A Word of Thanks to the Staff....

**Shane Tuttle** · January 25, 2009, 12:15 PM

This thread was on record that political discussion was going to be allowed even though it breaks the rules. I was glad to see that we were able (at least for a while) discuss politics as an underline to the main topic.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=333350

Unfortunately, it got closed. I have to vent my anger and frustration that we still are not able to keep on topic, especially when the staff gave us a bit of a break. There was a particular member that possibly would have brought up good points of discussion, only to have the thread locked. It could have been locked down due to the discussion has naturally ran its course and the Mod felt to play it safe. I don't know. Whatever the case may be, I can accept the staff's decision.

For the longest of time, I disagreed with L&P being shut down. Now, I understand why.

So, in short, thanks staff for allowing a short reprieve. It was fun while it lasted.

Al Norris · January 25, 2009, 01:57 PM

Ah! Another convert [snide smile]!

Let's get this out in the open, shall we?

Anybody want to take a look at the number of threads shut down since we went public with the new forum? Is there any question as to why they were shut down? Does anyone see the general shift from informative and intelligent discussion, to general ranting and fear-mongering?

If you have any comments, or even rants about all of this, including rants against the mods - speak now or forever hold your peace. This is the thread to do this. Here and only here.

I'll keep this open, even though it is fully off topic, so you the members can have your say.

Will it change anything? Nope. But you get to get it off your chest. Right here. Right now.

Normal rules for posting behavior will apply.

**Shane Tuttle** · January 25, 2009, 02:35 PM

Thanks for letting this stay open for a bit, Antipitas. I knew this was off-topic and was destined to be shut down. But I just had enough of members, including me, past or present, to allow ourselves to let this happen.

Most members and staff have done the best they could. Staff gave us an inch on that thread and it still was taken for granted to see if it could go a mile.

Everybody can call me a ninny, jerk, whine-bag, or whatever floats your boat. I'm even inviting PM's to call me anything they want including terms that would make a sailor blush. But the bottom line is I'm frustrated that we aren't able to keep from abusing privelages that were given to us for the benefit of the doubt.

Time for me to shut up. Next...

hammer4nc · January 25, 2009, 04:07 PM

Threadlock in this forum, has been applied in an arbitrary and capricious fashion. Trying to use statistics on % of closed threads as some kind of index, to support your previous decision to censor political discussion, is circular reasoning at best. A conclusion in search of supporting data. You're really grasping at strawmen here, Al.

This whole notion of "signal to noise", as a motivation for censoring L&P, has been quite selectively applied; look at any of the other TFL sub-forums, to see all manner of tripe, duplicate threads, off-topic, etc. that is tolerated, even encouraged. Suddenly, political topics wasting precious bandwidth, as the motivation for censorship, doesn't pass the smell test.

Another knob frequently polished..."we need to avoid strident expression, so that fence sitters don't think we gun owners are a bunch of knuckle-dragging neanderthals". This theme has been applied by the statist elements, moderators and members alike, to quell dissent...even that falling within the bounds of propriety/TOS. Shameful.

Compare the political discussion on TFL back in 2000, to more recent times...the big difference now, seems much less tolerance for discussion of official misconduct; much quicker to play the "bashing" card, with the express intent to inflame, and thus shutdown via threadlock, the entire discussion. Inumerable references to obese bubbas in camos, toting tricked out SKS's... sound familiar? Exhortations to storm city hall with your illegal machine guns?

And TPTB bought bought into that tactic, lock, stock and government-pension-paid-for barrel. Maybe its a sign of the times. One observation: the forum has self-selected its audience, now comprising more members with an unquestioning "law and order" ethic, regardless of how abhorrent that law might be.

This is going to be interesting to watch, once the Obama train starts rolling...similar to present discussions on Illinois repressive gun laws. We'll have an abundance of advice on how to comply with every little detail of the law, but by God, you better not mention "infringement" (its a political concept).

{Predictable Thread - Q: It takes a year to renew my FOID! A: Quit crying, baybee, we're understaffed!}

I still can't figure out this line in the sand...political discussion being repeatedly dismissed as "conspiracy theory/chicken little/doomsday crapola";

then somehow magically rising to the threshold of acceptability for discussion, once a legislative bill has been proposed, and maybe not even then, unless it has a lot of co-sponsors. Does the vitriol in locking these threads expose an ulterior motive?

Here's a concept: Every gun control bill has its roots in politics. So, its agreed we just ignore the whole deal until the gun-grabbers serve up the next AWB, then we can play catch-up? Well, maybe by being docile, we've won over a few fence sitters? Epic FAIL!:barf:

In summary, if I didn't know better, I'd think the forum staff had a hidden agenda. As someone posted, defend the second amendment, and crap on the first.**

Thanks for this opportunity for expression. I reckon I'm in the minority. Maybe this will stimulate some meaningful discussion. Now, off to the gym.

**Please, no need to rehash "this is a private forum, so the 1st amendment doesn't apply"; malarky. Just like with the RKBA, either you support the right to free expression or you don't (within bounds of propriety). Once you start to heavily censor for content, as this forum has chosen to do, you can no longer claim to support the ideals of the BOR. At least without being hypocritical.

Tennessee Gentleman · January 25, 2009, 04:51 PM

I for one like the new format. The old L&P had too much drive by kookiness and personal attacks. Sometimes, the forum resembled a smack board on a college football site. I like the intellegent discussion and provocative posts we can have on here without the kooks calling me names. Free speech is good, no reason it can't be civil.

Wildalaska · January 25, 2009, 05:00 PM

Since the new rules are in effect, and the Mods be watching, the level of discourse has risen to the point that I feel this has become the one of the best "political" Boards on the web.

Reason: discusssion, debate, analysis vis a vis invective and Daily Kos syle right wing rhetoric.

Plenty of places to find blackhelicopterneoconzogbushchimphitlertruepatriotschrsitianbashingfascistrascistwhiteybad discourse all over the net.

Very few places to find to find 6 pages of intelligent discussion about closing the gun show loophole.

Quote:

We'll have an abundance of advice on how to comply with every little detail of the law, but by God, you better not mention "infringement" (its a political concept)

Au contraire...infringement is a legal concept...unfortunately for some folks this Board wants it to go beyond "what part of shall not be infringed don't you understand"

Now excuse me for a bit, I must make the miso marinade for our fresh Alaskan cod Sunday dinner, help SWMBO with the Ebi Sunomono and get the beef ready for tomorrow nights Pho

WildandallthewhileimwatchingtheskiesAlaska TM

PS My biggest problem is that when I spy objectionable posts at 1am Alaska time (2 pacific, 3 central, 4 east), there are no mods around. Perhaps I could get phone numbers?

**Mike Irwin** · January 25, 2009, 05:10 PM

"My biggest problem is that when I spy objectionable posts at 1am Alaska time (2 pacific, 3 central, 4 east), there are no mods around. Perhaps I could get phone numbers?"

Up the dosage of whatever you're taking.

You're hallucinating again.

Wildalaska · January 25, 2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

You're hallucinating again.

Guess that means I cant call YOU huh

WildandhereithoughtyoulikedtalkingtomeAlaska TM

Al Norris · January 25, 2009, 05:21 PM

Let's revisit what you were saying 2 years ago, hammer4nc.

Quote:

When the rhetoric becomes a little heated, you're quite ready to chastise "internet commandos", because you perceive the stonger rhetoric will undercut your carefully chosen requests to your political controllers. This is your plea for unity? Namecalling?

Listen up. I'll speak just as harshly about those forum members (usually employees of the state, in my observation) who always want to squelch strident opinions, because they feel it makes them look bad (or might threaten their paycheck?). We see in another gun forum, for example, where political speech was outright banned (yeah, except for weekly political photoshop posters created by the forum owner ); all this under the guise of "raising the signal to noise ratio", "stopping bashing", or some other transparent pretext. I think trying to silence or control the political rhetoric because it doesn't fit YOUR political template, to be most repulsive, and counterproductive. How's that?

The dream of every gun controller, that the gun community would stop at a strongly worded letter, as to the total substance of their "fight". Civil disobedience? Don't mention it! Active resistance? Ban all discussion! Yeah, that's the ticket!

Your screed hasn't changed much, I see. But let's look closely at the last line of that same 2 year old post:

Quote:

I guess it depends on where you perceive where we are in the struggle.

On the RKBA front, things have changed. Despite the outcome of the elections, we are more secure in our RKBA than at any time in the last 50 years. Yet your screed is the same.

raimius · January 25, 2009, 07:58 PM

I greatly appreciate a forum with a high percentage of knowledgeable legal posts. That is all too rare in the gun-rights discussions I usually see.

B. Lahey · January 25, 2009, 08:13 PM

Call me a pessimist, but I bet this subforum will degenerate into a screeching frenzy and be reclosed within a year. You only need to see the current trend of dozens of immediately closed threads popping up whenever the latest mass e-mail from the Interwebz Conspiracy Center (or whoever sends those damn things) goes out. Eventually the mods will get sick of it, the members who post the endless "I got an e-mail that sez Hussein-Obama 500% ammo tax next week, oh no!" threads will get angry and loudmouthed, and everyone will see the wisdom of cutting the whole mess loose (again).

It should have stayed closed so us gun dweebs can talk about guns without railing at each other about our varied and weird political beliefs.

I love BSing about law as much as anyone, but I would say at least 90% of people are incapable of separating law and politics. When they talk about one, they wander into the other. There's no stopping it.

Tennessee Gentleman · January 25, 2009, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

Up the dosage of whatever you're taking.

You're hallucinating again.

Wouldn't that make him worse?

**Mike Irwin** · January 25, 2009, 10:41 PM

"Call me a pessimist, but I bet this subforum will degenerate into a screeching frenzy and be reclosed within a year."

Trust us, it won't.

All of the closed threads about conspiracy theories and other off-topic stuff?

That's your positive indication that staff is taking an active role in ensuring that this forum doesn't have to go away.

The sticky messages that explain the posting criteria for Law and Civil Rights make it very clear that there is a new direction, both for posting AND for enforcement, and a new emphasis, and we're not going to let any one person, or small group of people, sidetrack it.

In the past problem children were given a LOT more leeway - more chances to reform, and ultimately, more chances to cause chaos.

Those days are over.

Yes, mods will eventually get tired of it. That's when the old mods in need a rest and respite hand over the reigns to a new set of mods who have proven that they have the same goals in mind.

hogdogs · January 26, 2009, 12:26 AM

OH I KNOW ALL THE BUTTON PUSHER WORDS TOO...
But I assure any members that I did not buy my L&CR membership! I am not a suck up either. A bit diplomatic at times but not a suck up! I have had some threads locked and most were not meant to inflame nor were they based on any college educational facts. Just a good ol' redneck view of the world as I see it. But abiding by the rules is easy on TFL as they are spelled out unlike the grievous number of laws in the world that are shaded in mumbo jumbo the average folks can't be 100% sure of...
If someone don't like the rules here... Just go start your own forum... they are free!!!
http://www.proboards.com/
Ya'll have a ball!
Brent

Evan Thomas · January 26, 2009, 05:19 PM

Antipitas wrote:

Quote:

Anybody want to take a look at the number of threads shut down since we went public with the new forum? Is there any question as to why they were shut down? Does anyone see the general shift from informative and intelligent discussion, to general ranting and fear-mongering?

Yeah... I was just noticing how many little padlocks there are in the sidebar, then saw this thread. It beats me why it's so hard for some folks not to rant, or what's so difficult about reading the forum rules, fergoshsake, and either abiding by them or going somewhere else.

But I've also noticed that once a thread gets going (the one on the gunshow loophole comes to mind here), more and more people do seem to jump in with good posts -- the signal-to-noise ratio stays pretty high, and so does the level of civility.

A lot of members here are really well-informed about legal and constitutional issues -- I for one have learned a lot from reading some of the more serious, "high-toned" threads in this forum, and it's a whole lot easier to do that when I'm not having to filter out invective, knee-jerk political opinions, etc., etc....

Thanks, mods... yer doin' good.

Hirlau · January 26, 2009, 10:41 PM

Antipitas, Sir,
You said we can "speak now or forever hold your peace" well here goes---

Yesterday I posted a "Dancing Chicken" on the Rile Thread, "Hey Cops". It was to instill a little humor

My "Dancing Chicken" disappeared faster than "Jimmy Hoffa on his way to the Federal Courthouse

I think "Art" had something to do with it and my "Chicken" is probably in the back of his pickup, as we speak

Just incase someone spots him, here is his photo. Any help you guys can give , will be much appreciated

Al Norris · January 26, 2009, 10:59 PM

Yes, but the context was about this forum in particular. Not what another mod does in another forum on TFL.

Ah'll leaf yer chicken jist sews if anyone sees it, theys can PM yoose where to pick it up.

Redneckrepairs · January 26, 2009, 11:02 PM

Speaking only for myself :

I have my opinion on things politics , as i am sure you do . I am sure some of my opinions agree with some of your opinions because we are members here . However no matter how you feel i dont come here to discuss how disappointed i am about my new president or what he has done /will do . I come here to visit about guns and gun related life . I dont care what party you belong to , what color or plumbing you are . I dont care if you subscribe to he/she , she/she , he/he or even it/critter sexually , just dont tell me because this isnt "that " kinda board . Folks if we talk about guns i can be polite ( even to glock lovers on occasion lol ). Lets leave the rest of it aside here . Lets not speculate , demean , demand , or do other things that the media does every day . Mr Obama cannot make a law , he can only sign one , Democrats are not inherently evil , some " blue dogs " vote more consistently conservative than the last presidential nominee of the republicans . For the record i am a party whore who has been both dem , and republican in the last 3 elections , you may ask why and fairly so . I do this to vote for the candidate locally that i care about . I have NO party loyalty , i have issue loyalty . Whomever agrees with me on the issues will get my support .

Enough politics and too long a post so i just want to point out that the hk p7 eclipses both the 1911 and any glock made as a carry/service pistol , and someday hk may make one that equals my Kahr pm for my use .

January 25, 2009, 12:15 PM	#1
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	A Word of Thanks to the Staff.... This thread was on record that political discussion was going to be allowed even though it breaks the rules. I was glad to see that we were able (at least for a while) discuss politics as an underline to the main topic. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=333350 Unfortunately, it got closed. I have to vent my anger and frustration that we still are not able to keep on topic, especially when the staff gave us a bit of a break. There was a particular member that possibly would have brought up good points of discussion, only to have the thread locked. It could have been locked down due to the discussion has naturally ran its course and the Mod felt to play it safe. I don't know. Whatever the case may be, I can accept the staff's decision. For the longest of time, I disagreed with L&P being shut down. Now, I understand why. So, in short, thanks staff for allowing a short reprieve. It was fun while it lasted. __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

January 25, 2009, 02:35 PM	#3
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	Thanks for letting this stay open for a bit, Antipitas. I knew this was off-topic and was destined to be shut down. But I just had enough of members, including me, past or present, to allow ourselves to let this happen. Most members and staff have done the best they could. Staff gave us an inch on that thread and it still was taken for granted to see if it could go a mile. Everybody can call me a ninny, jerk, whine-bag, or whatever floats your boat. I'm even inviting PM's to call me anything they want including terms that would make a sailor blush. But the bottom line is I'm frustrated that we aren't able to keep from abusing privelages that were given to us for the benefit of the doubt. Time for me to shut up. Next... __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

January 25, 2009, 04:07 PM	#4
hammer4nc Junior member Join Date: December 3, 2000 Posts: 575	A missive on censorship. Threadlock in this forum, has been applied in an arbitrary and capricious fashion. Trying to use statistics on % of closed threads as some kind of index, to support your previous decision to censor political discussion, is circular reasoning at best. A conclusion in search of supporting data. You're really grasping at strawmen here, Al. This whole notion of "signal to noise", as a motivation for censoring L&P, has been quite selectively applied; look at any of the other TFL sub-forums, to see all manner of tripe, duplicate threads, off-topic, etc. that is tolerated, even encouraged. Suddenly, political topics wasting precious bandwidth, as the motivation for censorship, doesn't pass the smell test. Another knob frequently polished..."we need to avoid strident expression, so that fence sitters don't think we gun owners are a bunch of knuckle-dragging neanderthals". This theme has been applied by the statist elements, moderators and members alike, to quell dissent...even that falling within the bounds of propriety/TOS. Shameful. Compare the political discussion on TFL back in 2000, to more recent times...the big difference now, seems much less tolerance for discussion of official misconduct; much quicker to play the "bashing" card, with the express intent to inflame, and thus shutdown via threadlock, the entire discussion. Inumerable references to obese bubbas in camos, toting tricked out SKS's... sound familiar? Exhortations to storm city hall with your illegal machine guns? And TPTB bought bought into that tactic, lock, stock and government-pension-paid-for barrel. Maybe its a sign of the times. One observation: the forum has self-selected its audience, now comprising more members with an unquestioning "law and order" ethic, regardless of how abhorrent that law might be. This is going to be interesting to watch, once the Obama train starts rolling...similar to present discussions on Illinois repressive gun laws. We'll have an abundance of advice on how to comply with every little detail of the law, but by God, you better not mention "infringement" (its a political concept). {Predictable Thread - Q: It takes a year to renew my FOID! A: Quit crying, baybee, we're understaffed!} I still can't figure out this line in the sand...political discussion being repeatedly dismissed as "conspiracy theory/chicken little/doomsday crapola"; then somehow magically rising to the threshold of acceptability for discussion, once a legislative bill has been proposed, and maybe not even then, unless it has a lot of co-sponsors. Does the vitriol in locking these threads expose an ulterior motive? Here's a concept: Every gun control bill has its roots in politics. So, its agreed we just ignore the whole deal until the gun-grabbers serve up the next AWB, then we can play catch-up? Well, maybe by being docile, we've won over a few fence sitters? Epic FAIL!:barf: In summary, if I didn't know better, I'd think the forum staff had a hidden agenda. As someone posted, defend the second amendment, and crap on the first. Thanks for this opportunity for expression. I reckon I'm in the minority. Maybe this will stimulate some meaningful discussion. Now, off to the gym. Please, no need to rehash "this is a private forum, so the 1st amendment doesn't apply"; malarky. Just like with the RKBA, either you support the right to free expression or you don't (within bounds of propriety). Once you start to heavily censor for content, as this forum has chosen to do, you can no longer claim to support the ideals of the BOR. At least without being hypocritical. Last edited by hammer4nc; January 25, 2009 at 04:22 PM.

January 25, 2009, 04:51 PM	#5
Tennessee Gentleman Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,775	I for one like the new format. The old L&P had too much drive by kookiness and personal attacks. Sometimes, the forum resembled a smack board on a college football site. I like the intellegent discussion and provocative posts we can have on here without the kooks calling me names. Free speech is good, no reason it can't be civil. __________________ "God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier.

January 25, 2009, 08:13 PM	#11
B. Lahey Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,857	Call me a pessimist, but I bet this subforum will degenerate into a screeching frenzy and be reclosed within a year. You only need to see the current trend of dozens of immediately closed threads popping up whenever the latest mass e-mail from the Interwebz Conspiracy Center (or whoever sends those damn things) goes out. Eventually the mods will get sick of it, the members who post the endless "I got an e-mail that sez Hussein-Obama 500% ammo tax next week, oh no!" threads will get angry and loudmouthed, and everyone will see the wisdom of cutting the whole mess loose (again). It should have stayed closed so us gun dweebs can talk about guns without railing at each other about our varied and weird political beliefs. I love BSing about law as much as anyone, but I would say at least 90% of people are incapable of separating law and politics. When they talk about one, they wander into the other. There's no stopping it. Last edited by B. Lahey; January 25, 2009 at 08:23 PM.

January 25, 2009, 01:57 PM	#2
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Ah! Another convert [snide smile]! Let's get this out in the open, shall we? Anybody want to take a look at the number of threads shut down since we went public with the new forum? Is there any question as to why they were shut down? Does anyone see the general shift from informative and intelligent discussion, to general ranting and fear-mongering? If you have any comments, or even rants about all of this, including rants against the mods - speak now or forever hold your peace. This is the thread to do this. Here and only here. I'll keep this open, even though it is fully off topic, so you the members can have your say. Will it change anything? Nope. But you get to get it off your chest. Right here. Right now. Normal rules for posting behavior will apply.

January 25, 2009, 05:10 PM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	"My biggest problem is that when I spy objectionable posts at 1am Alaska time (2 pacific, 3 central, 4 east), there are no mods around. Perhaps I could get phone numbers?" Up the dosage of whatever you're taking. You're hallucinating again.

January 25, 2009, 07:58 PM	#10
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	I greatly appreciate a forum with a high percentage of knowledgeable legal posts. That is all too rare in the gun-rights discussions I usually see.

January 25, 2009, 10:41 PM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	"Call me a pessimist, but I bet this subforum will degenerate into a screeching frenzy and be reclosed within a year." Trust us, it won't. All of the closed threads about conspiracy theories and other off-topic stuff? That's your positive indication that staff is taking an active role in ensuring that this forum doesn't have to go away. The sticky messages that explain the posting criteria for Law and Civil Rights make it very clear that there is a new direction, both for posting AND for enforcement, and a new emphasis, and we're not going to let any one person, or small group of people, sidetrack it. In the past problem children were given a LOT more leeway - more chances to reform, and ultimately, more chances to cause chaos. Those days are over. Yes, mods will eventually get tired of it. That's when the old mods in need a rest and respite hand over the reigns to a new set of mods who have proven that they have the same goals in mind.

January 26, 2009, 12:26 AM	#14
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	OH I KNOW ALL THE BUTTON PUSHER WORDS TOO... But I assure any members that I did not buy my L&CR membership! I am not a suck up either. A bit diplomatic at times but not a suck up! I have had some threads locked and most were not meant to inflame nor were they based on any college educational facts. Just a good ol' redneck view of the world as I see it. But abiding by the rules is easy on TFL as they are spelled out unlike the grievous number of laws in the world that are shaded in mumbo jumbo the average folks can't be 100% sure of... If someone don't like the rules here... Just go start your own forum... they are free!!! http://www.proboards.com/ Ya'll have a ball! Brent

January 26, 2009, 10:41 PM	#16
Hirlau Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 296	Hey Boss, where's My Chicken ? Antipitas, Sir, You said we can "speak now or forever hold your peace" well here goes--- Yesterday I posted a "Dancing Chicken" on the Rile Thread, "Hey Cops". It was to instill a little humor My "Dancing Chicken" disappeared faster than "Jimmy Hoffa on his way to the Federal Courthouse I think "Art" had something to do with it and my "Chicken" is probably in the back of his pickup, as we speak Just incase someone spots him, here is his photo. Any help you guys can give , will be much appreciated

January 26, 2009, 10:59 PM	#17
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Yes, but the context was about this forum in particular. Not what another mod does in another forum on TFL. Ah'll leaf yer chicken jist sews if anyone sees it, theys can PM yoose where to pick it up.

January 26, 2009, 11:02 PM	#18
Redneckrepairs Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2006 Posts: 666	Speaking only for myself : I have my opinion on things politics , as i am sure you do . I am sure some of my opinions agree with some of your opinions because we are members here . However no matter how you feel i dont come here to discuss how disappointed i am about my new president or what he has done /will do . I come here to visit about guns and gun related life . I dont care what party you belong to , what color or plumbing you are . I dont care if you subscribe to he/she , she/she , he/he or even it/critter sexually , just dont tell me because this isnt "that " kinda board . Folks if we talk about guns i can be polite ( even to glock lovers on occasion lol ). Lets leave the rest of it aside here . Lets not speculate , demean , demand , or do other things that the media does every day . Mr Obama cannot make a law , he can only sign one , Democrats are not inherently evil , some " blue dogs " vote more consistently conservative than the last presidential nominee of the republicans . For the record i am a party whore who has been both dem , and republican in the last 3 elections , you may ask why and fairly so . I do this to vote for the candidate locally that i care about . I have NO party loyalty , i have issue loyalty . Whomever agrees with me on the issues will get my support . Enough politics and too long a post so i just want to point out that the hk p7 eclipses both the 1911 and any glock made as a carry/service pistol , and someday hk may make one that equals my Kahr pm for my use .

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