition and winning is part of training as well as the games. My most valuable trophies are a belt buckle from NRA Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor School for top shooter, a DVC belt buckle and the little Bronze cup for the most improved at POST, these were very real fields of competition every bit as serious for me as the US revolver championships.
Good Luck & Be Safe
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November 1, 2008, 02:15 AM | #25 |
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Bill
Would the instructor you speak of be Vic Cortez?
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