has any body else noticed a problem in the primers

[killseeker]

has any body else noticed an inconsistency in the Primers.
i have been seeing a change in the muzzle flash to a brite white and a swing in muzzle velocity. i don't think it has anything to do with the load. i micro-measure every shell i load, and i have gone through 3 or 4 pounds of powder, and still see the muzzle flash and velocity changes. so i don't think it is the powder. so that leaves the Primers.
any body else seen this as well...

[Scorch]

I used to have the same problem with CCI primers. They would give me really wild variations in velocity. So I switched to Winchester primers after testing Federal, Remington, and Winchesters. They are much more consistent, give less variation in velocity from shot to shot, and are about the same price.

[30Cal]

Inconsistant seating will cause large variations in the heat you get out of a primer. Do you clean your pockets out and what do you use to seat them?

Ty

[Wild Bill Bucks]

I did extensive testing of CCI, Winchester, Remington, and Federal primers, when I was working up bench loads for my .308 and .300 Win Mag.

I found when I used Winchester Brass, and Winchester primers, my loads as to velocity and chamber pressures were a lot more consistent, than when I used any combination of brass and primers. I noticed big fluctuations from Remington and CCI, not as much with federal, but the best all around combination seemed to be Winchester on Winchester, so I have stayed with that combination and have had no problems since.

I Traded out all my Remington, Federal and odd wad brass and all I use now is Winchester.

[killseeker]

do you think a guy that Micro-Measures every load he puts in a shell. is going to over look doing anything to prep his cases, for the best he can get out of them.
but even still a dirty primer base or lose fit, will not give you a brite white blasting muzzle flash, out the muzzle

and as of this week i am trying bench rest and match primers to see if i get better grouping.
getting the best out of each shot, is important to my job. most of my shooting starts at 200 to 300 yards and out.
and for many years i used CCI.
but i too, now think the have dropped the ball..

OR possably, have they been Hillaryized ? ? ?

[Jseime]

CCI isnt the best anymore, howcome everywhere i go i cant find them and end up buying something else.

I have some handloads made up now some with CCI and some with Federal i cant quite recall exactly which were which and the other day i had a hangfire in my .270 could that have been the CCI or maybe i just missed cleaning the primer pocket?

Anyway if CCI isnt the best who is? im using mostly remington cases and now federal primers should i go winchester?

[guntotin_fool]

Is this happening in multiple calibers in different rifles?

I are you sure your primers are being set to identical depth and seated cleanly?

Are you positlve that your expander ball is precisesly clean and sized correctly. How about your seating depths. Loose neck tension can lead to incomplete combustion more readily than can a varied primer. Have you switched primer brands to try another or are you just blaming them all?

If you said all my loads with lot XXX-YYY-ZZZ of remchestfed of small rifle had all gone haywire, and the only thing different are my primers, I might agree with you. but when you blanket pan all primers without tell what needs to be known, I kinda figure it is the loader not the load.

[Powderman]

It sounds more like an inconsistent or insufficient load density with a slow powder.

The best guideline that I can think of when selecting loads for reloading is to "select a powder that will fill the case to the base of the seated bullet"--quoted from the Speer manual.

Next, look at bullet pull and bullet crimp--not the same thing, I assure you.

Bullet pull is the case/neck tension that holds the bullet firm along its bearing surface. Bullet crimp keeps the bullet from jumping forward under recoil. Check your case neck tension by seating a bullet in an empty case; putting the bullet's meplat (point) against a firm surface and giving it a good hard push. If the bullet stays in place, pull and crimp are good. If it seats deeper into the case, then get a smaller expanding ball for your sizer die (rifle) or expander die (pistol).

[killseeker]

nothing you do, or not do,, with the brass case will make the brite white MUZZLE FLASH
i was thinking it was a primer problem. and that was the question, of ther post. the CASE-PREP has nothing to do with the muzzle flash........

i tried to say in the post i do everything to the brass you can do before i load it.
i even do more than most think needed.

and for crimping the bullet into the case neck. you can get a lot of bad shots from doing that. just a tinny case streach can cause a tighter crimp, and cause a higher pressure. you don't have to crimp your bullets into the cases. that is the first bullet deformty you can make for a bad shot. you can still have a tight bullet fit, in the neck if you prep your brass right. i do run my case in one more process. i do not relie on the neck ball in the case resizer. i use the Lee neck sizer after i Deprime and resize. this lets me better re-size the necks and feel if there is any difference in any of the casses.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...r/DSCF0895.jpg
look i have been reloading for around 30 years now, i have just about everything you can get, to keep your brass to the highest of condition.
i think i get more life out my brass than any body i know.
and as for making a load on how full you fill it, come on dude...
that is no way to work up a load. if you don't use a cronny, you never really going to know what your getting, and a stuffed case is nothing to go buy. and relieing on one book for everyting is not the way to learn.
you need a shelf of books to work from, every book has something good in it, and bad. you have to learn what is what, and that taks time.
and bullet seat man i use the best of competition dies,
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...r/DSCF0893.jpg
and before the guy goes off, but you can bump it and make it off. i got that covered too
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...r/DSCF0887.jpg
i put a piece of tape on it to make sure it does not move
i buy a new box (250 or 500) of brass i don't just through them up and start reloading them.
they have to go through the whole line of brass prepping.
resize, make sure all are cut to length, deburr the primer hole ( on the inside ), now, run it through the Lee neck sizer.
and for every bullet i load, the powder is micro-messured before it goes in the case to the exact grain... of the load i have worked up.

[dfaugh]

Yes, some of us anyway, like, read the post. However, when the typing/grammar is essentially unreadable (see above post), and you don't give anywhere near enough details, its really hard to try and help. Several people tried, but all you could tell them was to read the post.

(Sorry, I'm not usually a grammar Nazi, but I found this thread ridiculous, and I've got a bad attitude today!)

[killseeker]

never fails if they can't attack the things said,,, they attack the way it is said.

little people all ways pop out...

sorry it was too long for you

i try one liners next time

but for any body that knows reloading well enough they can understand what was said
not that hard to follow

still the only question was has any body had the same problem with Primers and getting inconsistency in their shooting
and seeing brite white muzzle flashes over the norm
i got what i was after with out say
one guy pops up with CCI the same one i was having the proplems with

and none of that has anything to do with the brase cassing
and to be told what i can be doing wrong with my brass short story there told it all
sorry if that was too much for you
i left out all the dots and dashes so you can have more little things to rant over

[ranger dave]

i hope the grammer cops arnt out my typeing sucks it sound like you have the reloading thing down ok i have never herd of primers doing that i have seen lots of powder be 10% higher or lower for my 300 win mag i get 8 pounds at a time and work the loads up with each lot i fire what evers gives me 2700 fps i have seen spreds of 1.2 g but the bullet hits the same place as for the flash i tryed to watch it while shooting though the scope i couldent hit a thing eather ha ha

[Dave P]

What is micro-measuring?

[killseeker]

i always shake the pound of powder up good, before i open it up.
and the Brite muzzle flash has been seen in a working pound of powder.
not every shot, from a bad batch of powder like one guy i think was trying to say,
or a bad batch of primers.
it would be a random thing, but more than the random brite flash, i could feel the differance in the recoil, and sound, but no brite flash. but the last card of primers of CCI, i have had 4 shots that were brite white muzzle flashes.
i put that card aside.
oh,, for the grammer idiot, (card of primers, is that little pack of 100 primers).
some people just say a card of primers, i picked it up, from hearing it.
back the the story
the hot and cold primers has been getting to me for a while. i though it was just a batch problem, so i over looked it for some time. but it has been getting worse. this brite white muzzle flash thing is brand new. and concerns me
when a flame goes white,, man, that is hot. what was that doing to the inside of my barrel.
i have gone to differant primers now, and they are shooting more consistant.
one guy was talking about getting the best for him from Winchester Primers,
does winchester make Match primers?
i don't mind paying a little more, to get a little more..
i am going to match primers all the way now.
buck more, for a card adds up, when you shoot as much as i do.
but if the misses are a lot less, do to a more consistancy, i will go the extra buck a card.
having a hot spot in a pound of powder, that you have shook up, is not as likely, as a hotter primer, in a card of primers.

and i have made a few loads with a compressed load of same powder and it will not give you that brite white flash.

and as for using guess work for help, it is no help. as for some one that has done it, and tells about it, THAT IS HELP big difference

for the guy that just came in and ask what is Micro-Measuring
i use my electronic scale and Micro-Measure every load to the 10th of a grain.
So, every load is exactly the same in powder.( and for the grammer idiot,, as much as the scale will allow it to be exactly the same.)
good question, glad you had the nerve to ask, nothing wrong with that.

[Scorch]

I believe killseeker because I have seen the same thing. If you don't believe it, prime a bunch of cases, and set them off one by one. You will have a visible, audible difference between shots and between the different make of primers.

I first ran into the problem years back with the plastic primer-powered Speer 38 practice ammo. When I used CCI primers, the groups size was inconsistent, but about 4" at 15 yds. When using Federal and Winchester, the group size was consistently about 2" at 15 yds. The only thing that changed was the primers. There was no powder. Just so you folks don't think it was the weapon, my Python groups 1" at 50 yds with 158 gr JHP, so the piece is accurate.

I have never heard anyone say that CCI primers were the best, and if I had I would have laughed at them. CCI primers are usually the cheapest and are almost universally available, but they are nowhere near the best.

[guntotin_fool]

Again NO DETAILS>

What caliber are you loading?

IS this happening to more than one caliber?

Is this happening with both large and small rifle and both large and small pistol primers?

Is this happening with more than one powder/load combo?

Muzzle flash really is unburned powder/gases reacting with air. Nothing else. Certain powders give almost no muzzle flash anyway, specific new military powders (and some commercial) are almost flash-less. Certain powders loaded in just such a way can give massive fireballs at the end of the barrel. (these are usually reserved for the public range when surrounded by morons, it clears them out fast)

Inconsistencies in ignition will more likely be evidenced in widely varied velocities spread over the groups. Bad group sizes will result, USUALLY. Have you taken the time to chrony these loads? What is the deviation?
Are the velocities all over the place.

You claim to do every possible thing you can do to brass to make right, except throw it away. You proudly claim to get more firings out of your brass than anyone else. IF the primer pocket is warn or stretched from too many firings, the inconsistent ignition can occur. Does this happen with new brass? Only to brass that has multiple reloading?

What is micro measuring, I measure to the tenth of a grain. That is all the load books call for. I figure 1/70,000th of a pound is close enough. If you mean you do not use a powder drop measure, that is something else entirely.

Have you called the manufacturer of the Primers? You never said it was brand X, but I have dealt with CCI and Federal on primer issues in the past.
They have been nothing short of extraordinary in their willingness to help.
Both wanted all the data I could provide for them on the situation. Both sent me prepaid mailers to return the questioned primers back, both followed up with more detailed questions. Finally one decided that I was making a mistake in the process, and upon review and changing my practices that fixed the issue. The other decided that indeed they had a batch of primers that went out with the cups drawn of imperfect material and blowing primers at 38 to 40 KPSI was indeed happening and NOT my fault.

I have reloaded for 25 years, maybe longer. I was asking for specific details not bragging about your meticulous care of brass. which you really did not define anyway. Had you said, all 30-06 W_W once fired brass gets deprimed, tumbled, checked for length/stretch with a not to exceed length of 2.494", the primer pockets get scrubbed with a forsters tool, and then are run in a lee neck sizer on a redding press, it would be easier to understand the you do indeed take care of your brass. If you had said loading 165 grain hornady spire tips on top of 56 grains of H4350 and using federal large rifle primers seating to a OAL of 3.205, an observer would have had the information that you understood the process.

I was not trying to flame nor an I trying to do that now, but I will be happy to try to answer a question when enough data is supplied to a answer it correctly.

[dfaugh]

See (above) I'm not the only one totally confused by your posts... Sit back, take a deep breath, and try to elaborate on the problem, in a reasonably coherent manner. We ALL are very willing to help. I THINK I understand, but when it comes to reloading, I'm not gonna offer an opinion, until I understand the problem(s). Errors in reloading can be dangerous!

[killseeker]

all it looks like, is that they have made more post than most...:barf:
and if you read more than one line in a post, all these stupid questions, have been answered, in the post you claim to have read.
but looks like you want to go into outer space with god knows what.


now in slow,, big words,,,,,,,,,,,,, for the slower senior members.
i am glad not all are like this.

YOU, GET, A, POUND, OF, POWDER, SHAKE, IT, UP, AS, SO, IT, WILL, HAVE, NO, UNEVEN, OF, BIG, AND, LITTLE, GRANULES.

NOW, YOU, TAKE, YOUR, SCALE, AND, WEIGH, EVERY, LOAD, TO, MAKE, SURE, THE, POWDER, IN, ALL, ARE, THE, SAME, IN, A, RUN, OF, 20, SHELLS..
WITH, A, BOX, OF, BRAND, NEW, BRASS, YOU, JUST, PREPPED, FOR, LOADING.

NOW! WHILE, YOUR, SHOOTING, THE, 20, SHELLS, YOU, JUST, LOADED, A, RANDOM, 4, OF, THEM, HAVE, A, BRITE, WHITE, MUZZLE, FLASH. NOT, OF, THE, NORMAL, COLOR, MUZZLE, FLASH, YOU, SHOULD, BE, GETTING...

AND, A, SIMPLE, QUESTION, ABOUT, THE, PRIMERS. AND, WAS, ANY, BODY, ELSE, SEEING, THIS? ? ?

WITH, THAT,,, WHY, ARE, YOU, ASKING, ABOUT, THE, BRASS, AND, POWDER, OR, WHAT, CALIBER?? AND, THAT, HAS, BEEN, STATED, IN, ALL, THE, POST,
SO JUST WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO ANY WAY???

NOW SENIOR MEMBER,,, JUST HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNSERSTAND.

[killseeker]

only less than one handfull, has trouble with it, speeks for it's self.

[The Guy]

Man, my Grandpa always said, if it looks like crap, and smells like crap, then....

Have you switched to Winchester primers yet and eliminated the problem. I haven't been around forever, but I have always kinda thought that cci was kinda el-cheapo stuff. Never even used their .22's much. Nothing personal against them, just looked el-cheapo, felt el-cheapo.... I think you get the point.

If you do figgure it all out, let us know. Till then, good luck.

[hatchet]

I just recently switched to Winchester and so far like the results.

[killseeker]

i have use the CCI-Primers for years, with not much of a problem.
but the last few years shooting got to be a chore. and the last few months,, man nothing but problems..:barf:
i tried just about every powder out there trying to find one that was better, for me and what i do, than the Winchester 760, i use for a very long time, i liked it for it's consistent loading. but i always thought it has had a dirty burn to it. but as always when i hunt for a better powder, i always come back to Win-760. now i think all that dirty burn as been the CCI-Primers. still using Winchester 760 powder. but i am using, Federal Large Magnum Rifle Primers. they seem to be working a lot better than the CCI-Primers were doing. no brite muzzle flashes. and i feel the recoil and sound to be more the same, with out much change, some of the CCI-Primer shots, rung my ears, even with the ear-plugs in.
i have not been able to use the Crony yet, to check speeds, it has been too cloudy.
but the shot grouping looks a lot better too. i would have gotten some Winchester match primers too, but the only place here i can get Pirmers, with out driving 300 mile round trip, don't stock them.
but i am going to try to get some, if i can, some where, i have to give them a chance too. but the Federal Primers feel a lot better.
but still need to Crony them, to make sure.

[dfaugh]

Annd, When 226, People, Read The Post, And Only, A Few, Reply, And, Most Of Them, Can't Figure, Out Exactly, What, You're, Asking...well, Maybe, Ther's A, Problem.

[killseeker]

what is it man you jealous or something? ? ? you add nothing constructive to the post, so STFU.
looks like all you want to do is, antagonize the people making post.
if you can't understand go some where else. just looks liek it was too much for you. go read shorter threads with smaller words. and stay out of mine.
the words Seinor Member only means you talk too much. doesn't mean your smart. every thing you question in my post. was answered in the post you said you read.
SO BUG OFF
go back to your kiddy forums and flame them..

and for some one else that was trying to antagonize, and said i need to through away more brass.
here is a pic of a box of dead brass i even destory each piece of brass as so it will never get back into the line of good brass.
2 years worth of brass in this box, only of one caliber.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...r/BadBrass.jpg

[killseeker]

it is set up for long range shooting.

and it does what it is made for, very very well.
it was not set up for punching holes in paper at 100 yards! ! !

and before you start,, what kind of scope it has on it, has nothing to do with the Muzzle Flash