Whats the proper way to take a loaded gun from someone?

[carebear]

The Marines have dropped LINE (linear infighting neural engagement) in favor of a new system, haven't gotten the package yet, some people I respect (serious martial artists on their own time) say the new system is much more realistic and useful. The Commandant is committed to ensuring time is alotted for Marines to stay current in it.

I saw a buddy of mine whup up on a guy who outweighed him by about 50 pounds using LINE, but he was a scrapper just out of SOI and the other guy was blotto so I'm not sure if it proves anything. "sweep and stomp" do make a mess though...

[madgrad]

If you want the Best Gun take away techniques without the B.S. go to your local Krav Maga school, ask for a demo or www.kravmaga.com and order thier tapes.

The gun techniques are the best I've seen and the simplest to learn.


Just keep in mind that they don't make you a Superman, and if somebody pulls a gun on you, and if you can't run give them your wallet, and anything else they want.

If they want to lead you away somewhere, that's a different story, it means they want more than your valubles, they want your life.

Then by all means do a take away it's better to die trying, than by doing nothing at all.

Just doing my part.

P.S. I hope the website works for you this time Soda Pop.

[madgrad]

Most of the techniques I've seen from the U.S. Army and U.S.M.C manuals, and was trained with when I was in the service (88-92) was: Advanced Throws, Arm Breaks, Chokes, Strikes and Knife Techniques modified,and taken from Dan Zan Ryu Ju Jitsu's advanced and blackbelt list by Professor Henry Sieshiro Okizowa (deceased) [spelling is probally wrong] founder of the Art. This system has been used since WWII with our Armed forces.

If you watch tapes of the Rangers,SF,SEALS, Marines,as well as Recruits in Boot camp training in Hand to Hand combat. Then watch at least three different Dan Zan Ryu Ju Jitsu Classes you'll see the direct linage to the art.

I had an aquaintance return from U.S.M.C Boot Camp about 6 months ago, who is Familiar with Ju Jitsu. I asked about the Cirriculum for Hand to Hand, he said " it's just a watered down, simplified version, of the Blackbelt list, so you can teach someone with no experiance easier,and quickly. Honestly it put me to sleep because it went to slow for my taste"

I hope this clears thing up a bit.

[M1911]

I've taken a couple handgun retention / disarm classes. In both of them, the instructors said that doing a disarm is one step short of suicide. The gun will likely go off. You may well get shot.

As others have said, you MUST be close. If he's 10 feet away, you're not going to do a disarm.

There are many different methods. But the main thing they have in common is that they're awfully hard to describe with just the written word and no pictures of video.

Take a class, then practice and hope that you never actually have to do it for real.
M1911

[Samurai]

Not to seem the trifling type, but in dealing with the whole "attacker in an airplane" thing, what happens when a stray shot punctures the cabin? In this case, everyone loses consciousness, due to severe depressurization, right? In the worst case, the skin fails, a large hole opens up, and several passengers get sucked out of the plane, right? How would this play into the disarming techniques?

[Tamara]

In this case, everyone loses consciousness, due to severe depressurization, right?

Only in the movies.

The pumps on a commercial airliner can keep ahead of more bullet holes than most pistols have rounds in the magazine.

The only real dangers on the plane are the chances of an innocent stopping that stray bullet, and the (thankfully remote) chance of the round striking a control line or component.

[trapshooter]

Thank you, Tamara. This myth keeps popping up. Thanks to the no-loads in Hollywierd.

You know, thinking about this hypothetical, and in that context, I might be finding a servicable sap-type weapon, and then relieve the unconcious BG of his weapon after he's out (or on his way to the deck). Speed and surprise are still needed. Check to see if weapon is cocked, etc. Multiple BG's and stealth accomplices would be an issue. Just an option to think about.

[C.R.Sam]

As usual....Tamara right.

Normal leakage in modern transport aircraft is such that no pressurization difference would be noted with a few shotgun slug holes. Remember, the air is being changed often, the stale air being vented overboard.

Commercial transport aircraft are built with redundancy of electrical, hydraulic and other systems so that a stray bullet hittin a wire or line would cause little concern.

Sam....ATP

[shy_man]

The above question reminds me when I almost had an exchange of shot to a paramilitary man. When that goblin point at me his M16 at close range (3 meters away)I notice myself that I dock like a boxer or evading the muzle. I figure to get very close to him and grab the M16 and use my karate or arnis disarming technique but that incident was pacified by other armed men, not to go in details anymore.

In my Martial Arts studies, they taught us how to disarm a pistol when poked in any parts of the body especially at the back or front. But I think the best defense is the best reaction you can do which the brain dictates you to do for defense, as the body parts reacts when in danger through the motor nerves via the brain.

We hope that if ever happened to us this situation we can apply something that saves our breath.

Thanks

[zot]

I read all posts and it seems that the BG is 3 feet away from you.
WHAT if the BG is 15 feet away?has gun cocked and aimed at your guts?BUT if he is so close to knock his aim off your guts I would fingers into his throat as hard as possible and put a thumb in his eye as far as possible, then unload his gun and beat the SOB to near death, wipe prints and go home.

[Art Eatman]

zot, six feet or less and the odds are in your favor. Eight or nine feet or more, the odds shift to the guy with the gun. "Your" distance depends on how much space you can cover before he shifts aim and gets the second shot off.

There're no guarantees...

Art

[jcoiii]

This may seem a bit silly to point out, but I doubt an attacker is going to stand there as I try and move in to take his weapon. Granted, most BGs are morons. But it doesn't take much intelligence to actually pull the trigger. I have a somewhat limited martial arts background, but even in hand to hand with no weapon, you are definitely going to take some hits. I imagine even the dumbest BG is not going to only try and hang on to the gun but also be doing anything he can to injure/subdue me. Now, obviously, if you are going to be shot anyway, what do you have to lose, but you'd better be really sure that you can keep that gun away from you from beginning to end. Just a thought from a newbie.


j.c.

[Tamara]

This whole thing is based on the principal of "action beats reaction".

Disarms, "The Tueller Drill", and the fact that under certain circumstances you can out-draw a drawn gun all work off this concept.

[Jamie Young]

Question:

Say a Taliban Terrorist has a GP100 .357 with a 6inch barrel
If I grabbed hold of the barrel with My right hand to push it away from me and the gun went off.........

How much pain would it cause by holding onto the Barrel?

I've never tried it and don't plan on trying it out but is this a fairly safe part of a Revolver to hold onto?

I wouldn't want My hands near the Cylinder and If it was a Revolver, I would probable hold onto the gun, and force the BG to fire off all the rounds.

[LawDog]

If you've got no choice but to grab the revolver, then gorilla-grip the cylinder.

Johnny Taliban is gonna be squeezing the trigger with one li'l ol' nostril hook. Me, I'm gonna be gronking down on the cylinder with all four fingers and a thumb. If not both hands.

While slamming a knee or three into his anatomy.

His index finger isn't going to rotate the cylinder against the grip of one or both of my hands.

Cylinder no turnee = 'Dog no shotee.

This is Good.

LawDog

[Skorzeny]

SodaPop:

"How much pain would it cause by holding onto the Barrel?"

A WHOLE LOT LESS than taking one in the chest. Don't get me wrong - ideally, the best would be to not suffer any pain or injury, but often the choice is between two different levels of evil.

Skorzeny

[nbk2000]

If one is wearing a vest that can stop the threat, might it not be more expedient to pull the gun into the vest, where it's already pointed, rather than taking the extra few moments of pushing it to the side?

First shot is stopped, perhaps slide locked open from the pressure of the vest. Proceed to inflict damage.

Just a thought for an extremely close range (think phone booth range) encounter.

Naturally you'd want to avoid it if possible, but I don't think an attacker would be expecting you to PULL the gun into your own chest. The moment of confusion may help.

[Jamie Young]

If you took a .357 to the chest at point blank You probable could still sustain Serious Injuries.

[Art Eatman]

NBK, you're working up some really rare "last resort" notions, there. If you have time to pull forward on the BG's gun, you have time to do lots of other, more effective things.

Think for a moment: If a guy's gun is (roughly) centered on your chest, just turning your body with a slight lean takes you out of the line of fire of his first shot. And that's just a part of the "Clear the body" thing, not all.

Also, this stuff is practically simultaneous, not sequential. As you're clearing your body of his first--and probably inevitable--shot, at about that same instant you're grabbing the body of his gun. You just flat-out don't care about some piddly-diddly little flash of pain from a revolver's side-gases .

At the same time as you're grabbing and bending and trying to break his trigger-finger, your knee should already have put at least one strike into his crotch.

You're not there to dance; you're out to Ruin His Day. "Hair, teeth and eyeballs", as hard and fast as you possibly can.

Your emotions should be controlled, but definitely into a state of rage: "How DARE this pice of thrash be so rude!" You've been insulted, threatened. USE that adrnalin!

, Art

[bsmart]

The best way to take a loaded gun from someone?
With a 223 round to the brain stem of course!
No Sodapop, there are a lot of variables as to how to disarm someone with a loaded handgun. That's the question you have I take it?
What do you do in a situation where the person with a gun is in a crowded area and the risk of injury to innocent bystanders is great? What do you do when the person you want to disarm is drugged up and high as a kite and being very paranoid? As you can appreciate Sodapop, there are many scenarios and some are favourable, some aren't. The most commonly accepted advise is to stay still and let the gunman take whatever they want from you. Don't be a threat to them, otherwise they might just shoot you dead! If it's a situation where it looks like they are gonna shoot you anyway, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. That's when you can try disarming an assailant.
Use distraction or get his attention elsewhere momentarily, making sure you are within grabbing distance of his wrist. When he is distracted, grab his wrist with both of your hands and twist left or right, pulling them towards you and making sure the gun is pointed past your left or right side, depending if you are left of right handed. If you are right handed, twist left bringing the gun past your left hand side, then use your right elbow to their throat as fast as you can. This will disable them, giving them something else to think about, and make them let go of the weapon. You grab the weapon and keep them covered. They might have a crushed larynx, but it's either you or them.
This is not the sort of move an amateur would do. It takes lots of practice and constant training to use this method. Disarming an armed assailant is extremely dangerous and the only safe way to do it is from a distance with a sniper rifle!
Johnno

[trapshooter]

On this statement:

If you took a .357 to the chest at point blank You probable could still sustain Serious Injuries.

This is incorrect. Periodically, the traumatic shock thing comes up. With a handgun, and assuming the vest is rated for that round (or successfully stops the round), what you get is a bruise that has been described as no worse than a bee sting.

Don't go away, it gets better. The guy who started Second Chance, (ex-Detroit PD, shot 3 times w/o protection, got tired of it. His first name is Richard, don't recall LN at the moment) had a problem convincing prospective buyers that his vests would work.

He would fire rounds from various handguns into vests laying on the ground, but there was always someone in the back whining about the differences between dirt and flesh, and the impact trauma of the devastating 158grn RN. .38 round.

So he decides to test his vests. Being a stud, he doesn't wuss out and ask for volunteers. He fires up the camera (this is the pre-video days, used a super-8 or something), straps on one rated for the .357 mag. Stokes up a four inch .357 with full-power loads. Sets up three bowling pins on table in background.
Kneels on ground. Thumbs off a round into own chest AT CONTACT RANGE, jumps up, shoots down the bowling pins with the .357. So much for the trauma thing. Also, the birth of the 'Bowling Pin Match'.

Folks, I saw this film. It's real, he really did it. He's repeated the shooting part many times, for cops who accused him of faking the film. Second Chance used the film as a sales tool. Pretty g-d effective, too. Also, SC used to have a prize for anyone who got capped wearing one of thier vests, and returned fire dispensing with said BG in .25 cent court. A new .357 mag. Don't know if they still do this. They had another (re-enactment) film of various cops who had won thier .357 mag. One guy took MULTIPLE contact shots from a .45 auto.

Now, I would be reticent to try some s--t like this with a .454 Casull, rifle rounds, or a D.U. round from a Bushmaster. You might be able to make a vest that would stop the Casull, and some rifle rounds (not AP), but I wouldn't want to wear one on a daily basis. New materials have been developed over the last few years have only increased the effectiveness of vests of a given thickness.

Let me close with this. I believe that if the vest stops the round in question, you will not be disabled to the point of inhibiting action in this or any other respect. There is undoubtedly an upper limit in power where this is not true, and I don't know what it is. But it is beyond that acheived by the .45 ACP or the .357 Mag., I absolutely state as fact ( unless you are a major-league wuss, of course). BTW, there ARE some female .357 freebie carriers out there, in case anyone was wondering).

[C.R.Sam]

Sometimes.
Hands in air in surrender posture, Mentally comitt. Hand comes down on top of gun, grasping gun firmly. Rotate gun upwards vigorously. Jerk straight down on gun. Simultanious action, not sequential. Time = 0.4 sec or less.

By the time the gun is rotated upwards, the trigger gets pulled. Bad guy likely shoots self in head. Stripping gun downwards removes it from his grasp and likely removing his trigger finger. He doesn't care if gun fired. If gun not fired, you now have gun and can proceed furthur at leisure.

Both parties will have junk in eyes and hearing damage. One party will live.

Worked once as advertised.

Finger bit is why don't practice with dummy gun that has trigger guard. Instructors get testy when you break their fingers. If you do the takeaway right, finger WILL be damaged.

Only when you feel you must....or die.

Sam

Sam

[shy_man]

To those who think of sustaining heat or burn, great blast when grabbing a gun barrel. Isn't it that you have training in the military or police or if you are a civilian, are you not trained in martial arts well in hardening your fist and other rigid test to your physical endurance? Joining only in a college fraternity then you have already tested with too much hazing or pain. What I mean is, a real fighter or someone who has training in self defense won't think the mentioned pains but instead we must avoid a surgical wound from an attacker.

I think any encounter be it consummated or not, we don't think anymore the other negative aspects but we think to survive on that moment.

Usually the tendency when there is confrontation is to grab the weapon perhaps after evading once, it is a simultaneous reactions.

[striderteen]

A Class III vest will stop up to a 7.62x51mm AP round; a Class IV, up to a .30-06 AP. Do I want to try that? No. The rifle STILL has enough kinetic energy to approximate a fastball, and I've already been hit by one of those.