Pro/Anti-Gun Debate Forum

Jeff Thomas · February 7, 1999, 12:28 PM

Rich et al - I'm sure you don't have enough to keep you busy (

), but a number of us have been very interested in Mort's 'My dialogue with Bob Musil' thread over in Legal and Political. While I would be very disappointed to see 'anti-gunners' regularly posting throughout TFL, it would be interesting to have a forum dedicated to this lively debate.

I tend to think we would win more than our share of battles, and I am just optimistic enough to believe that people such as Dr. Musil might be persuaded to at least tone down their rhetoric by removing outright lies and distortions from their arguments.

Surely there are plenty of 'anti-gun nuts' (

), but I wonder how you would feel about giving this a 'shot'? Thank you.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited 02-07-99).]

longhair · February 7, 1999, 06:06 PM

i'm sure their are members of the anti-gun persuasion already lurking out there just to see what's being said in here. might as well tell'um to come in, and we'll see what happens. just a thought!

------------------
fiat justitia

DC · February 7, 1999, 10:37 PM

I'm up for it!

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

HS · February 8, 1999, 04:42 AM

" Shall...we...play...the...game ?"

------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"

**Rich Lucibella** · February 8, 1999, 10:41 AM

I've already indicated our willingness to establish such a Forum. I would hope that we'd find that most anti-gunners will have more in common than in opposition with most gun owners....and vice versa.

As long as the media keeps them believing that we're all Aryan Nations types and us believing that they're all Sara Brady sycophants, the only outcome is the inevitable march toward govt. control of all private matters.

Bring 'em on. They're welcome here. I have little doubt that TFL members can engage these issues in a non-confrontational manner.

Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 02-08-99).]

Mort · February 8, 1999, 01:15 PM

Yes, I'm looking forward to such a thing. TFL is one of the greatest repositories of gun knowledge on the Internet, and all we need on our side is the facts. Rich, it might be awhile before I get another message from Dr. Musil, but when he does, I'll extend your invitation (if you still want me to).

DC · February 8, 1999, 02:31 PM

Mort...
Rich wants you to; we all want you to....its a go, send the invite

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

Mort · February 9, 1999, 01:16 AM

Sent.

Jeff Thomas · February 10, 1999, 02:45 AM

Not wanting to be paranoid, but after reading a recent post in Legal and Political I have thought a bit more about inviting anti-self defense folks to TFL. I hope that the software and our moderators would be prepared to prevent excessive postings by those who do not reasonably share our interest in firearms. TFL is a tremendous resource, and the camaraderie here is rare - just a little nervous about seeing it torpedoed in any way. Thanks.

Mort · February 10, 1999, 03:09 AM

I worried about that, and posted my concern in the Musil thread, but I have a feeling that the pro-tyranny lobby will stay out of the other forums. I see little there that would interest them. Consider, also, the alternative; they might actually learn something about guns! This would be a real turning point.

DC · February 10, 1999, 08:27 AM

Jeff, Mort...
I used to debate on the CNN and NY Times Gun Control forums. It got hairy at times but there was a cyclic frequency to it:
For the most part the forums' regulars tended to be pro self-defense/guns and only when an "incident" occurred and was reported by the media did rabid anti's show up. They weren't interested in debating rationally and intelligently, they merely wished to spew vitriol. After awhile, they would leave. What was extremely disheartening was the selective and onesided censorship performed by the staff of the forums. Anti-gun venom and insults were allowed to stand and whereas many well reasoned pro-gun responses and arguements were edited to meaninglessness and or out right deleted.
It was also interesting to discover that (for CNN) the staff were unpaid volunteers who had been recruited from the boards. The head staffer and chief "moderator" of the gun control board was an admitted Liberal Demo San Francisco housewife.

My point: the flavor, expertise and knowledge of TFL members will discourage most of those that wish to merely spew. There may be an occassional hit and run, but for the most part only those anti's that wish to sincerely debate and/or gather intelligence info will participate.

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

Jeff Thomas · February 10, 1999, 09:25 PM

OK, DC. I'll buy that. Besides, where else but TFL would you find such a great group of people to watch your '6'?

Ed Brunner · February 11, 1999, 08:07 AM

Why would we want them?
Is it for our entertainment or do we really hope to convert them?
Will THEY be edited? Will WE be edited?
I know that open discoures promotes understanding.I think that I understand THEM already.
It might be a venue for THEM to understand US,a very noble idea indeed.
If we could convert just one...
Lets try it!

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed

Hiker · February 11, 1999, 09:34 AM

It scares me a bit having the anti-gun crowd possibly diluting this good natured, informative forum. But it would offer a needed dialogue to show them, the anti-gun crowd, that we have common ground with them and maybe we could educate them on what our founding fathers thought was important and why.

Hiker

Mort · February 11, 1999, 02:09 PM

Right, and any post they made in, say, the Handguns forum would be certain to be good for a laugh.

Rob Pincus · February 11, 1999, 11:46 PM

I've gotta think that "looking" for a confrontation can only be bad news.

First of all, if I be-bop on into a liberal, socialist, gun control forum I'm not going to be polite for very long at all. Especially when I am jumped by 250 pro-gov't fanatics.
(look at all the trouble was caused by my semi-jesting post at rec.gardens about Y2k Tactical Gardening...)

Secondly, by inviting such a confrontation, we limit ourselves in our ability reprimand, delete, close threads and remove members without the offender's crying "Foul!"

Rich has made it very clear that opposing opinions are welcome, when introduced in a civil manner. Under the current system, Sarah Brady herself could show up in Legal/political and explain that she is with the government and she is here to help and hopefully we would all behave ourselves and have an intelligent discourse. To go out an solicit or advertise that we have opened an Arena would only encourage their most embittered and aggressive gladiators to show up ready for a fight.

Anyone looking for a real discussion should be able to see that we at TFL are not the type to condemn or shy away from a reasonable discussion of any topic. What's more, we have proven in the past that we are all much more likely to apologize for even simple misunderstandings than we are to gang-stomp anyone into submission. If we remain a mature, reasonable group, open minded people with opposing view points will certainly feel comfortable engaging us in anti-gun or neutral threads.

------------------
-Essayons

Jeff Thomas · February 11, 1999, 11:55 PM

That's right! We'll make them feel very comfortable ... show them we're mature, reasonable, and open-minded ... that we are simply engaging in the free and civil discourse of opposing, but respected viewpoints.

Then we gang-stomp 'em, right?

sorry - just couldn't help it ...

Mort · February 12, 1999, 01:17 AM

Rob, where *are* these "liberal, socialist, gun control" forums? I feel the old twitch in my Evangelical Cortex...

Rob Pincus · February 12, 1999, 04:06 AM

Well, unfortunatley for me on those days that I just need to put out a good stompin, there is no Rec.Liberal.Sheeple

Furthermore, I'm not going to put out a hit-list on TFL of fun places to troll and feel good about yourself. (Email me

)

Use your imagination, the testing grounds for your theories of conversion are out there. remember, they are tougher than you think. The anonymity of the keyboard empowers many of the sheeple! Leave your swinging watch at home and bring your Obi-Wan style powers of suggestion. If that doesn't work and you get put on the defensive.. let them strike the first blow, then hammer their sensitivities until they cry for a moderator to ban you and your brutal logicalness.

------------------
-Essayons

DC · February 12, 1999, 11:41 AM

I would caution you all to behave in the newsgroups.
Even if you put a phoney handle and e-mail addy, the header of your post shows your server. I've found that some of the rabid sheeple think there is nothing at all wrong about sending a false letter of complaint to your server accusing you of all sorts of things. Some servers will accept these complaints blindly and just cancel you without question. Smaller servers may listen to you and go thru the logs to see if you indeed did wrong.
Regardless, it will be a hassle. These same people are the ones who used to tattle on the schoolyards.

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

Mort · February 12, 1999, 03:47 PM

You would be amazed, DC, at how you can use civility as camouflage anywhere you go. Since sheeple think that they're the only rational people in the world, anyone who behaves rationally and doesn't just post "GLOCK 4EVR AND DEF LEPPARD ROX MOTHER@$*&!%" might actually get listened to.

KAM_Indianapolis · February 16, 1999, 10:02 PM

I found the 'dialogue with Bob Musil' thread quite interesting. It was nice to see such reasoned debate about an often emotional topic.

When ever you get fanatics in the same room you can predict not only the outcome (a verbal brawl) but what everyone will say (just read the websites of the diametrically opposed sides).

However, when you put reasonable people in the same room there is no telling what may happen. People will actually discuss the issues, debating with facts and not emotional slogans. The outcome usually shocks no one, but contains a few nuggets of wisdom from both sides and maybe a few new interesting ideas.

Would I welcome such an exchange, most definetely. Having just recently joined this forum I can say that I wouldn't want to see this forum brought down to the level of the first scenario above. So I would offer the forum heading, not neccesarily advertise it but mention it to people who are anti-gun, who you think are reasonable. Put a big disclaimer when you register at this site. And make sure people know to post threads in the appropriate forums.

If it get's out of hand kill the topic. Deal with individuals on an individual basis.

Peace...
Keith

Mort · February 17, 1999, 12:47 AM

Well. You can all see from my latest post to the Musil thread that Dr. Musil has respectfully declined the position of moderator. I figured as much, he is busy. Any other suggestions for moderator? And how should we get the message out?

**Rich Lucibella** · February 17, 1999, 08:45 AM

Mort-
Speaking as Member (not owner), I think we should let it go. The risks to our site are great enough when we invite someone in who has already demonstrated a willingness to be civil. If we go out "looking" for a group to represent the other side, we may be inviting a simple troll war.

In this case, however, I'm more than willing to leave the decision to popular opininion.
Rich

Jeff Thomas · February 18, 1999, 12:34 AM

Well, if we're looking for a pro-gun moderator, and a troll war, how about Sarah Brady? She's a troll in my book!

February 7, 1999, 12:28 PM	#1
Jeff Thomas Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 4,753	Rich et al - I'm sure you don't have enough to keep you busy ( ), but a number of us have been very interested in Mort's 'My dialogue with Bob Musil' thread over in Legal and Political. While I would be very disappointed to see 'anti-gunners' regularly posting throughout TFL, it would be interesting to have a forum dedicated to this lively debate. I tend to think we would win more than our share of battles, and I am just optimistic enough to believe that people such as Dr. Musil might be persuaded to at least tone down their rhetoric by removing outright lies and distortions from their arguments. Surely there are plenty of 'anti-gun nuts' ( ), but I wonder how you would feel about giving this a 'shot'? Thank you. [This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited 02-07-99).]

February 7, 1999, 06:06 PM	#2
longhair Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 1998 Location: CSA Posts: 632	i'm sure their are members of the anti-gun persuasion already lurking out there just to see what's being said in here. might as well tell'um to come in, and we'll see what happens. just a thought! ------------------ fiat justitia

February 7, 1999, 10:37 PM	#3
DC Moderator Emeritus Join Date: September 30, 1998 Location: Calif Posts: 4,229	I'm up for it! ------------------ "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

February 8, 1999, 04:42 AM	#4
HS Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Brisbane.....Australia Posts: 1,258	" Shall...we...play...the...game ?" ------------------ "The Gun from Down Under !"

February 8, 1999, 10:41 AM	#5
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	I've already indicated our willingness to establish such a Forum. I would hope that we'd find that most anti-gunners will have more in common than in opposition with most gun owners....and vice versa. As long as the media keeps them believing that we're all Aryan Nations types and us believing that they're all Sara Brady sycophants, the only outcome is the inevitable march toward govt. control of all private matters. Bring 'em on. They're welcome here. I have little doubt that TFL members can engage these issues in a non-confrontational manner. Rich [This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 02-08-99).]

February 8, 1999, 01:15 PM	#6
Mort Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 1998 Posts: 479	Yes, I'm looking forward to such a thing. TFL is one of the greatest repositories of gun knowledge on the Internet, and all we need on our side is the facts. Rich, it might be awhile before I get another message from Dr. Musil, but when he does, I'll extend your invitation (if you still want me to).

February 8, 1999, 02:31 PM	#7
DC Moderator Emeritus Join Date: September 30, 1998 Location: Calif Posts: 4,229	Mort... Rich wants you to; we all want you to....its a go, send the invite ------------------ "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

February 9, 1999, 01:16 AM	#8
Mort Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 1998 Posts: 479	Sent.

February 10, 1999, 02:45 AM	#9
Jeff Thomas Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 4,753	Not wanting to be paranoid, but after reading a recent post in Legal and Political I have thought a bit more about inviting anti-self defense folks to TFL. I hope that the software and our moderators would be prepared to prevent excessive postings by those who do not reasonably share our interest in firearms. TFL is a tremendous resource, and the camaraderie here is rare - just a little nervous about seeing it torpedoed in any way. Thanks.

February 10, 1999, 03:09 AM	#10
Mort Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 1998 Posts: 479	I worried about that, and posted my concern in the Musil thread, but I have a feeling that the pro-tyranny lobby will stay out of the other forums. I see little there that would interest them. Consider, also, the alternative; they might actually learn something about guns! This would be a real turning point.

February 10, 1999, 08:27 AM	#11
DC Moderator Emeritus Join Date: September 30, 1998 Location: Calif Posts: 4,229	Jeff, Mort... I used to debate on the CNN and NY Times Gun Control forums. It got hairy at times but there was a cyclic frequency to it: For the most part the forums' regulars tended to be pro self-defense/guns and only when an "incident" occurred and was reported by the media did rabid anti's show up. They weren't interested in debating rationally and intelligently, they merely wished to spew vitriol. After awhile, they would leave. What was extremely disheartening was the selective and onesided censorship performed by the staff of the forums. Anti-gun venom and insults were allowed to stand and whereas many well reasoned pro-gun responses and arguements were edited to meaninglessness and or out right deleted. It was also interesting to discover that (for CNN) the staff were unpaid volunteers who had been recruited from the boards. The head staffer and chief "moderator" of the gun control board was an admitted Liberal Demo San Francisco housewife. My point: the flavor, expertise and knowledge of TFL members will discourage most of those that wish to merely spew. There may be an occassional hit and run, but for the most part only those anti's that wish to sincerely debate and/or gather intelligence info will participate. ------------------ "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

February 10, 1999, 09:25 PM	#12
Jeff Thomas Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 4,753	OK, DC. I'll buy that. Besides, where else but TFL would you find such a great group of people to watch your '6'?

February 11, 1999, 08:07 AM	#13
Ed Brunner Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Natchez, MS, USA Posts: 2,562	Why would we want them? Is it for our entertainment or do we really hope to convert them? Will THEY be edited? Will WE be edited? I know that open discoures promotes understanding.I think that I understand THEM already. It might be a venue for THEM to understand US,a very noble idea indeed. If we could convert just one... Lets try it! ------------------ Better days to be, Ed

February 11, 1999, 09:34 AM	#14
Hiker Member Join Date: January 20, 1999 Location: Virginia Posts: 77	It scares me a bit having the anti-gun crowd possibly diluting this good natured, informative forum. But it would offer a needed dialogue to show them, the anti-gun crowd, that we have common ground with them and maybe we could educate them on what our founding fathers thought was important and why. Hiker

February 11, 1999, 02:09 PM	#15
Mort Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 1998 Posts: 479	Right, and any post they made in, say, the Handguns forum would be certain to be good for a laugh.

February 11, 1999, 11:46 PM	#16
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	I've gotta think that "looking" for a confrontation can only be bad news. First of all, if I be-bop on into a liberal, socialist, gun control forum I'm not going to be polite for very long at all. Especially when I am jumped by 250 pro-gov't fanatics. (look at all the trouble was caused by my semi-jesting post at rec.gardens about Y2k Tactical Gardening...) Secondly, by inviting such a confrontation, we limit ourselves in our ability reprimand, delete, close threads and remove members without the offender's crying "Foul!" Rich has made it very clear that opposing opinions are welcome, when introduced in a civil manner. Under the current system, Sarah Brady herself could show up in Legal/political and explain that she is with the government and she is here to help and hopefully we would all behave ourselves and have an intelligent discourse. To go out an solicit or advertise that we have opened an Arena would only encourage their most embittered and aggressive gladiators to show up ready for a fight. Anyone looking for a real discussion should be able to see that we at TFL are not the type to condemn or shy away from a reasonable discussion of any topic. What's more, we have proven in the past that we are all much more likely to apologize for even simple misunderstandings than we are to gang-stomp anyone into submission. If we remain a mature, reasonable group, open minded people with opposing view points will certainly feel comfortable engaging us in anti-gun or neutral threads. ------------------ *-Essayons*

February 11, 1999, 11:55 PM	#17
Jeff Thomas Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 4,753	That's right! We'll make them feel very comfortable ... show them we're mature, reasonable, and open-minded ... that we are simply engaging in the free and civil discourse of opposing, but respected viewpoints. Then we gang-stomp 'em, right? sorry - just couldn't help it ...

February 12, 1999, 01:17 AM	#18
Mort Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 1998 Posts: 479	Rob, where are these "liberal, socialist, gun control" forums? I feel the old twitch in my Evangelical Cortex...

February 12, 1999, 04:06 AM	#19
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Well, unfortunatley for me on those days that I just need to put out a good stompin, there is no Rec.Liberal.Sheeple Furthermore, I'm not going to put out a hit-list on TFL of fun places to troll and feel good about yourself. (Email me ) Use your imagination, the testing grounds for your theories of conversion are out there. remember, they are tougher than you think. The anonymity of the keyboard empowers many of the sheeple! Leave your swinging watch at home and bring your Obi-Wan style powers of suggestion. If that doesn't work and you get put on the defensive.. let them strike the first blow, then hammer their sensitivities until they cry for a moderator to ban you and your brutal logicalness. ------------------ *-Essayons*

February 12, 1999, 11:41 AM	#20
DC Moderator Emeritus Join Date: September 30, 1998 Location: Calif Posts: 4,229	I would caution you all to behave in the newsgroups. Even if you put a phoney handle and e-mail addy, the header of your post shows your server. I've found that some of the rabid sheeple think there is nothing at all wrong about sending a false letter of complaint to your server accusing you of all sorts of things. Some servers will accept these complaints blindly and just cancel you without question. Smaller servers may listen to you and go thru the logs to see if you indeed did wrong. Regardless, it will be a hassle. These same people are the ones who used to tattle on the schoolyards. ------------------ "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

February 12, 1999, 03:47 PM	#21
Mort Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 1998 Posts: 479	You would be amazed, DC, at how you can use civility as camouflage anywhere you go. Since sheeple think that they're the only rational people in the world, anyone who behaves rationally and doesn't just post "GLOCK 4EVR AND DEF LEPPARD ROX MOTHER@$*&!%" might actually get listened to.

February 16, 1999, 10:02 PM	#22
KAM_Indianapolis Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 1999 Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA Posts: 612	I found the 'dialogue with Bob Musil' thread quite interesting. It was nice to see such reasoned debate about an often emotional topic. When ever you get fanatics in the same room you can predict not only the outcome (a verbal brawl) but what everyone will say (just read the websites of the diametrically opposed sides). However, when you put reasonable people in the same room there is no telling what may happen. People will actually discuss the issues, debating with facts and not emotional slogans. The outcome usually shocks no one, but contains a few nuggets of wisdom from both sides and maybe a few new interesting ideas. Would I welcome such an exchange, most definetely. Having just recently joined this forum I can say that I wouldn't want to see this forum brought down to the level of the first scenario above. So I would offer the forum heading, not neccesarily advertise it but mention it to people who are anti-gun, who you think are reasonable. Put a big disclaimer when you register at this site. And make sure people know to post threads in the appropriate forums. If it get's out of hand kill the topic. Deal with individuals on an individual basis. Peace... Keith

February 17, 1999, 12:47 AM	#23
Mort Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 1998 Posts: 479	Well. You can all see from my latest post to the Musil thread that Dr. Musil has respectfully declined the position of moderator. I figured as much, he is busy. Any other suggestions for moderator? And how should we get the message out?

February 17, 1999, 08:45 AM	#24
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Mort- Speaking as Member (not owner), I think we should let it go. The risks to our site are great enough when we invite someone in who has already demonstrated a willingness to be civil. If we go out "looking" for a group to represent the other side, we may be inviting a simple troll war. In this case, however, I'm more than willing to leave the decision to popular opininion. Rich

February 18, 1999, 12:34 AM	#25
Jeff Thomas Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 4,753	Well, if we're looking for a pro-gun moderator, and a troll war, how about Sarah Brady? She's a troll in my book!