Substituting primer brands in handloads

duck911 · January 26, 2008, 09:16 PM

I've searched and read and searched some more, and the feedback seems really inconsistant - some folks say only follow published data ALWAYS, others say that substituting another primer brand is safe when backing down the load and working up again.

My local Sportsmans Warehouse seems to only ever have Winchester WSR primers in stock, and I've somehow ended up with 7 or 8 thousand because I pick some up every time I swing in there. But most of the loads for my .204 ruger call for Remington, CCI, or Federal primers. I'd like to start some load development with the primers I have in stock.

What's your take?

freakshow10mm · January 26, 2008, 11:02 PM

There can be issues with changing primers. Drop down to starting charge and work back up.

Sevens · January 26, 2008, 11:06 PM

If I were loading at or near (or beyond--

) a published max load and I had to change primer brands, ABSOLUTELY I'd reduce and work back up.

But the reality is, I haven't yet found the need to build max loads in any caliber, so I've never found the need to be wary of my primers. I shoot for accuracy and function. When I find that, I don't up the load.

And for darn sure--if I find a load recipe I like to try, I don't give a damn what primer they list as long as it's not a magnum primer, because I'm using what I have on hand.

saber9 · January 27, 2008, 12:47 AM

Sevens said it for me: While I pretty well standardized on CCI primers from the start (30+ years ago) for all my reloading, I never worried about using a different brand. This is strictly because I never load at the maximum level. IF for some reason I was and was changing brands, I would reduce the load at least 10% and test it before going on any further. I am conservative; I always want a safety cushion.

Red_Eagle · January 27, 2008, 01:01 AM

I swap out Federal 210M for WLR and vice versa all the time when I'm working up a new load. BUT, before I decide what my start and my max is going to be I cross reference 3-5 different manuals. The only time I dont is when the data calls for a magnum primer, I usually use a regular large rifle primer.

TexasSeaRay · January 27, 2008, 01:05 AM

I first look at where the load publishing data is coming from. Ie, if it is coming from a powder manufacturer like Alliant, who also now owns CCI/Speer . . . . then I'll check the same calibre load out elsewhere and compare vitals.

If it looks like there is no velocity or pressure difference between the CCI primer and the WSR primer, then I don't concern myself that much with "swapping brands of primer."

And like Sevens, rare is the time that I ever load to the max--and never beyond.

However, I copy, print, cut and tear, etc, various reloading articles out and put them in sheet protectors and then in loose leaf binders out in my reloading bench area.

If I see a particular load configuration offered by someone not affiliated or representing a manufacturer and he calls for WSR primer with "x" amount of grains of "y" amount of powder and "z" size, weight and brand of bullet . . . if I like the desired results he's getting, then I'll initially stick with that configuration until I can see for myself how it's working out.

THEN I might experiment with "swapping" primers.

Jeff

KD5NRH · January 27, 2008, 02:11 AM

I rarely pay any attention beyond standard or magnum, but then I start light and work my way up, watching for overpressure signs, and start over if I change primer brands if I'm close to max.

I do use some max loads, and tend to check the max load for accuracy with rifle rounds; if it's hitting where I want it with no pressure issues, I'll load up ten or fifteen as junk animal rounds, (things like mangy coyotes or dogs chasing cattle - I'm not going to eat it, and don't want the pelt, but need to shoot it anyway - the more damage done, the quicker the buzzards will deal with it) and back off to the lightest accurate loads for plinking.

Dogjaw · January 27, 2008, 08:08 AM

I went from CCI to WSP. Saw the results on paper and went back to using CCI. There are differences in primers causing changes in accuracy, but I've never come accross a pressure issue in swapping.

WESHOOT2 · January 27, 2008, 02:11 PM

I know of one 'handgun' primer that increased measured pressure by 5K; that is significant, ay?

Martyn4802 · January 28, 2008, 07:18 AM

As mentioned above, the ONLY way to keep from harm is to reduce powder charges and start from the minimum charge and work up when switching primers.

Martyn

Crimp · January 28, 2008, 10:44 AM

Quote:

I know of one 'handgun' primer that increased measured pressure by 5K

Which one was that, WE? They might be perfect for rubber bullets in the basement!

BigJimP · January 28, 2008, 01:31 PM

Swapping them can be a problem - but in general, I think its also generally accepted that Remington, Winchester and CCI small pistol primers are about the same. In most calibers you will find almost identical loads in a variety of books. I would not mix in Federal pistol primers - they are a lot softer - and for that reason alone, I just don't trust them in a press.

The way I and some of my buddies deal with this issue is we pick up 50,000 primers at a time - and we share them - then we always have a stock. Personally, I've stayed with CCI primers for over 30 years - but if I had to switch I would go to Winchester or Remington.

Not loading to the max is always a good idea - and I don't / but its good to check your loads once in a while - especially if you make any changes in components and be cautious.

Dlr8 · January 28, 2008, 02:52 PM

If you follow the golden rule ... start low and work up you will never have a problem with primers... if you don't follow the golden rule you are going to find problems everywhere including primers.. Sevens comment on MAX loads should be listed as golden rule no. 2 in my book .. I don't mess with them either.

Dave

Art Eatman · January 28, 2008, 05:17 PM

Speaking only for the .243 and .30-'06: I've been running max loads through for a long time. I've seen no difference in pressure signs, point of impact, whatever, whether I used Remington or Winchester primers. Mix 'em or match 'em, they've all been the same.

duck911 · January 30, 2008, 12:13 AM

Looks like the verdict is in!

37 voters said with 75.68% certainty that primers can be swapped with caution.

Lots of good advise and I think it goes without saying that even though it seems accepted that "primers are primers," to start your load LOW and work up carefully, always looking for sigh of too much pressure.

thanks everyone for the great feedback.

-Duck911

WESHOOT2 · January 30, 2008, 08:32 AM

I use CCI500 under my rubber-bullet basement loads (and have holes in my shop door to prove it.

IME rubber-bullet ammo should be treated EXACTLY the same as metallic-projectile ammo.
But more ventilation if shot in the basement.

rcupka · January 30, 2008, 10:01 AM

This is a good topic: I have a question?

Winchester large pistol primers are labeled Standard and Magnum. I have used the same primers for .45 acp and 44 mag. However Sportsmans Warehouse was out of Winchesters and had only CCI this week. CCI has seperate primers for Standard and Magnum applications. Are they actually interchangeable or are Magnum primers really only for things like .500S&W, .460, etc......

I would think that the dual purpose primers from Winchester are a compomise for one of the rounds.

rcupka

First Shirt · January 30, 2008, 09:58 PM

I will change between different brands of the same primer type (i.e. all Large Pistol Magnum primers, regardless of brand) but won't switch between Standard and Magnum in a given recipe. Found that a near-max load with standard primers was too hot when assembled over magnums. Also found that my favorite .45 Colt/H110 load did not play well with non-magnum primers.

SIGSHR · January 31, 2008, 12:02 AM

I recall an article in ST(?), it quoted the late great gunsmith Jim Clark as
saying:
" I use any old primer which comes along. I have never found any difference in primers."
In my experience in handgun reloading some primers are harder than others.

View Poll Results: swapping primers
Swap them all you want with no changes to the recipe	9	20.00%
Never, EVER change the components in a published recipe	0	0%
It's safe to substitute, as long as you back down 5%-10% and start load development over	33	73.33%
Other (explain)	3	6.67%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

January 26, 2008, 09:16 PM	#1
duck911 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Posts: 256	Substituting primer brands in handloads I've searched and read and searched some more, and the feedback seems really inconsistant - some folks say only follow published data ALWAYS, others say that substituting another primer brand is safe when backing down the load and working up again. My local Sportsmans Warehouse seems to only ever have Winchester WSR primers in stock, and I've somehow ended up with 7 or 8 thousand because I pick some up every time I swing in there. But most of the loads for my .204 ruger call for Remington, CCI, or Federal primers. I'd like to start some load development with the primers I have in stock. What's your take? __________________ --Duck911

January 26, 2008, 11:06 PM	#3
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	If I were loading at or near (or beyond-- ) a published max load and I had to change primer brands, ABSOLUTELY I'd reduce and work back up. But the reality is, I haven't yet found the need to build max loads in any caliber, so I've never found the need to be wary of my primers. I shoot for accuracy and function. When I find that, I don't up the load. And for darn sure--if I find a load recipe I like to try, I don't give a damn what primer they list as long as it's not a magnum primer, because I'm using what I have on hand. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

January 27, 2008, 01:05 AM	#6
TexasSeaRay Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 810	I first look at where the load publishing data is coming from. Ie, if it is coming from a powder manufacturer like Alliant, who also now owns CCI/Speer . . . . then I'll check the same calibre load out elsewhere and compare vitals. If it looks like there is no velocity or pressure difference between the CCI primer and the WSR primer, then I don't concern myself that much with "swapping brands of primer." And like Sevens, rare is the time that I ever load to the max--and never beyond. However, I copy, print, cut and tear, etc, various reloading articles out and put them in sheet protectors and then in loose leaf binders out in my reloading bench area. If I see a particular load configuration offered by someone not affiliated or representing a manufacturer and he calls for WSR primer with "x" amount of grains of "y" amount of powder and "z" size, weight and brand of bullet . . . if I like the desired results he's getting, then I'll initially stick with that configuration until I can see for myself how it's working out. THEN I might experiment with "swapping" primers. Jeff __________________ If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing.

January 27, 2008, 08:08 AM	#8
Dogjaw Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2001 Location: S.W. Michigan Posts: 560	I went from CCI to WSP. Saw the results on paper and went back to using CCI. There are differences in primers causing changes in accuracy, but I've never come accross a pressure issue in swapping. __________________ There are three kinds of men: 1) The ones that learn by reading. 2) The few who learn by observation. 3) The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves..........

January 26, 2008, 11:02 PM	#2
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	There can be issues with changing primers. Drop down to starting charge and work back up.

January 27, 2008, 12:47 AM	#4
saber9 Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2008 Location: West Texas Posts: 165	Sevens said it for me: While I pretty well standardized on CCI primers from the start (30+ years ago) for all my reloading, I never worried about using a different brand. This is strictly because I never load at the maximum level. IF for some reason I was and was changing brands, I would reduce the load at least 10% and test it before going on any further. I am conservative; I always want a safety cushion.

January 27, 2008, 01:01 AM	#5
Red_Eagle Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2007 Location: Western NY Posts: 598	I swap out Federal 210M for WLR and vice versa all the time when I'm working up a new load. BUT, before I decide what my start and my max is going to be I cross reference 3-5 different manuals. The only time I dont is when the data calls for a magnum primer, I usually use a regular large rifle primer.

January 27, 2008, 02:11 AM	#7
KD5NRH Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Location: Stephenville TX Posts: 176	I rarely pay any attention beyond standard or magnum, but then I start light and work my way up, watching for overpressure signs, and start over if I change primer brands if I'm close to max. I do use some max loads, and tend to check the max load for accuracy with rifle rounds; if it's hitting where I want it with no pressure issues, I'll load up ten or fifteen as junk animal rounds, (things like mangy coyotes or dogs chasing cattle - I'm not going to eat it, and don't want the pelt, but need to shoot it anyway - the more damage done, the quicker the buzzards will deal with it) and back off to the lightest accurate loads for plinking.

January 27, 2008, 02:11 PM	#9
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	in the lab I know of one 'handgun' primer that increased measured pressure by 5K; that is significant, ay? __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

January 28, 2008, 07:18 AM	#10
Martyn4802 Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2007 Location: Grayling, Michigan Posts: 737	As mentioned above, the ONLY way to keep from harm is to reduce powder charges and start from the minimum charge and work up when switching primers. Martyn __________________ US Army Retired NRA Benefactor Life Member JPFO

January 28, 2008, 01:31 PM	#12
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Swapping them can be a problem - but in general, I think its also generally accepted that Remington, Winchester and CCI small pistol primers are about the same. In most calibers you will find almost identical loads in a variety of books. I would not mix in Federal pistol primers - they are a lot softer - and for that reason alone, I just don't trust them in a press. The way I and some of my buddies deal with this issue is we pick up 50,000 primers at a time - and we share them - then we always have a stock. Personally, I've stayed with CCI primers for over 30 years - but if I had to switch I would go to Winchester or Remington. Not loading to the max is always a good idea - and I don't / but its good to check your loads once in a while - especially if you make any changes in components and be cautious.

January 28, 2008, 02:52 PM	#13
Dlr8 Member Join Date: December 6, 2007 Posts: 34	If you follow the golden rule ... start low and work up you will never have a problem with primers... if you don't follow the golden rule you are going to find problems everywhere including primers.. Sevens comment on MAX loads should be listed as golden rule no. 2 in my book .. I don't mess with them either. Dave

January 28, 2008, 05:17 PM	#14
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Speaking only for the .243 and .30-'06: I've been running max loads through for a long time. I've seen no difference in pressure signs, point of impact, whatever, whether I used Remington or Winchester primers. Mix 'em or match 'em, they've all been the same.

January 30, 2008, 12:13 AM	#15
duck911 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Posts: 256	Looks like the verdict is in! 37 voters said with 75.68% certainty that primers can be swapped *with caution*. Lots of good advise and I think it goes without saying that even though it seems accepted that "primers are primers," to start your load LOW and work up carefully, always looking for sigh of too much pressure. thanks everyone for the great feedback. -Duck911 __________________ --Duck911

January 30, 2008, 08:32 AM	#16
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	rubber baby bullets basement I use CCI500 under my rubber-bullet basement loads (and have holes in my shop door to prove it. IME rubber-bullet ammo should be treated EXACTLY the same as metallic-projectile ammo. But more ventilation if shot in the basement. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

January 30, 2008, 10:01 AM	#17
rcupka Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2006 Posts: 339	This is a good topic: I have a question? Winchester large pistol primers are labeled Standard and Magnum. I have used the same primers for .45 acp and 44 mag. However Sportsmans Warehouse was out of Winchesters and had only CCI this week. CCI has seperate primers for Standard and Magnum applications. Are they actually interchangeable or are Magnum primers really only for things like .500S&W, .460, etc...... I would think that the dual purpose primers from Winchester are a compomise for one of the rounds. rcupka

January 30, 2008, 09:58 PM	#18
First Shirt Member Join Date: August 22, 2007 Posts: 15	I will change between different brands of the same primer type (i.e. all Large Pistol Magnum primers, regardless of brand) but won't switch between Standard and Magnum in a given recipe. Found that a near-max load with standard primers was too hot when assembled over magnums. Also found that my favorite .45 Colt/H110 load did not play well with non-magnum primers.

January 31, 2008, 12:02 AM	#19
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	I recall an article in ST(?), it quoted the late great gunsmith Jim Clark as saying: " I use any old primer which comes along. I have never found any difference in primers." In my experience in handgun reloading some primers are harder than others.