VZ 58 or AR 15 SBR?

[dakota.potts]

Looking to do my first NFA firearm on a Form 1 here soon. I'd like to build it from one of my rifles and not spend a lot of money. The goal is a package with an OAL as short as possible, reliable, and suitable for self defense.

For the AR 15, I know that I can get a .300 BLK 8" upper for under $400, which would be my absolute limit. However, even with the fancy short stocks on the market, the AR is going to be at least 4-5" longer than the VZ in the most collapsed position. A stock like the NEA CCS or LWRC UCIW will take that in about an inch, but that's a lot of money for a short improvement. After a lot of research, I think I'd be going with the .300 BLK. The LAW side folding stock is a choice, but I don't like not being able to shoot it folded

The VZ 58 is already a very compact package at about 26" folded. I see a lot of very short barreled variants, especially popular in Canada where they're a lot easier to own (compared to their normal firearms) and the VZs are popular.
I imagine the barrel on mine could be cut down to leave just enough room for a new front sight to snug up to the gas port, making the barrel about 8" and the OAL around 20" vs. 24" for about the shortest possible AR I can figure out with the same barrel length. I'm not sure there's any feasible low cost way of shortening the gas system, which I'd be open to, but it seems like cutting the barrel and moving the sight in is going to be the most feasible option I have.

So with the AR:
Easier to build
Very easy to revert to standard configuration
Leaves me open for other short uppers down the line without new SBR stamps
Subsonic .300 rounds might at least take the edge off of the noise and save some hearing if I have to use it
Ammo is a lot more expensive
Package is longer overall
Better accuracy and long range capability

VZ 58
Likely Cheaper
Shorter overall package
Cheaper ammo, more opportunity for training
Much more unique (just fun)
Recoil will likely be much higher since it already kicks.
7.62X39 in a barrel that size will be very loud, especially with any muzzle device
Not much opportunity to bring the gun back to original configuration

Anybody have experience with the VZ 58 SBR? There are plenty of resources for the AR 15, not so much for the VZ

[Venom1956]

The AR would be the better option. It would allow you to use any SBR upper and switch it up as needed. 9mm .223, .300blk or .22lr its hard to argue that kind of flexibility.

[9x19]

Have you had any trigger time with a short barreled rifle?

To me, the muzzle blast is pretty noticeable, and I think you may find yourself shopping for a suppressor pretty quick... If you go the VZ route, leave enough in front of the front sight for threading.

[dakota.potts]

The only SBR I've shot was a 10.5" 5.56. Blast wasn't objectionable and the brake directed it away from the shooter well, but indoors probably would have been bad.

I do want a suppressor but it could be a while before I have the opportunity to afford a decent one. Seems to me that the .300 BLK should have far less muzzle blast and when I do suppress it, will work far more effectively with that

[9x19]

I haven't shot a SBR in .300 Whisper/Blackout, but I have fired a short AK and it wasn't my idea of a fun time, even just under a covered firing position.

I think the AR makes the most sense for the reasons other folks have mentioned.

Good luck and let us know which way you go.

[dakota.potts]

The more I think about it, I'm very tempted to do a VZ 58 down the line (something like this one). It really seems like it's the ultimate in portable rifle power. Something like 17" folded.

However, the .300 seems far more practical for many reasons and I think that's what I'll probably end up doing. Seems far more feasible at this time, and if I had to use it, I wouldn't end up flashbanging myself every time I pulled the trigger.

[Sharkbite]

When you take a rifle round and shoot it out of a pistol length barrel all kinds of bad things happen.

Muzzle blast and flash go up (watch the vid posted above)
Velocity goes down. Sometimes below the threshold of effectivenessfor that bullet

I own a bunch of SBR's. I like the compact platform but you have to be realistic in what you will end up with. My 10.5" 556 gun is LOUD and BRIGHT. So i use it 99% of the time with a can on it

The 300 blackout cartridge is a much better SBR round. Mostly loaded with Mag pistol powders (H110, 4227 for supersonic loads and 1680 for subsonics). It is a more efficient short barreled round.

I have a 9" AAC gun in 300blk and its a joy to shoot surpressed and not obnoxious with a bare muzzle. I would guesstimate its about as loud as a 20" 556 gun is, but its only 9" long

[Mobuck]

I reportedly "don't know anything" (get told this quite often by "The Grouch Attack") but it would seem to me that the ultimate combination for the NFA AR would be a short 10.5"-12" barrel with a suppressor. Efficient, effective, easy to shoot, and economical to feed. Not excessively loud w/o the can and doesn't lose a tremendous amount of velocity when cut back to 10-12".
I have a .5.56 x 11.5" AR "pistol" and it's just plain painful to shoot w/o both ear plugs and muffs and the fireball is far too distracting for general use.

[mississaugagunnut]

I have both a short barreled VZ in 762 and an AR with a 10.5" barrel.

The VZ would be my pick for shtf scenario. It is 100% reliable and is built like a tank.

The AR would be my choice for fun plinker and training gun. It has lighter recoil and is easily maintained. Parts for the AR are more readily available as are aftermarket parts.

Both platforms are excellent.

[Gunfixr]

I haven't gotten to play with a short vz, but several short aks, and more than a few short (some incredibly so) shotguns.
Seems to me, once they get past a certain point, recoil goes down.
I know that doesn't sound right, and it wasn't what I expected, but it is what I experienced.
So, I don't think recoil is going to be a problem with the vz.
Now, muzzle noise, yes, it does increase. But, the right muzzle device will alleviate that. A simple directive cone on a flash hider will change everything. There are companies that already make these for this purpose, they are not nfa regulated, as they do not suppress the sound, simply redirect it.
As for muzzle noise, an 8" Saiga 12 is not very fun to shoot.

[barnbwt]

"Recoil will likely be much higher since it already kicks."
If your experience is with a VZ2008, remove Century's stupid AK slant brake and the recoil is markedly less than an AK's (and less violent, if slightly 'pushier' than my AR70 in 5.56). The rifle's center of gravity is so far back that the slant brake pushes the barrel down and the stock up --into your face . With a neutral brake, it pushes straight back.

Here's an idea for inspiration; replace a shorty VZ58's handguard with an over-sized suppressor (or simple tubular handguard) and you've functionally got a VZZ Vintorez.

Are we seriously worrying about long distance accuracy from a super-short SBR of any type? To each their own and all, but considering how low your velocities will be with blackout/x39 type rounds, long range accuracy will depend more on your range finding skill and hold over than bolt lockup. FWIW, the VZ is one of the more accurate x39 platforms out there (especially considering how little accurizing development has been done for them so far) --a non-pencil barrel non-chrome-lined barrel will probably yield nice accuracy.

TCB