Problems with S&B .223 Brass?

Johnny Guest · June 18, 2001, 02:08 PM

ALL--

Interesting thread in Art of the Rifle forum, about SAR .223 rifle blowing up with Seiller & Bellot (sp?) ammo.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=70163

Contributors referenced similar problem with other types of rifle using this ammo.

I have a couple of boxes of S&B .223 ammo in 55 gr. on hand for my Colt AR-15, and several hundred empty cases for reloading.

Any information on this? Is it peculiar to the ss109 load? Could it be a brass problem?

I'm gonna worry about this until I get some more information.

Thanks,
Johnny

444 · June 18, 2001, 11:12 PM

This is only adding to the stories from the previous thread, but I recently got on a kick of buying and shooting WWII era milsurp rifles. I am a handloader, but I didn't have any brass in these calibers, so I bought some S&B, which was the only ammo avialable to me locally. I was firing my .303 Enfield from a sitting position when I had a round recoil more that the previous rounds. Extraction was more difficult. The primer fell in my lap. I have never had another incident and still continue to shoot the S&B brass and factory ammo. I feel that it is obvious that this one round was over pressure. Another thing that happened with the same rifle. I have fired perhaps 200 rounds of both handloads and factory ammo. It consistently shoots about 5" high at 100 yards with the ladder sight set on 200 yards. Yesterday, I decided to fire a box of S&B factory ammo just to see how it grouped after I had gotten used to the rifle and was comforable with it. This ammo grouped well, but about 6" low. I have no idea why this ammo groups approx. a foot lower than every other round ever fired by me from this rifle. ????????

Johnny Guest · June 19, 2001, 10:07 AM

Interesting, that.

I have a couple of boxes of S&B .303 Brit I got to try out in my No. 4 MK 1 rifle, but haven't gotten around to testing yet. I'll make sure to chronograph some of this ammo, to see if that shows us anything. With same bullet weight, same sight setting, etc., a noticibly lower strike on target often indicates a higher velocity. I believe the theory is that higher velocity = less barrel time = less barrel rise to "normal" path of bullet flight.

I worked up a load with Sierra 180 Spitzer soft point to about same velocity as a clean lot of MK VII ball 174 gr. military--Right at 2400 fps--and it strikes to practically same point of aim. The Winchester white box ammo from the mid-80s tends to shoot slightly slower, yielding a slightly higher bullet strike.

I'll put this testing on my "things to do" list and post the results.

What model (Number and Mark) enfield are you shooting?

Best,
Johnny

444 · June 19, 2001, 01:13 PM

I am shooting a Mk.4, No. 1 Savage. I have fired something like 4 boxes of S&B 180 grains, a box each of Federal and PMC. And perhaps 60 reloads using IMR 4895 (38-42 grains)/Hornady 174 gr. FMJBT. Everything was close enough to the same impact height that I couldn't tell the difference until this last box of S&B. I would tend to think that at 100 yards, a lower impact would signal less velocity and more bullet drop. I understand what you are saying, but I see that analogy applying more to closer ranges before bullet drop becomes a factor. I did chrono one box of S&B and they were all close to 2400 fps, slightly less, like 2375. I actually just bought the ammo mainly for the brass so I am not too concerned about it.

June 18, 2001, 02:08 PM	#1
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Problems with S&B .223 Brass? ALL-- Interesting thread in Art of the Rifle forum, about SAR .223 rifle blowing up with Seiller & Bellot (sp?) ammo. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=70163 Contributors referenced similar problem with other types of rifle using this ammo. I have a couple of boxes of S&B .223 ammo in 55 gr. on hand for my Colt AR-15, and several hundred empty cases for reloading. Any information on this? Is it peculiar to the ss109 load? Could it be a brass problem? I'm gonna worry about this until I get some more information. Thanks, Johnny

June 18, 2001, 11:12 PM	#2
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	This is only adding to the stories from the previous thread, but I recently got on a kick of buying and shooting WWII era milsurp rifles. I am a handloader, but I didn't have any brass in these calibers, so I bought some S&B, which was the only ammo avialable to me locally. I was firing my .303 Enfield from a sitting position when I had a round recoil more that the previous rounds. Extraction was more difficult. The primer fell in my lap. I have never had another incident and still continue to shoot the S&B brass and factory ammo. I feel that it is obvious that this one round was over pressure. Another thing that happened with the same rifle. I have fired perhaps 200 rounds of both handloads and factory ammo. It consistently shoots about 5" high at 100 yards with the ladder sight set on 200 yards. Yesterday, I decided to fire a box of S&B factory ammo just to see how it grouped after I had gotten used to the rifle and was comforable with it. This ammo grouped well, but about 6" low. I have no idea why this ammo groups approx. a foot lower than every other round ever fired by me from this rifle. ???????? __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

June 19, 2001, 10:07 AM	#3
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Hummmmm-- Interesting, that. I have a couple of boxes of S&B .303 Brit I got to try out in my No. 4 MK 1 rifle, but haven't gotten around to testing yet. I'll make sure to chronograph some of this ammo, to see if that shows us anything. With same bullet weight, same sight setting, etc., a noticibly lower strike on target often indicates a higher velocity. I believe the theory is that higher velocity = less barrel time = less barrel rise to "normal" path of bullet flight. I worked up a load with Sierra 180 Spitzer soft point to about same velocity as a clean lot of MK VII ball 174 gr. military--Right at 2400 fps--and it strikes to practically same point of aim. The Winchester white box ammo from the mid-80s tends to shoot slightly slower, yielding a slightly higher bullet strike. I'll put this testing on my "things to do" list and post the results. What model (Number and Mark) enfield are you shooting? Best, Johnny

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June 19, 2001, 01:13 PM	#4
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	I am shooting a Mk.4, No. 1 Savage. I have fired something like 4 boxes of S&B 180 grains, a box each of Federal and PMC. And perhaps 60 reloads using IMR 4895 (38-42 grains)/Hornady 174 gr. FMJBT. Everything was close enough to the same impact height that I couldn't tell the difference until this last box of S&B. I would tend to think that at 100 yards, a lower impact would signal less velocity and more bullet drop. I understand what you are saying, but I see that analogy applying more to closer ranges before bullet drop becomes a factor. I did chrono one box of S&B and they were all close to 2400 fps, slightly less, like 2375. I actually just bought the ammo mainly for the brass so I am not too concerned about it.