The Correct Rifle Load?

[GuitarXM]

This is my first time reloading...
I have all the equipment and watched a bunch of reloading videos and have multiple reloading manuals that I got online.

This is what I am reloading or I should say loading.. lol:
Remington 308 Winchester case
168 Gr Sierra MatchKing
IMR 4064 Powder
CCI #200 large rifle primer

This is what the manuals say....

Sierra Manual: IMR-4064 37.8 39.7 41.5 43.4
Primer: Federal 210m Case: Federal

Hogdon Manual: IMR 4064 Start: 41.5 Max: 45.9C
Primer: Federal 210m Case: Winchester

I know that when you start to load, you have to start 10% under max.
The problem is that I am using different primers and a different case.
I am not sure, but I think Federal has thinner cases and maybe that is why their max load is lighter?

I couldn't find any information regarding CCI and Remington in any manual.
What do you guys think should be the starting load here?
I have those calibrated spoons and an RCBS 502 scale to weigh the powder.

And why do people increase their load? I thought increasing the load will cause inaccuracy compared to a lighter starting load? It's not like your adding 1000 ft/sec.

[PCJim]

Good toss-up. Although Hodgdon makes IMR powders, and Sierra makes your intended bullet, I would go with Sierra's load data as it is the lighter of the two. Just by chance, does either load data specify a particular rifling twist that may better match your intended rifle?

You are correct in that max loads do not necessarily provide the best accuracy. You should create a minimum of 5 rounds of each load, working up in .5 gr increments from Sierra's starting load, or rounded to 38.0gr for simplicity. When you find a good grouping, experiment around that recipe in +/- .1gr increments to zero in on the ideal recipe.

[Shoney]

You need to consider more information which should be contained in the manual,
What Rifle?
What Length Barrel?
What bullet??

The Winchester cases are thinner, and the case has more volume, therefore it will produce a little less pressure with an equiivalent load in the Fedral case.

The important thing to consider is , "Each weapon is different." I have worked up loads for two rifles that were identical with serial number only a few digiits different, They each preferred different bullets and powders to get the smallest groups.

The information given in the manuals is only for reference, your careful testing of loads by working up while watching for pressure signs will tell you the best load.

[kraigwy]

This is a pet pieve of mine. Reloading manuals are Guides, not LAW. No two rifles are gonna shoot the same load, with the same velocity, accuracy, pressure. Even if everything else is the same. I have two Model 70 Winchersters, both with factory Winchester 30-06 barrels. I can load on any given 30-06 shell, the same exact way, same bullet, same powder/powder charge/same primer and both using new Winchester cases. And I'll get 200 fps differance in Velocity.

You cannot expect to makers of reloading manuels using differant pressure or test guns, differant primers, differant brass to come up with the same results.

If you want plinking ammo to shoot beer cans, fine, grab a load and let them rip. If you want quality ammo you have to tailor your rounds for your rifle. It you have 2 or more rifles shooting the same round, and care about the quality of your reloads, you have to tailor them for your gun.

This is the exact reason I dont like factory ammo. You can't develope a factory load that gonna work in every rifle out there. Yeah they will fire. Your gun wont blow up. You can shoot minute of moose. But you can do better.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about, from HANDLOADING AMMUNITION, J.R. Mattern. Mattern list a few things that can effect the results of your hand loads (or factory ammo).

Depth and strength of crimp
Tolerance in gun chambers
Barrel Bore diameter
Depth of grooves
Hardness of Buttlet
Weather
Primer variation
Main spring of the gun and weight of hammer
Shape of firing pin point
Net capacity fo cartridge case
Depth of which the bullet is seated
Weight of bullet
Lot of Powder, primer, brass and bullet

The list gos on and on, but you get the point.

Military match ammo (30 cal) using the same type of powder veries from 49.8 to 53.2 (Hi Vel 1146) and bullets from 170-174, depending on year, this to get the same results.

Buy a box of factory ammo, pull the bullet & weight them, weigh the brass and powder charge. Measure the lenth, loaded. Measure the force required to pull the bullet. You're gonna be suprised.

You can just pick a mid range loading from any manual and go for it or you can tailor your round to you and your gun.

[Shoney]

Just to add to kraigwy's comments

Combinations of factors can cause great variances in velocity and pressure. Here are a few factors:

Primer: strength, brisance - is a measure of the rapidity with which an explosive develops its maximum pressure
Barrel: length; tightness of bore; height of the lands; distance of bullet to lands; temperature of barrel;
Bullet: bearing surface of bullet, alloy of bullet; shape of bullet; distance off rifling;
Brass: new/used elasticity; manufacturer, volume; crimp;
Powder: new, aged, old, batch powder was from;
Weather: ambient air temp., barometric pressure, humidity
Elevation: above sea level
Other: I am sure I have not listed all

Now, mix and match them, Care to guess the number of possible combinations?

Use several loading references as a GUIDELINE, and use none as gospel.

[GuitarXM]

Sierra uses 1:10" twist
Hogdon uses 1:12"

My Remington is 1:12

yea, I see where your going with this....
I know I am a newbie, but honestly isn't it pointless to do all these tests when human error(example: breathing) has more of an effect on groupings than anything else? lol

I mean, I would rather play it safe and stick at the starting load and not worry about pressure, so I can get more loads out of the cases.....
On top of that I was thinking, even once you find your correct load. It wont work when you reload next time because you are using a different LOT.

Any tips for pressure signs?

[Antihero47]

Sierra uses 1:10" twist
Hogdon uses 1:12"

My Remington is 1:12

yea, I see where your going with this....
I know I am a newbie, but honestly isn't it pointless to do all these tests when human error(example: breathing) has more of an effect on groupings than anything else? lol

No, using a front and rear rests (sand bags) you can set the rifle to shoot at the target. Learning to control your body during the trigger pull is essential, so that you do not pull the rifle right or left and off target.

Once you do this, you greatly reduce the human element. Hell, get a rifle vise if you really do not want to mess with it.

I mean, I would rather play it safe and stick at the starting load and not worry about pressure, so I can get more loads out of the cases.....
On top of that I was thinking, even once you find your correct load. It wont work when you reload next time because you are using a different LOT.

Any tips for pressure signs?

Yes and No... Sometimes things can change from lot to lot, but for the most part everything stays close enough to not even notice a difference. I don't see you jumping into competition just yet, and these minor variances really only matter to serious bench rest guys.

If you want to just bang out quantity instead of quality then that is fine with us. Just do not look for great groups and anything to write home about over here. I'd probably expect about 2" groups from what your wanting to do.

I purchased 1K 168g FMJBT's and can load everything exactly how I would with premium 168g SMK's and cant get them to shoot for crap... (2.5" groups) and thats at 100 yards... I could only imagine 500 or 600 yards.

[GuitarXM]

How do Remington cases compare with Winchester and Federal...
The sierra manual uses Federal Cases and has a lower max load than the Hodgon which uses Winchester cases and has a higher max load...

I have to decide what my starting load should be...and its different with both of these manuals

[Bart B.]

This thread is most interesting. But I gotta comment about the popular belief that a given set of components won't shoot well across different rifles or barrels. In my opinion, this is one of many myths in the shooting sports.

For example, military match ammo (either M72 .30-06 or M118/852 7.62NATO) would all shoot under 1/2 inch at 100 yards in their respective service rifles properly put together with decent parts. It didn't matter whether they had 1:10, 1:11 or 1:12 twists or small variations in bore or chamber dimensions. If folks don't believe this, then maybe they can explain why rifles shooting the NM lots of M118/M852 at the Nationals would shoot under 6 inches at 600 yards in hundreds of service rifles; remembering that to do this well at 600, they have to shoot under 1/2 inch at 100 yards. Not to mention that this ammo would shoot a bit better in decent bolt action rifles, too. The 30 caliber M72 match ammo was almost as good.

Commercial match ammo from Remington and Federal the military teams got to shoot in ther various rifles shot better than the military match stuff.

Best thing I know of that demonstrates a given handload will shoot great across various makes of rifles, barrels and shooters was when Sierra Bullets' 155-gr. Palma bullet was first used in competition. Several hundred thousand rounds of new Winchester cases primed with GM210 primers holding 45.3 grains of IMR4895 proved exceptional. Several dozen rifles from around the world with different actions and barrels were used. Bore and groove diameters had a spread of about .001-inch. 12, 13 and 14 inch twists were used. Barrel lengths went from 28 to 32 inches. Their owners reported their accuracy with that ammo was no worse than about 5 inches at 600 yards; 10 inches at 1000 yards. That ammo had to shoot 1/3rd inch or better at 100 yards to do that well.

It's important to remember that groups don't get uniformly larger as range increases. A 1 MOA group at 100 yards won't be a 1 MOA group at 600 or 1000 yards. The reason is due to small differences in muzzle velocity and physical imperfections each bullet has.

And it's easy to see 80 fps or more spread in average muzzle velocity from the same rifle-ammo combination fired by two people at the same bench off the same rests. Furthermore, one of these people will have a lower velocity spread because he's holding the rifle more uniformly than the other. Changing the resistance to the rifle's recoil will change it's muzzle velocity for a given load.

Also, when the .308 Win. was "the" round to use in high power competition, the favorite load used by those who won the matches and set the records was vitually the same for each of the bullet weights used.

[kraigwy]

But I gotta comment about the popular belief that a given set of components won't shoot well across different rifles or barrels. In my opinion, this is one of many myths in the shooting sports.

Its not a myth. Let me give you a quick example; You mentioned the M118 & M852. As we know the M118 carries the 173 Mil Match bullet. The M852 carries the 168 SMK bullet. The 173s work great in the Military Match Barrels for the M14, the 168s don't. Most military teams, (when they were using the M14s) had commerical match barrels (normaly barrnett barrels). These barrels were six grove. The Mil USGI Match barrels are 4 grove. The 4 grove shoots the 173s best, the 6 grove shoots the 168s best.

When they were swithching to m852s I was running the AK NG Marksmanship teams, depending on availability we got both M118 & M852. Some years one or the other wasnt available. To make do, I had to issure my Rifle Team Members two rifles, one with the mil usgi barrel (4 grove) and one with the barrnett barrels (6 grove) so we could be ready for what ever ammo we were issued.

Now there are two types of shooters, individuals and teams. If you go to a high power match you are gonna find both. The individual are going to reload, tailor the ammo to their gun. The service teams arn't gonna do that (except for the AMU). If you are running a service team, you're gonna have to supple not just one team, but you have back up teams, and unit teams. An example, in Alaska (which is a small state NG wise). I had 36 M14s match rifles I had to supply ammo for. It was not practical to load for each gun. Also army regulations (fed) forbid reloading ammo. The AMU is the exception. Also some NG units were an exception. States have two sourses of funds, Fed and State. My State (Alaska) had no restrictions for using reloaded ammo as long as we used state funds. If I had a team member that wished to reload for his M14, I, using state funds bought the components and alowed him to do so. Turns out that these individuals were my top shooters.

Anyone who thinks the USAMU uses run of the mill match army is kidding themselves. Take a trip to the Benning School for Boys, and tour the AMU reloading shop. You'd be supprised what goes on there.

Tailoring Ammo to the rifle is not a myth. Far from it. Ask any decent bench rest shooter how many factory bullets he uses in compitition.

Or a simple test, develope a load for your rifle. Run them through a crony, get a zero, measure the group. Now without changing anything else, switch primers and compair the results.

[jamaica]

I am not sure, but I think Federal has thinner cases and maybe that is why their max load is lighter?

Their load is lighter because that is where they happened to see overpressure with their components and test barrel. It just happened to work out that way. No telling where your loads will hit the overpressure mark in your rifle until you work up to it.

I couldn't find any information regarding CCI and Remington in any manual.
What do you guys think should be the starting load here?
I have those calibrated spoons and an RCBS 502 scale to weigh the powder.

I don't think a different primer or brass will become any safety issue as long as you start at or near the low end of the published data. If you happen to be near Max and change the primer or brass, you could have a problem.

Starting load? Just choose the book with the lowest load and start there at the low end for beginnings. The other book is a second opinion and it is nice to have that just to check. Most of us have several reloading manuals and also download data from the powder manufacturers. You just have to pick one and go for it. When starting to load for a new cartridge, I like to read several sources before choosing a powder and load.

And why do people increase their load? I thought increasing the load will cause inaccuracy compared to a lighter starting load? It's not like your adding 1000 ft/sec.

We are searching for that sweet spot where our rifles like the load and will shoot a very good group. Yes, different powder loads will make a difference in most, if not all rifles. The lowest load is not always the most accurate. It will take some experimenting to find what load is the best in your rifle.

Sometimes we go for near max loads and higher velocity for flatter shooting bullets and increased terminal energy. This is what is nice about reloading, you can taylor your loads to your needs.

No you won't add 1000 FPS, but many cartridges may vary from 300 to 500 FPS within the tables. An elk hunter will appreciate the faster bullet when it comes in contact with his trophy.

[Sam06]

I did not read all the posts before me but I read your initial post. Here is my advice:

1. You are thinking too much about messing up.
2. Go with the loads from a bullet manufacturer. They test their bullet not hype their powder.
3. Brass is all the sane once it is fired in your gun(for the most part). The brass will do what it is supposed to do, once you get into reloading more you will be able to tell the difference.
4. When in doubt use the primer that is suggested in the reloading book you are referencing(what you are using)
5. If you are using brass that you shot in your gun and you are looking for accuracy..............Neck size. It can be done with a FL die. Turn the sizing die into the press so that a nickle will just fit between the die and the ram with the shell holder on it. It will do a min FL size on your brass.

For a 308 bolt or Gas gun try these powders:
4895,4064,3031,Varget

I think you will find that the 168gr SMK will shoot fine with any of them but my favorite is 4895 or 4064, these are the old school powders that made the 308+168SMK what it is today.

For primers Try CCI LR BR or Remington LR BR primers, I think they work best.

For a starting load look at the Sierra Load Man and go with the accuracy load. That is where to start.

Seat the bullet as far out as you can and still close the bolt without too much force(read not much at all)

[Bart B.]

Kraig, with due respect, the popular belief that a given set of components won't shoot well across different rifles or barrels is in fact, still a myth. But I agree, that it may not work with some barrels. Especially those with bores that aren't correct for the bullet. The Brits learned in the mid '60's that the 7.62 NATO bullets they got for their converted SMLE's and fullbore match rifles needed .3065-in. grooved barrels to shoot those undersize .3070- .3075-in. diameter arsenal bullets they had to use.

I well know that some military teams had two (sometimes three) rifles; an LC gun and a Sierra gun. More often that not, it was the barrel's groove diameter, not the number of grooves that was the reason. The USN and USAF 7.62 SA Garand and M14 barrels used in competition were 4-groove ones with .3075- to .3079-in. groove diameters. Both the M2 military match (.3086-in.) and Sierra (.3082-in.) bullets shot well in them as both were bigger than groove diameters. Some of those SA barrels had groove dia.'s larger than Sierra bullets and none of 'em shot Sierra's worth a hoot. There were rumors going around in the mid '60's that Springfield Arsenal used "worn out" M14 barrel broaches to cut the rifling in those super-tight 7.62 NATO M1 barrels they made for the USN and USAF; makes sense to me, anyway. The 'smiths at the USN Match Conditioning Unit air gaged all the SA 7.62 1:12 twist Garand barrels they got then set aside all the tight ones for their best match M1's. Those with larger groove diameters were used in regular service rifles for recruit training or trophy rifles.

Folks who have air gaged M14's SA barrels used by the Army, NG and USMC teams found most of them had too large a groove diameter to shoot M852 and other loads with Sierras well but did pretty good with good lots of M118. But the USN and USAF teams didn't use those barrels larger than Sierra bullet diameters in their team rifles so they didn't need but one gun.

It's a well know issue amongst top bolt gun folks in the USA that Sierra's .308 bullets weighing 168 and heavier typically shoot best in 5- or 6-groove barrels. When Sierra came out in '91 with their 155-gr. Palma bullet, 4-groove barrels shot 'em the best. Not a surprise as other countries around the world needed 4 grooves to shoot the standard 7.62 NATO 147-gr. ball bullet accurate in their matches; 5 and 6 groove barrels didn't do so good.

I'm not surprised at what goes on in military team loading shops. Been there. Watched that. The all do a great job. They're the ones who first learned that reloading fired cases from an M1 or M14 is a waste of time if best accuracy is the objective. They pulled 172's from M118 rounds then replaced them with a 168 or 180 Sierra MK's; even 190's atop IMR4320. They've loaded new Federal or Winchester brass with components that benchrest record holders would envy. And they even learned that new belted cases for their .30-.338's and .300 Winnie's shot more accurate than fired ones either neck only or full length sized ones.

Seems the long range benchrest folks shoot a lot of Sierra's to win matches and set records. Yes, factory bullets can be as accurate as those hand made in Rorschach dies. For what it's worth, factory bullets have shot smaller many-shot groups at the longer ranges than those hand-made custom ones the short-range benchresters use. Some batches of Sierras tested in the ones (under 2/10ths) and these won most of the big matches and set most of the records in highpower competition when the .308 Win. was popular. Sierra doesn't sell these any more as some folks who got those 1000-bullet plain brown boxes of ugly, greasy lanolin coated, unpolished Match Kings got upset when they found one or two that had a bad fold or dimple in their jacket so Sierra stopped their sales. These bullets have shot the smallest groups (with 20 or more shots each) at long range. Note that if you only shoot 5 shot groups, it's feasable that once in a great while, a really tiny one will happen.

Did Gene Barnett make any barrels himself? I thought he just profiled Douglas barrels. But they did shoot pretty good. Sometimes called a "blunderbuss" by those knowing they usually had larger grooves at the muzzle than the rifling origin, many a great scores were shot with them. Air gaging one shows this to be the norm for such barrels. Same thing happened when folks profiled any button rifled barrel blank for Garands. Didn't happen with most single-point cut-rifled barrels such as Obermeyer or Kreiger. But if a Winchester .308 Win. hammer forged match barrel was profiled for an M1 or M14, the front half got tighter. These barrels shot the LC 172's better than Sierra's as they were typically around .3083-in. groove diameter and were often called "leg" guns by folks using them to shoot issued M118 at the EIC matches.

[GuitarXM]

So, I am using Remington cases with CCI #200 primers...with IMR4064 powder....168 gr sierra match king....


So you think I should start 10% under max load using the Sierra manual which has a lower max load than the Hodgdon?

I dont know what Remington cases compare to? Do they compare to Federal or Winchester cases, because I think that will help determine my choice of using Sierra or Hodgdon manual.

[Bart B.]

Sam06 says: "If you are using brass that you shot in your gun and you are looking for accuracy..............Neck size. It can be done with a FL die. Turn the sizing die into the press so that a nickle will just fit between the die and the ram with the shell holder on it. It will do a min FL size on your brass."

The most accurate rifles I know of have shot that way with full-length sized cases. Many benchresters have started going back to this method. Just don't set the fired case shoulder back more than a few thousandths of an inch. I get better accuracy with new cases compared to type of neck-only sized ones; especially belted ones such as the .300 Win. Mag.

I and many folks have tried using coin-spaced full-length sizing dies to neck size; all without success. As the fired case neck starts into the die's neck, the die's body starts sizing the case down forcing the shoulder forward. Unless the die's shoulder forces the case shoulder back a bit, the case usually has more headspace than the chamber does. One can see this happening by using a case headspace gage such as the RCBS Precision Mic, Stoney Point or others measuring the same thing.

Sierra Bullet's been full-length sizing all their bottle neck cases for accuracy tests since the early 1950's. Nobody shoots their bullets more accurate than they do, but some have equalled it with full-length sized cases.

[SL1]

Guitar XM,

Please tell us what rifle you will be shooting your .308 handloads in.

There are some different considerations for gas-operated guns and bolt guns with respect to concerns about over-max charges.

SL1

[Sam06]

Bart, I am going to have to disagree with you on the neck sizing issue. The most accurate rounds I have ever shot were neck sized in a L.E Wilson Die on my Arbor press and shot in my BAT action 6mmBR rifle. For other cartridges that I use to shoot paper at for accuracy I only neck size. I turn necks and check for concentricity. Maybe I am all alone out there doing that but I guess I will stay there. The guys I shoot with Neck size also but I am not a big time competitor or in the running for best shot in the world. I do a lot of shooting and reloading and I have never turned my FL die down all the way and pushed my brass back to factory specs. Even for hunting guns when I FL size it is just to bump the shoulder a little and squeeze the body some so they function 100%. The brass I neck size for gets hit with a body die when it starts getting fat. This method also reduces the amount of trimming I do and increases case life. So by neck sizing for me, the brass lasts longer, the rounds perform better and are more accurate, I trim less and all my guns shoot better with my handloads than with any factory load bar none. That is what reloading is all about to me

I want my brass to fit the chamber, be straight and most of all be the same. The key to accuracy in rounds for me is they are all the same. When you take all the variables away the only variable is you and nature.

Now back to the thread:

When I start out to reload for a cartridge I have never loaded for. I look at the bullet manufactures recommendations(Serria, Hornady, Speer ect.ect). I find they have better data than the powder manufactures. I Then look at what the accuracy load is for that caliber. That is usually my choice for a start. You will find it is normally in the upper 1/4 of the load scale for that Bullet/powder combo. That is the way I did it before there was an internet and it worked for me. That saves time in loading up in 2 grain increments all over the place. You will find that, for the most part, the fastest load is not the most accurate load.

As far as primers are concerned you will find that some primers work better with some powders. CCI match primers are a good place to start but I have found that regular primers work even better with some powders, it is a hit or miss thing and requires a lot of experimentation.

Brass is another matter all together. If you don't want to spend a bunch on brass by getting Lapua/Norma brass, I would say Winchester is a good place to start. I find Federal Brass a little on the soft side but that is not all together a bad thing. It just makes trimming more of a chore. Remington is good brass also. I stay away from any kind of weird foreign brass because I may not be able to get more of it, Lapua is the exception.

Seating Depth is very important. This is something you will have to determine yourself and you will have to figure out if you want the rounds to fit the magazine or not. By and Large the closer you can seat the bullet to the lands the more accurate the round will be(up to a point).

You will never be able to determine what is going to work in your rifle on this forum. You will get some good tips but the best place to find what works the best is at the bench and the range, plus its more fun than typing.

By far the most important thing you can do is keep you rounds as alike as possible. Getting rid variables increases accuracy.

If you want the most accurate load for my 308; a Blueprinted Remington 700 PSS here it is-
175gr Sierra BTHP matchking(Moly coated)
41g of IMR 4064
CCI BR-2 primer
Lapua Brass, Once fired, neck turned and neck sized
COL: 2.921" This is a little long and will not fit in the magazine.

This load has a SD of 12fps and runs 2530 fps. It shoots inside an Inch from my gun. My notes say best group is .887" at 200yds(5 shots) But that is my gun not yours so approach all internet loads like they were posted by the unibomber.

I think you should start with 41.3gr of 4064. The 168gr BTHP Matchking likes to run around 2550-2650fps. Try mocking up a bullet to a COAL of 2.85 and see if it chambers. If it does try that. This is for a Bolt gun only! 4064 will work fine in a Gas gun but I find that 4895 is better in a M1A. If its for a AR style gun you are on your own, I don't have one.

[Bart B.]

Sam06 says: "Bart, I am going to have to disagree with you on the neck sizing issue.'

Fine. Most folks do. Compare this information from full-length sized cases to the current benchrest records:

40 shots, 600 yards, M70 Win. in .308 shooting Sierra 190's; 1.9 inches.

Eight 10-shot groups, 600 yards, same rifle but Lapua 185's; all under 1.5 inches, smallest .7 inch, avg. about 1.1 inch.

20 shots, 300 yards, another M70 in .308 with Sierra 168's; .4 inch.

20 shots, 800 yards, Paramount in .308 Win with Sierra 155's; 3.2 inches.

20 shots, 1000 yards, Win. 70 in .30-.338 with Sierra 190's; 5.9 inches.

30 shots (half with new virgin cases, half with properly full-length sized ones), 1000 yards, Win. 70 in .30-.338 Keele Long Neck with Sierra 200's; 6.8 inches.

And with 20 new virgin Winchester .308 cases and Sierra 155's with metered, not weighed charges from another Win. 70 at 600 yards; 2.7 inches.

[Sam06]

You got me Bart, I am all messed up. I just threw my Redding Competition Neck sizing dies and Body dies out the window along with my Forester CoAxe press. Next to will be that darn Sinclar Neck turner that I hate so much. Now I will go get a Lee FL die set and get in the record books.

Give GuitarXM some advise on the correct load for his 308.

You are correct that "Most" folks do FL size but what you don't say is how they do it. Most folks don't do it in One step. Enlighten us, I am not too old a dog to learn new tricks..............Sam

[GuitarXM]

I am shooting out of a Remington 700 SPS Varmint...
Bolt-Action
1:12
26" heavy barrel

[Sam06]

Thats a nice bullet launcher! Start out at 41gr of IMR 4064. I think you will find the 168gr SMK likes to run around 2600-2650fps. Make a dummy bullet and just seat it to 2.90. Blacken the tip with a felt pen. Load it in the gun and you will see it hit the lands. Measure it now and subtract .018, now your bullet will be seated about .018 off the lands. Make sure it works in your gun and magazine if that is what you want. Use that bullet to set up your bullet seater die. Load one round and check it to make sure it works. That will maximize accuracy. You can mess around with this to find the sweet spot.

I forgot when you have a bunch of data from different sources and they are conflicting. Average them and reduce the load by 5%. That should give you a safe load.

[GuitarXM]

I am shooting out of a Remington 700 SPS Varmint...
Bolt-Action
1:12
26" heavy barrel

Here are the specs from the sierra manual (bullet)
Firearm Used: Savage 12VSS
Barrel Length: 26"
Twist: 1 x 10"
Case: Federal
Trim-to Length: 2.005"
Primer: Fed 210M

168gr sierra match king
IMR-4064 37.8 39.7 41.5 43.4
Accuracy Load RE-15 42.0 2600 2521

10% under MAX load would be 39 grains....

Hodgon manual (Powder) doesn't specify the test rifle.
Case: Winchester Barrel Length: 24"
Twist: 1:12" Trim Length: 2.005"
Primer: FEDERAL 210M

Starting Load Max Load

168 GR. SIE HPBT IMR 4064 .308" 2.800" 41.5 2518 43,800 PSI 45.9C 2766 58,800 PSI

10% under max load will be 41.3...




So basically I am deciding whether to start 41.3 or 39...
I def. want my rounds to fit the magazine, so I am assuming OAL can't be more than 2.8
I have those Lee spoons and an RCBS 502 scale..

I agree 100% that I won't be able to find a load until I shoot my rifle at the range.
But this site has been VERY helpful, and you guys answer all questions which I am very grateful for.
Every tip helps....

So Sam, I see that you recommend to follow the bullet manufacturer's manual.
But in this case your recommendation of 41.3 would be the starting load for Hodgdon manual (Powder)?

[GuitarXM]

How do you know though that it will touch the lands at 2.9 and not say 2.85 etc....?

[Sam06]

I would start at the high end of the load chart. Now I know that sounds like contradicting advice but what you need to look at is the Velocity. You want the bullet to go between 2550 and 2650fps. This is where a long bullet like that will stabilize(High BC). That said 40gr will get you 2550 and 41.7 will get you 2650 or there about. 39gr is not enough to do that in fact it is less than the min load in the Sierra,Hornaday,Nosler and Speer books I have book.

Where the bullet hits the lands is going to be different in all guns due to variances in chamber depth. 2.90 should be long enough to hit the lands. If it doesn't just make it longer till it does(use a bullet puller to do this). You will know because you will be chamber seating the bullet. They make a gauge to determine this but you can get a rough estimate as I outlined above.

Last thought, In my testing of the 308, I have never had good luck below the 2500fps or less than 40gr of 4064 in the 308. I would not start load development below 40gr of IMR 4064 under a 168gr SMK.

I hope this helps you out. Here is a site that gives some good advice on reloading the 308 and its a good read also.
http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html
http://home.comcast.net/~jesse99/caseprep.html

[Bart B.]

Sam, don’t fret about those reloading tools you tossed out the window. I only hope you opened it first else your tootsie’s will bleed if you walk around your reloading room in your sleep and they get cut on broken glass. All’s not lost; the Shooter’s Fairey sent me an e-mail saying she found those tools, cleaned them up then quietly put ‘em back in their safe places. They now await your next adventure.

Meanwhile, proper full-length bottle neck fired case sizing in easy steps.....

1. Measure the loaded round neck diameter of your favorite load. Write it down. If you have different neck diameters for different cases of for the same cartridge because you’ve turned their necks to different thicknesses, write ‘em all down.

2. Get a standard, full-length sizing die for each loaded round neck diameter you wrote down. I use RCBS; others have used Pacific, Bonanza, Lyman, ..... the list goes on and on. Doesn’t make any significant difference. It’s important their body diameters at shoulder and pressure ring be about 3/1000ths smaller than the fired cases; most dies are this way, but check ‘em to be sure.

3. Strip the die, then insert it top first into a lathe headstock.

4. Using a wood dowel with a fine saw-kerfed end, put a turn of 200-grit emery paper on it. The outside diameter needs to be a tiny bit larger than your die’s neck diameter. Don’t forget to wrap the emery paper the same way the die will turn, then put a coat of light oil on it.

5. Turn on the lathe at a medium speed, then run the oily e-papered dowel in and out of the neck from the die’s bottom a time or two.

6. Use a hole micrometer to measure the die’s neck diameter. You want the die’s neck diameter to be 2- to 3-thousandths smaller than the loaded round’s neck diameter you’re making that die for. How much depends on neck wall thickness and bullet diameter. I had to play around with this process to get it right.

7. Repeat steps 5 and 6 until the desired diameter of the die’s neck is met, clean it out with a solvent, dry then slightly lube it. Practice on a ho-hum die if you wish, then do your good die’s perfect. Label the die with it’s neck diameter. I’ve got em for my .308 at .331- to .337-inch in .001-inch steps.

8. Reassemble the die with lock ring but don’t use the decapping stem.

9. Deprime your fired cases with any die that won’t touch the case but easily push primers out, then clean/tumble them as you wish.

10. Uniformly lube your cases in a foam lined can on a Thumblers Tumbler (or other such thing) by filling it half full of deprimed cases after lubing the foam inside with a bit of your favorite lube. Doing this helps all the full-length sized cases have the same headspace. Don’t use too much lube.

11. Install and lock the neck-lapped die in your press such that it’ll set back a fired case shoulder no more than about .002-in. Use a gage (RCBS Prec. Mic, Stoney Point, etc.) to measure case headspace. The absence of the decapping stem and its neck-bending ball leaves the case neck correctly sized and much straighter than if the ball did it. This works the neck brass half as much. Many folks get 50 to 90 reloads per case doing this. They do have to trim about every 10 or so loads as the case gets about .005-inch longer; depends on how much body and neck sizing is done.

12. Send me a bank certified check for $1,234,567.89 as a fee for supplying this very secret information. Please send it by registered mail, too. The last several folks I sent this info to said they mailed me their checks but none of them never showed up.

Use these in standard dimension, minimum headspace SAAMI spec chambers; tight necks not needed.