Sabot stuck :o

JonnyReb · December 12, 2008, 09:23 PM

Can't believe i did it but i loaded a winchester Bullet/sabot combo into my 50 cal, TC scout, with no powder.

I tried the worm and the ramrod screw and never got any bite. I went through 5 charges of co2 with one of those blaster things. Nothing.

I'm wondering if one could take out the nipple and fill the cavity with however much fff it would take. Screw the nipple back in and give it a whirl. Anyone ever tried this or have any other solutions before i send it to the shop?

Thanks ya'll J.R.

kwhi43 · December 12, 2008, 09:45 PM

Did you try and push the bullet back down as far as you can before using the
CO2? If you did and couldn't blow it out, push it back down again and pull the
nipple and put some FFF in and put nipple in and cap and shoot it out. The
main thing is to be SURE and push the bullet back down after each try. Failure
to do this will result in a bulged barrel or worst , rupture of your barrel.

JonnyReb · December 12, 2008, 10:32 PM

So the FFF is a viable alternative? Wasnt sure if enough would fit in the cavity to make a difference. Glad to know its possible. I will make sure the sabot is seated and appreciate the post..J.R.

whosyrdaddy · December 13, 2008, 12:18 AM

Do you have the owners manual for your Scout? If so, look at page 59 and you will see a diagram showing how the breech diameter is reduced. This must be completely filled with powder. Your co2 dis charger did not work because the scout has exhaust ports in the nipple that let the co2 escape without building pressure.

JonnyReb · December 13, 2008, 07:45 AM

LOL funny... Yup theres two holes, one on either side...
Guess that would be why..

Pahoo · December 13, 2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

So the FFF is a viable alternative?

Absotively!! and would be my first move. I can't teach it but often do this and there is plenty of room. Remember that you are just trying to provide the ignition. As stated, Co2' won't work on this one because of the side ports.

Quote:

I tried the worm and the ramrod screw and never got any bite. I went through 5 charges of co2 with one of those blaster things. Nothing.

This method has never failed me but you have to get that good bite. In fact, I find that sabots are easier to pull than PRB's. Does your projectile have a hollow point or is it a solid point or balistic tip. These are harder to get a bite into. The last one I pulled was out of a Scout but again, it had a hollow point and was able to get a good bite into the lead. I start out by slamming the screw point into the nose and then counting nine quarter turns. That usually give me a good bite. Now, stuck ramrods are harder to pull that projectiles but that's another story. I have one of those CO2 Pushers and have not used it over ten years.

Be Safe !!!

JonnyReb · December 14, 2008, 12:35 PM

Thanks pahoo, the projectile is crosscut on the nose but of a hard chrome(alloy?)construction. I considered using an electricians 36" bit to drill a pilot hole in the tip, then try the worm again. As i don't want to purchase any fff if i don't have to, i'll try this first. I hate to say, but this happened about 5 years ago and i had just purchased a knight rifle. I put it up and forgot about it. My wife is interested in B.P. hunting next season and i thought i'd get it ready for her. Thanks for the reply..J.R.

Pahoo · December 14, 2008, 04:00 PM

J.R.
If you don't have any 3f, then see how much 2F you can get in there. I have crushed some 2F before, non BP replacement but would not try it on true BP as this stuff can provide many surprises. You rellay do not need much to get some ignition and move whatever is blocking your spark. I often refer to it as "MUD".

Be Safe !!!

shortwave · December 14, 2008, 09:12 PM

If exhaust ports are in the nipple it may pay you to get a spare nipple and weld(solder) vent holes shut. If this is possible it would be a handy tool to have to enable you to use compressed air for future charge removals. Carefull not to drill pilot hole all the way through bullet,if you do you`ll limit yourself to pulling bullet only. Goodluck!

rem870hunter · December 14, 2008, 10:36 PM

i google searched t/c scout.

it looks like its an inline ignition. is it possible to pull the nipple and breech plug(if their is one) and push the bullet/sabot out from the breech end of the barrel? if not and pulling it or putting powder in from the breech end are the only solutions. if you decide to drill. be very cary not to slip off the bullet. i hate to tell anyone this but.....

my father had a squib load of a .38 he fired in a .357 revolver. it was a 158 gr. wadcutter. well he tried pushing it out and that didn't work so he got the drill out

and tried to drill it into pieces small enough to push out. he couldn't get it out still. he took it to a shop and it was sent out to be fixed. supposedly while drilling he went off to the side after getting through the bullet and went into the barrel

. the barrel had to be replaced. the original was a 6" they had to put an 8 3/8" on it cause they didn't have any 6" barrels.

Pahoo · December 15, 2008, 11:21 AM

Quote:

it looks like its an inline ignition. is it possible to pull the nipple and breech plug(if their is one) and push the bullet/sabot out from the breech end of the barrel?

Rem,
You might have something here and wish I could remember what was there, the last time I worked on one of these. Could be wrong but I don't think it's a straight shot or a typical in-line. Do remember that the nipple and it's wrench were very different.

Hi shortwave
The vents exit on both sides of the frame and angle out from the chamber. Not sure of there advantage and not conventional.

Be Safe !!!

rem870hunter · December 15, 2008, 01:31 PM

not sure pahoo. i've never handled one of those rifles. i thought that by some chance i had a good suggestion. but after reading more and more of the replies to the original post. it must not be an inline type i thought it was.

with my traditions 209, i could very well do what i suggested. pull the nipple and the breech plug and push from the breech end of the barrel. i clean mine the same way. my ranger is a sidelock so no go on that idea.

arcticap · December 15, 2008, 02:39 PM

Here's a PDF manual for the TC Scout.

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals...tol_Manual.pdf

Page 11 shows that the barrel is completely removable and so is the unitary breech plug/nipple.

On page 39, the manual doesn't recommend that those who are inexperienced remove the breechplug, but I've seen the Scout replacement breech plugs and they're clearly made to simply unscrew.

So why pull out a projectile unnecessarily if it would be much easier to simply push it out?

Pahoo · December 15, 2008, 02:50 PM

arcticap, Strikes again and when all else fails, read the manual.

I do remember that the nipple has side deflector ports and is no where near a standard nipple. Thanks again, arcticap.

Be Safe !!!

rem870hunter · December 15, 2008, 02:59 PM

i downloaded and tried to open the file,arcticap. to see what you are talking about. my computer says it can't open it and its damaged or missing something. but if it can in fact be opened that way. its better than drilling,safer too.

2amencw · December 15, 2008, 04:22 PM

Had a similar experience with a flintlock and sidelock percussion. option one, if youcan remove the nipple put in some powder 3f or 4f (rsss) works best for this.When you think you have enough powder in replace nipple fully seat bullet and fire in safe direction. option two, put a few drops of light oil into the breech and swap the bore as well. use an air chuck with a rubber end or make one with rubber tubing. get a friend to help hold. max out your psi on the compressorand make a tight seal and let it rip. youmight have to stop and seat the bullet again this will help to oil the dry spot in the bore where the bullet was. worst case as long as there is no powder in it you can send it to TC, they are a good company and will take good care of you. Good luck

whosyrdaddy · December 16, 2008, 03:58 PM

Quote:

So why pull out a projectile unnecessarily if it would be much easier to simply push it out?

The bullet can't be pushed out even with the breech plug removed due to the peculiar barrel design of this gun. I couldn't begin to guess why T/C altered the illustration on page 59 for the PDF version, but here is what an original manual shows.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

Note the reduced diam. breech. Failure to completely fill this area with powder will effectively cause a short start situation.

This gun was not designed for use with pellets and they should not be used in this model.

arcticap · December 17, 2008, 02:49 PM

Thanks for the detailed diagram and for correcting me.
I'm not sure if the breech were only partially filled with powder that it would cause a risky short start situation though.
The barrel breech is extremely thick and strong, and the chance of causing a barrel bulge there with only a few gains of powder is very slim.
But who knows whether a few grains of powder could even be squeezed in or not?
Determining the actual size of the opening is the question. Could ground powder or ffffg be coaxed into that narrow opening?
If it could be squeezed in, then I think that it could be safely fired out.
TC would probably be willing to help if an attempt at pulling it out is unsuccessful.

JonnyReb · December 17, 2008, 08:44 PM

I'd missed this thread for a few day's...thanks SO much for all the great info. I'm digging her out of the safe tonight and am going to lean it against my comp desk, where after a week or two of false starts i'll give the whole issue my complete attention. Thanks again,,ya'll are the best...J.R.

whosyrdaddy · December 17, 2008, 08:45 PM

Arcticap, I was simply trying to answer the question you posed as quoted in my post. If it appeared as though I was correcting you, I sincerely apologize.

You may very well be correct about the danger of bulging being remote. I am not a physicist and my warnings were based on the fact that due to the radius at the bottom of the full bore portion of the barrel, the sabot would likely be seated above the thickened breech area. What limited understanding I have of the physics of a "short start" comes from this simplified explanation.

As for the opening size from the nipple end to the breech, it is slightly over 1/16". The taper for the nipple creates a funnel when the barrel is placed muzzle down and with the aid of a nipple pick, getting crushed powder into the breech should pose little problem.

JonnyReb · December 17, 2008, 08:58 PM

Yup, push it through with a nipple pick

Thank you again, great idea..

arcticap · December 18, 2008, 12:33 AM

I'm wondering if the breechplug has interior holes that need to be aligned with any holes on the exterior of the barrel when the breech plug is replaced?
Could that be the reason for the warning about removing the breech plug by those without experience?

JonnyReb · December 18, 2008, 12:38 AM

If i'm not mistaken there are multiple holes that "spray" the primer fire into the charge. There is no particular alignment that i'm aware of. Good thought though...J.R.

arcticap · December 18, 2008, 12:51 AM

Actually I was wondering about the vent holes in the barrel. Do they flow through the breech plug or bypass it?

whosyrdaddy · December 18, 2008, 12:00 PM

There are holes on both sides of the barrel that the breech plug holes line up with. These holes are considerably larger than the holes in the breech plug and are aligned with the vents in the receiver.

Alignment of these holes is virtually "fool proof" in that as long as the plug is tight, the holes are located correctly. I remove mine every time I clean it and T/C was more than happy to sell me a spare with no questions asked.

December 12, 2008, 09:23 PM	#1
JonnyReb Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2008 Location: Central N.C. Posts: 157	Sabot stuck :o Can't believe i did it but i loaded a winchester Bullet/sabot combo into my 50 cal, TC scout, with no powder. I tried the worm and the ramrod screw and never got any bite. I went through 5 charges of co2 with one of those blaster things. Nothing. I'm wondering if one could take out the nipple and fill the cavity with however much fff it would take. Screw the nipple back in and give it a whirl. Anyone ever tried this or have any other solutions before i send it to the shop? Thanks ya'll J.R.

December 12, 2008, 09:45 PM	#2
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	Push Down Did you try and push the bullet back down as far as you can before using the CO2? If you did and couldn't blow it out, push it back down again and pull the nipple and put some FFF in and put nipple in and cap and shoot it out. The main thing is to be SURE and push the bullet back down after each try. Failure to do this will result in a bulged barrel or worst , rupture of your barrel.

December 14, 2008, 09:12 PM	#9
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	If exhaust ports are in the nipple it may pay you to get a spare nipple and weld(solder) vent holes shut. If this is possible it would be a handy tool to have to enable you to use compressed air for future charge removals. Carefull not to drill pilot hole all the way through bullet,if you do you`ll limit yourself to pulling bullet only. Goodluck! Last edited by shortwave; December 14, 2008 at 09:20 PM.

December 14, 2008, 10:36 PM	#10
rem870hunter Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2007 Location: N.J. and trying to decide what state to move to. Posts: 973	i google searched t/c scout. it looks like its an inline ignition. is it possible to pull the nipple and breech plug(if their is one) and push the bullet/sabot out from the breech end of the barrel? if not and pulling it or putting powder in from the breech end are the only solutions. if you decide to drill. be very cary not to slip off the bullet. i hate to tell anyone this but..... my father had a squib load of a .38 he fired in a .357 revolver. it was a 158 gr. wadcutter. well he tried pushing it out and that didn't work so he got the drill out and tried to drill it into pieces small enough to push out. he couldn't get it out still. he took it to a shop and it was sent out to be fixed. supposedly while drilling he went off to the side after getting through the bullet and went into the barrel . the barrel had to be replaced. the original was a 6" they had to put an 8 3/8" on it cause they didn't have any 6" barrels. __________________ BEAR Bows,Remington shotguns,Marlin rifles Last edited by rem870hunter; December 14, 2008 at 10:37 PM. Reason: mispelling

December 15, 2008, 01:31 PM	#12
rem870hunter Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2007 Location: N.J. and trying to decide what state to move to. Posts: 973	not sure pahoo. i've never handled one of those rifles. i thought that by some chance i had a good suggestion. but after reading more and more of the replies to the original post. it must not be an inline type i thought it was. with my traditions 209, i could very well do what i suggested. pull the nipple and the breech plug and push from the breech end of the barrel. i clean mine the same way. my ranger is a sidelock so no go on that idea. __________________ BEAR Bows,Remington shotguns,Marlin rifles

December 12, 2008, 10:32 PM	#3
JonnyReb Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2008 Location: Central N.C. Posts: 157	So the FFF is a viable alternative? Wasnt sure if enough would fit in the cavity to make a difference. Glad to know its possible. I will make sure the sabot is seated and appreciate the post..J.R.

December 13, 2008, 12:18 AM	#4
whosyrdaddy Junior member Join Date: February 14, 2008 Posts: 28	Do you have the owners manual for your Scout? If so, look at page 59 and you will see a diagram showing how the breech diameter is reduced. This must be completely filled with powder. Your co2 dis charger did not work because the scout has exhaust ports in the nipple that let the co2 escape without building pressure.

December 13, 2008, 07:45 AM	#5
JonnyReb Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2008 Location: Central N.C. Posts: 157	LOL funny... Yup theres two holes, one on either side... Guess that would be why..

December 14, 2008, 12:35 PM	#7
JonnyReb Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2008 Location: Central N.C. Posts: 157	Thanks pahoo, the projectile is crosscut on the nose but of a hard chrome(alloy?)construction. I considered using an electricians 36" bit to drill a pilot hole in the tip, then try the worm again. As i don't want to purchase any fff if i don't have to, i'll try this first. I hate to say, but this happened about 5 years ago and i had just purchased a knight rifle. I put it up and forgot about it. My wife is interested in B.P. hunting next season and i thought i'd get it ready for her. Thanks for the reply..J.R.

December 14, 2008, 04:00 PM	#8
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	J.R. If you don't have any 3f, then see how much 2F you can get in there. I have crushed some 2F before, non BP replacement but would not try it on true BP as this stuff can provide many surprises. You rellay do not need much to get some ignition and move whatever is blocking your spark. I often refer to it as "MUD". Be Safe !!!

December 15, 2008, 02:39 PM	#13
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Here's a PDF manual for the TC Scout. http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals...tol_Manual.pdf Page 11 shows that the barrel is completely removable and so is the unitary breech plug/nipple. On page 39, the manual doesn't recommend that those who are inexperienced remove the breechplug, but I've seen the Scout replacement breech plugs and they're clearly made to simply unscrew. So why pull out a projectile unnecessarily if it would be much easier to simply push it out? Last edited by arcticap; December 15, 2008 at 02:51 PM.

December 15, 2008, 02:50 PM	#14
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	arcticap, Strikes again and when all else fails, read the manual. I do remember that the nipple has side deflector ports and is no where near a standard nipple. Thanks again, arcticap. Be Safe !!!

December 15, 2008, 02:59 PM	#15
rem870hunter Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2007 Location: N.J. and trying to decide what state to move to. Posts: 973	i downloaded and tried to open the file,arcticap. to see what you are talking about. my computer says it can't open it and its damaged or missing something. but if it can in fact be opened that way. its better than drilling,safer too. __________________ BEAR Bows,Remington shotguns,Marlin rifles

December 15, 2008, 04:22 PM	#16
2amencw Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2008 Posts: 143	stuck sabot Had a similar experience with a flintlock and sidelock percussion. option one, if youcan remove the nipple put in some powder 3f or 4f (rsss) works best for this.When you think you have enough powder in replace nipple fully seat bullet and fire in safe direction. option two, put a few drops of light oil into the breech and swap the bore as well. use an air chuck with a rubber end or make one with rubber tubing. get a friend to help hold. max out your psi on the compressorand make a tight seal and let it rip. youmight have to stop and seat the bullet again this will help to oil the dry spot in the bore where the bullet was. worst case as long as there is no powder in it you can send it to TC, they are a good company and will take good care of you. Good luck

December 17, 2008, 02:49 PM	#18
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Thanks for the detailed diagram and for correcting me. I'm not sure if the breech were only partially filled with powder that it would cause a risky short start situation though. The barrel breech is extremely thick and strong, and the chance of causing a barrel bulge there with only a few gains of powder is very slim. But who knows whether a few grains of powder could even be squeezed in or not? Determining the actual size of the opening is the question. Could ground powder or ffffg be coaxed into that narrow opening? If it could be squeezed in, then I think that it could be safely fired out. TC would probably be willing to help if an attempt at pulling it out is unsuccessful.

December 17, 2008, 08:44 PM	#19
JonnyReb Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2008 Location: Central N.C. Posts: 157	I'd missed this thread for a few day's...thanks SO much for all the great info. I'm digging her out of the safe tonight and am going to lean it against my comp desk, where after a week or two of false starts i'll give the whole issue my complete attention. Thanks again,,ya'll are the best...J.R.

December 17, 2008, 08:45 PM	#20
whosyrdaddy Junior member Join Date: February 14, 2008 Posts: 28	Arcticap, I was simply trying to answer the question you posed as quoted in my post. If it appeared as though I was correcting you, I sincerely apologize. You may very well be correct about the danger of bulging being remote. I am not a physicist and my warnings were based on the fact that due to the radius at the bottom of the full bore portion of the barrel, the sabot would likely be seated above the thickened breech area. What limited understanding I have of the physics of a "short start" comes from this simplified explanation. As for the opening size from the nipple end to the breech, it is slightly over 1/16". The taper for the nipple creates a funnel when the barrel is placed muzzle down and with the aid of a nipple pick, getting crushed powder into the breech should pose little problem.

December 17, 2008, 08:58 PM	#21
JonnyReb Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2008 Location: Central N.C. Posts: 157	Yup, push it through with a nipple pick Thank you again, great idea..

December 18, 2008, 12:33 AM	#22
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	I'm wondering if the breechplug has interior holes that need to be aligned with any holes on the exterior of the barrel when the breech plug is replaced? Could that be the reason for the warning about removing the breech plug by those without experience?

December 18, 2008, 12:38 AM	#23
JonnyReb Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2008 Location: Central N.C. Posts: 157	If i'm not mistaken there are multiple holes that "spray" the primer fire into the charge. There is no particular alignment that i'm aware of. Good thought though...J.R.

December 18, 2008, 12:51 AM	#24
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Actually I was wondering about the vent holes in the barrel. Do they flow through the breech plug or bypass it?

December 18, 2008, 12:00 PM	#25
whosyrdaddy Junior member Join Date: February 14, 2008 Posts: 28	There are holes on both sides of the barrel that the breech plug holes line up with. These holes are considerably larger than the holes in the breech plug and are aligned with the vents in the receiver. Alignment of these holes is virtually "fool proof" in that as long as the plug is tight, the holes are located correctly. I remove mine every time I clean it and T/C was more than happy to sell me a spare with no questions asked.