rod powder consistency

lakebilly · May 6, 2008, 01:16 PM

using varget for .303, .243, .30-06. varying throws, as much as .05gr. change powder or measure every throw?

TexasSeaRay · May 6, 2008, 01:27 PM

Powder trickler.

Jeff

Jim Watson · May 6, 2008, 01:32 PM

.05 gr would be fabulous, in the laboratory scale range.
If you mean .5 gr, then that would not be great for target ammunition but for hunting or blasting is probably about as close as the factory gets.

If you meant .5 after keying .05 you really need to be more careful with those numbers. There are places a decimal point could lead to personal injury.

30Cal · May 6, 2008, 01:45 PM

Varget is about as short as they come for extruded powders and is the best for consistancy. 0.5grs is quite a bit of variation; and by that I mean that your measure should be able to deliver more uniform drops than that. 0.2-0.3grs would be pretty typical and will deliver top knotch accuracy at short range (300yds and less).

The uniformity of your drops is directly related to how smoothly and uniformly you operate your powdermeasure. Haphazard operation will give you haphazard charge uniformity.

FWIW, most reloading scales are accurate to within 0.1grs.

DEDON45 · May 6, 2008, 02:20 PM

What kind of powder measure are you using?

lakebilly · May 6, 2008, 07:42 PM

i did mean .5 i am using uniflow w/micrometer, throwing a charge weighing, trickling WHATEVER,

on chargemaster. i can load fairly well, would prefer to be shooting!

snuffy · May 7, 2008, 12:02 AM

Quote:

i did mean .5 i am using uniflow w/micrometer, throwing a charge weighing, trickling WHATEVER, on chargemaster. i can load fairly well, would prefer to be shooting!

What you need is an attitude adjustment. Careless reloading can be hazardous to your safety and those around you. Either knuckle down and learn the ropes or quit before you hurt yourself.

lakebilly · May 7, 2008, 04:37 AM

hey snuffy. i bought equipment more than a year ago, w/ next to no help from anyone i have been researching and studying, talking to every person i could find about reloading almost everyday. i have a 11 yr old son that is my prize possesion who is doing this w/me. i reloaded my first shell about two weeks ago. you might find out about my attitude before you comment about it. i appreciate constructive critism, all else is ambient noise! (Treachery and tricks are the practises of fools who don't have the sense to be honest. paraphrase B. Franklin)

Martyn4802 · May 7, 2008, 05:37 AM

What Texas Sea Ray said.
Trickle up... It's the only way.
Most powder measures are created equal in terms of handling rod powder; none can do the job well. So, trickle up...

Martyn

lakebilly · May 7, 2008, 06:23 AM

thanx, seems to be the cosensus. thanx for the sacrifice & service!

'the biggest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation w/ the average voter' Churchill

'i can control the masses w/ bread & sport' Nero

Edward429451 · May 7, 2008, 10:21 AM

But you showed your attitude in a couple different posts.

Dude, you shouldn't posture your bad self against Snuffy, you're seeking info and he's one of the most experianced reloaders on this board! A little humbleness & humility will get you more info than attitude...

Patience. Calm down a little. All caps is the equivilent of yelling in print. Reloading can be frustrating at times. Frustration & impatience help reloading not one whit. So your measure doesn't throw Varget well, you learned something. Don't throw that knowledge out the window from frustration. Life is 10% what it throws at you and 90% how you react to it. He's right, attitude is the 1st thing to adjust before reloading.

snuffy · May 7, 2008, 11:17 AM

It's darn hard to sense a person's demeanor from the printed word on a forum like this. What I sensed was somebody that didn't want to be bothered with details, was mad at the powder measure, wanted an easy answer. If I was wrong, I hereby apologize.

Quote:

throwing a charge weighing, trickling WHATEVER,

As has been said, varget is about as short cut as extruded powder gets. Most new extruded powders on the market are short cut so they flow through measures well. Some old long cut powders are now offered in short cut.

If your uniflow doesn't handle varget any better than that, then there's something wrong with it, OR you aren't operating it properly. Since you've just started loading, it's possible it just hasn't been properly "broken in". That means a coating of graphite from the powder hasn't had a chance to build up on the inside surfaces. Try this; Run a whole pound of powder through the measure at maximum charge. Or get some powdered graphite at a hardware store and put some inside the measure. You could also be experiencing static cling. The plastic hopper on the measure can accumulate a static charge that interferes with the powder flowing. Take a dryer softener sheet, rub the outside of the measure. The graphite will also help dissipate that charge.

As far as technique, make real sure you are consistent with your throws. Make the same motion against the stops each time. I have a Hornady measure on my dillon 650 for .223. With a case activated linkage, the throws are VERY close. I weighed those throws over a ten shell course, they were within .01 +- with varget!

**Mike Irwin** · May 7, 2008, 11:19 AM

With IMR type powders half a grain variation really isn't all that much.

I suspect that you would be very surprised at the accuracy you could get with these rounds.

For years I loaded .243 volumetrically, IMR 4064, using a Uniflow.

I paid attention to my loading process, how I operated the measure, and after getting the measure set only occasionally weighed a charge to make sure that things were still on setting.

Nominal charge was, IIRC (this was 20+ years ago) about 37 or so grains of 4064 behind a 100 gr. Hornady bullet.

That load gave me, consistently, between a quarter and half inch groups at 100 yards.

lakebilly · May 7, 2008, 12:37 PM

Snuffy, i mean you know disrespect at all. my 'whatever' in caps meant, anywhere from.01-.5 gr or more. i am frustrated w/inconsistent measures. i have resigned myself to measuring every load. that's the price you pay for accuracy and safety. as i said my prize possesion is very interested in this and i took more than a year researching "details" to make it something we could do together that wouldn't become a nightmare. 'Fools' rage against wise counsel! i don't have a problem w/ constructive criticism. i suspect i may have a problem w/communication skills. no offense intended. lb

lakebilly · May 7, 2008, 12:47 PM

the uniflow i am using w/ my single stage is used, sometimes feel a bind in the motion. i did run a bunch of powder through it, was very mindful to be consistent in my motion. most of the 'pros' that i have talked to have said that's the "rod powder" i would have like to run some rounds on the rcbs w/ piggyback. things like lubing and the measuring inconsistencies have me thinking that i'll run rifle loads (rod powder) on single stage press measuring every load and pistol on progressive.

Archie · May 7, 2008, 12:58 PM

All problems with misunderstands aside - a .5 grain variation is not an a accuracy problem.

I've run tests wherein I weighed and painstakingly made sure the power charges were all identical (which is within .1 grain of powder on my scale). I weighed and cleaned and neck reamed and trimmed and then re-weighed the cases, using only cases within 1 grain variation (for a case weighing 165 grains or so.) I weighed the bullets (waste of time, they're identical.) I even weighed and matched primers.

The ten shot strings showed velocity variations as great as some of my casual ammo. The ammo shot well, but I've achieved as good results with much less work.

Frankly, the variation in powder charge - within one percent (that's .5 grain in a 50 grain load) is nothing. Certainly not with random brass and a rifle that hasn't been pillar bedded, action trued, barrel 'fixed' and so forth.

Spend more time on checking cases and making sure the bullets are seated squarely in the case. Thrown powder charges from any of the major powder measure makers will do just fine for about anything any of us mortals want to do.

lakebilly · May 7, 2008, 01:11 PM

edward, i have worked in service oriented businesses all my life. i worked 8 yrs as a bouncer in a college town bar, not one fight ever. i am prone to be misunderstood. i am working hard at my social skills. i can take it as well as i give it and i love 'iron sharpening iron'. respect is in short supply. your admonition is well taken as is your advice. looking forward to learning and passing it on. lb

DEDON45 · May 7, 2008, 01:47 PM

.5 grains difference in a rifle case is no big deal (so long as that .5 doesn't take you over the max you've determined to be safe in your gun of choice)... it can be an issue in small capacity pistol cases, but I've found that most fine powder used in them don't vary by more than .1 or .2 when dropped out of your average rotor-style measure. I just make sure that even it it drop .2 more on occasion that it doesn't take me over my self-established max (often under the book max).

Snuffy's ideas to smooth out your measure operation will help, too... my Hornady measure needed all of those tips, and a thorough degreasing, before it'd behave. Now it's like the rock of gibraltar.

30Cal · May 7, 2008, 02:52 PM

Let me add a few tips on consistancy.

1. Spend an hour and log the weight of each charge (don't dump the powder back in). Note any charge that is crunchy or interrupted or whatever. This will show you how long it takes for the powder to settle and how far down you can drain the cylinder before the charge weights start to wander (I make a refill line on mine with a Sharpy). It'll give you insight into when you should expect a charge to be outside the norm and you'll be able to simply discard those and move on.

2. If the powdermeasure doesn't have a baffle, build or buy one. This will "insulate" (for lack of a better word) the thrown charges somewhat from the powder in the cylinder.

3. Smooth, consistant operation. Maybe it works better if you work it gently, maybe firmly. I had a Redding measure that worked well if you bumped it a second time at the top of the stroke. My Dillon works well if I tap the side of the body between strokes.

You should be able to get inside 0.3grs with Varget which is more than adequate for ultra accuracy inside 200-300yds.

May 6, 2008, 01:16 PM	#1
lakebilly Member Join Date: May 6, 2008 Location: NY Posts: 41	rod powder consistency using varget for .303, .243, .30-06. varying throws, as much as .05gr. change powder or measure every throw?

May 6, 2008, 01:27 PM	#2
TexasSeaRay Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 810	Powder trickler. Jeff __________________ If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing.

May 7, 2008, 04:37 AM	#8
lakebilly Member Join Date: May 6, 2008 Location: NY Posts: 41	attitude adj. hey snuffy. i bought equipment more than a year ago, w/ next to no help from anyone i have been researching and studying, talking to every person i could find about reloading almost everyday. i have a 11 yr old son that is my prize possesion who is doing this w/me. i reloaded my first shell about two weeks ago. you might find out about my attitude before you comment about it. i appreciate constructive critism, all else is ambient noise! (Treachery and tricks are the practises of fools who don't have the sense to be honest. paraphrase B. Franklin) Last edited by lakebilly; May 7, 2008 at 04:41 AM. Reason: spelling

May 7, 2008, 05:37 AM	#9
Martyn4802 Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2007 Location: Grayling, Michigan Posts: 737	What Texas Sea Ray said. Trickle up... It's the only way. Most powder measures are created equal in terms of handling rod powder; none can do the job well. So, trickle up... Martyn __________________ US Army Retired NRA Benefactor Life Member JPFO

May 7, 2008, 06:23 AM	#10
lakebilly Member Join Date: May 6, 2008 Location: NY Posts: 41	consensus thanx, seems to be the cosensus. thanx for the sacrifice & service! 'the biggest argument *against* democracy is a five minute conversation w/ the average voter' Churchill 'i can control the masses w/ bread & sport' Nero

May 6, 2008, 01:32 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	.05 gr would be fabulous, in the laboratory scale range. If you mean .5 gr, then that would not be great for target ammunition but for hunting or blasting is probably about as close as the factory gets. If you meant .5 after keying .05 you really need to be more careful with those numbers. There are places a decimal point could lead to personal injury.

May 6, 2008, 01:45 PM	#4
30Cal Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2002 Posts: 1,264	Varget is about as short as they come for extruded powders and is the best for consistancy. 0.5grs is quite a bit of variation; and by that I mean that your measure should be able to deliver more uniform drops than that. 0.2-0.3grs would be pretty typical and will deliver top knotch accuracy at short range (300yds and less). The uniformity of your drops is directly related to how smoothly and uniformly you operate your powdermeasure. Haphazard operation will give you haphazard charge uniformity. FWIW, most reloading scales are accurate to within 0.1grs.

May 6, 2008, 02:20 PM	#5
DEDON45 Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2008 Posts: 278	What kind of powder measure are you using?

May 6, 2008, 07:42 PM	#6
lakebilly Member Join Date: May 6, 2008 Location: NY Posts: 41	i did mean .5 i am using uniflow w/micrometer, throwing a charge weighing, trickling WHATEVER, on chargemaster. i can load fairly well, would prefer to be shooting!

May 7, 2008, 10:21 AM	#11
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	But you showed your attitude in a couple different posts. Dude, you shouldn't posture your bad self against Snuffy, you're seeking info and he's one of the most experianced reloaders on this board! A little humbleness & humility will get you more info than attitude... Patience. Calm down a little. All caps is the equivilent of yelling in print. Reloading can be frustrating at times. Frustration & impatience help reloading not one whit. So your measure doesn't throw Varget well, you learned something. Don't throw that knowledge out the window from frustration. Life is 10% what it throws at you and 90% how you react to it. He's right, attitude is the 1st thing to adjust before reloading.

May 7, 2008, 11:19 AM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	With IMR type powders half a grain variation really isn't all that much. I suspect that you would be very surprised at the accuracy you could get with these rounds. For years I loaded .243 volumetrically, IMR 4064, using a Uniflow. I paid attention to my loading process, how I operated the measure, and after getting the measure set only occasionally weighed a charge to make sure that things were still on setting. Nominal charge was, IIRC (this was 20+ years ago) about 37 or so grains of 4064 behind a 100 gr. Hornady bullet. That load gave me, consistently, between a quarter and half inch groups at 100 yards. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 7, 2008, 12:37 PM	#14
lakebilly Member Join Date: May 6, 2008 Location: NY Posts: 41	details Snuffy, i mean you know disrespect at all. my 'whatever' in caps meant, anywhere from.01-.5 gr or more. i am frustrated w/inconsistent measures. i have resigned myself to measuring every load. that's the price you pay for accuracy and safety. as i said my prize possesion is very interested in this and i took more than a year researching "details" to make it something we could do together that wouldn't become a nightmare. 'Fools' rage against wise counsel! i don't have a problem w/ constructive criticism. i suspect i may have a problem w/communication skills. no offense intended. lb __________________ "Our destruction... From the innattention of the people to the concerns of their government... fail properly to scrutinze their conduct; that in this way they may be made dupes of designing men..." D. Webster

May 7, 2008, 12:47 PM	#15
lakebilly Member Join Date: May 6, 2008 Location: NY Posts: 41	powder measure the uniflow i am using w/ my single stage is used, sometimes feel a bind in the motion. i did run a bunch of powder through it, was very mindful to be consistent in my motion. most of the 'pros' that i have talked to have said that's the "rod powder" i would have like to run some rounds on the rcbs w/ piggyback. things like lubing and the measuring inconsistencies have me thinking that i'll run rifle loads (rod powder) on single stage press measuring every load and pistol on progressive. __________________ "Our destruction... From the innattention of the people to the concerns of their government... fail properly to scrutinze their conduct; that in this way they may be made dupes of designing men..." D. Webster

May 7, 2008, 12:58 PM	#16
Archie Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2000 Location: Hastings, Nebrasksa - the Hear Posts: 2,209	What Mike Irwin said... All problems with misunderstands aside - a .5 grain variation is not an a accuracy problem. I've run tests wherein I weighed and painstakingly made sure the power charges were all identical (which is within .1 grain of powder on my scale). I weighed and cleaned and neck reamed and trimmed and then re-weighed the cases, using only cases within 1 grain variation (for a case weighing 165 grains or so.) I weighed the bullets (waste of time, they're identical.) I even weighed and matched primers. The ten shot strings showed velocity variations as great as some of my casual ammo. The ammo shot well, but I've achieved as good results with much less work. Frankly, the variation in powder charge - within one percent (that's .5 grain in a 50 grain load) is nothing. Certainly not with random brass and a rifle that hasn't been pillar bedded, action trued, barrel 'fixed' and so forth. Spend more time on checking cases and making sure the bullets are seated squarely in the case. Thrown powder charges from any of the major powder measure makers will do just fine for about anything any of us mortals want to do. __________________ There ain't no free lunch, except Jesus. Archie Check out updated journal at http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/

May 7, 2008, 01:11 PM	#17
lakebilly Member Join Date: May 6, 2008 Location: NY Posts: 41	edward, i have worked in service oriented businesses all my life. i worked 8 yrs as a bouncer in a college town bar, not one fight ever. i am prone to be misunderstood. i am working hard at my social skills. i can take it as well as i give it and i love 'iron sharpening iron'. respect is in short supply. your admonition is well taken as is your advice. looking forward to learning and passing it on. lb __________________ "Our destruction... From the innattention of the people to the concerns of their government... fail properly to scrutinze their conduct; that in this way they may be made dupes of designing men..." D. Webster

May 7, 2008, 01:47 PM	#18
DEDON45 Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2008 Posts: 278	.5 grains difference in a rifle case is no big deal (so long as that .5 doesn't take you over the max you've determined to be safe in your gun of choice)... it can be an issue in small capacity pistol cases, but I've found that most fine powder used in them don't vary by more than .1 or .2 when dropped out of your average rotor-style measure. I just make sure that even it it drop .2 more on occasion that it doesn't take me over my self-established max (often under the book max). Snuffy's ideas to smooth out your measure operation will help, too... my Hornady measure needed all of those tips, and a thorough degreasing, before it'd behave. Now it's like the rock of gibraltar.

May 7, 2008, 02:52 PM	#19
30Cal Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2002 Posts: 1,264	Let me add a few tips on consistancy. 1. Spend an hour and log the weight of each charge (don't dump the powder back in). Note any charge that is crunchy or interrupted or whatever. This will show you how long it takes for the powder to settle and how far down you can drain the cylinder before the charge weights start to wander (I make a refill line on mine with a Sharpy). It'll give you insight into when you should expect a charge to be outside the norm and you'll be able to simply discard those and move on. 2. If the powdermeasure doesn't have a baffle, build or buy one. This will "insulate" (for lack of a better word) the thrown charges somewhat from the powder in the cylinder. 3. Smooth, consistant operation. Maybe it works better if you work it gently, maybe firmly. I had a Redding measure that worked well if you bumped it a second time at the top of the stroke. My Dillon works well if I tap the side of the body between strokes. You should be able to get inside 0.3grs with Varget which is more than adequate for ultra accuracy inside 200-300yds.