fireformed brass

[brselman]

Probably my ignorance again! Is it true that once you fireform new brass at a given powder load, you should NEVER load them again with a HIGHER load? I read that in Guns magazine.

[hodaka]

I don't know where that came from. For years I have fireformed using the smallest charge that would push the cheapest bullet I had out the barrel. Then I start the serious load work-ups. Others I short with use pistol powder and some sort of stuffing (looks like cotton) to fireform.

[impact]

I fireform 7mmTCU, 358JDJ and 357 Herrett. You start at 10% below min charge. Then you make your working load. To be honest after doing it for so long I just start with my working load. Anytime you fire a non semiauto gun you fireform the cartridge to the chamber anyway!

[brselman]

The article appeared in "Guns Magazine," July 6, 2006 authored by Glen Zediker pp. 26-30.

I am relatively new to reloading (ca. 8 mo now), and have done quite a bit of reading on it, but I had never read that particular warning.

[ConRich]

I agree with the previous post. It just doesn't make any sence.

Rich

[joneb]

The reason for the warning , stuck cases ?
For my target loads I have a pretty good idea for the charge and bullet with full sized brass. Once that as been determined I will neck size only and index the cases. after that, some minor teaking to the charge may occure . with longer bullets these rounds won't fit in the mag. of my bolt gun since the the bullet is seated just off the riflings.

[Jim Watson]

Glen Zediker pretty well knows his stuff.
I would have to read the article or see his recommendation verbatim to know what he was really getting at.

[amamnn]

Is it possible that he was talking about max loads? Or that you should not expect the same performance out of a hotter load?

[dmickey]

Here is the link to the questionable article: http://64.241.242.253/p/articles/mi_...2/ai_n16419702

The statement is at the bottom of page 4. Quite frankly, it makes no sense to me either. I usually use a powder that I have a surplus of or powder that is getting old that I have data for.

Dennis Mickey @ Littlestown, Pennsylvania

[brselman]

As I tell my students all of the time, reading the literature often leads to more questions than answers!!

I want to thank everyone who has responded to this thread.

[Jim Watson]

NRA said a case shot with a LIGHT load should not be used for a standard load because the shoulder will likely have been set back and give excess cartridge headspace. GZ seems to be taking it way farther with working up loads. But then he is working up loads for match shooting and is probably seeing effects not obvious in ordinary use.

Note that he is using the old Rocky Gibbs pressure criterion. Load as heavy as you want to as long as the primer pockets stay tight for a reasonable number of uses.

I guess I'll have to get his book.

[amamnn]

I don't know what "benchresters" this guy has been hanging out with, but I've never had that kind of time between rounds to load ammo and test it. Once the match has started, you shoot what you brought; you don't get to waste everyone's time playing with testing your grouping.. Most people I know don't like to shoot ammo that's too "fresh" due to the start pressure variations that occur when the powder has not had time to settle. Also, after some mishaps, the competition ranges where I shoot do not allow open powder and primer containers during competitions. As far as the brass "setting" that was disproved years ago.

[VincentB]

I would agree with him if fireforming with extremely light "Gallery" style loads. But I would NOT agree with him for any book listed loads. Extremely light loads CAN cause headspace problems and those cases SHOULD ONLY be used for other very light loads. But, by the time you get to manual starting loads you have also gotten to the point of FULLY fireforming the brass.

I have fireformed several thousand .30 Herret and 22 K-Hornet cases without a SINGLE lost case and with no problems reloading them later.

[Scorch]

I'm confused here. I used to fireform 357 Herrett, 8X56 Hungarian, 11mm Mauser, and 9X57 Mauser. Other loaders may have more experience than I do, but here's what I know.

In the old manual I was using when I started (I believe it was Lyman, but I'm not sure) it said to use a lead bullet in front of a light load and to seat the bullet against the rifling to avoid shoulder setback due to the case moving forward due to the firing pin strike. It seems that no one is doing this, or that I was doing something out of the ordinary when fireforming.

I never had problems firing full charge loads, other than shoulders blowing out occasionally. I was told that was due to the brass stretching too much in those areas during the forming process, but it happened so infrequently I didn't worry about it. These weren't high-pressure rounds, except for the Herrett.

[VincentB]

I'm not sure what you mean by "blowing out the shoulder" Do you mean that the brass actually let go? If so, that is what this warning is all about. If you don't fill the shoulder out during the fireforming process and the headspace is controlled by by the shoulder then you have created a headspace probablem. This can be very dangerous. Nothing wrong with your method as long as it has enough power to form the datam line on the shoulder. If not that is when you have created a head space problem.

I have fireformed using several method include the one above but with jacketed bullets. Most commonly, unless it is a wildcat you have to move the shoulder forward I just get some cheap bullets and load the starting load and go target or pest shooting. On the K-Hornet Contender I would put a load of FAST power topped by cream of wheat and topped by a wax plug. Then I would lube the cases with Imperial Case and Die lube and shoot them into the air. The lube insures that the case does NOT grip the chamber walls and therefore it does not stretch the case. The other K-Hornet method used was to load the round with the bullet well into the rifling and use how ever strong a load that will from the case, again book starting loads will usually work well but be care as the pressues CAN jump with the bullet crammed into the lands but this keeps the firing pin strike from driving the case foward.

With something like the Herretts I would size the cases so the Contender would just barely close on it. That way you have properly established the headspace datam line so all you do when you fireform is fillout the case and shoulder and book starting load was good for that. Another thing is that many people just waste forming loads. I seem them just shooting into the dirt and getting bored. USE these loads. With my .30 Herrett I would either practice by shooting silohoutte turkeys. With my rifle loads I will practice my offhand shooting.

[Unclenick]

I read the article, then read Zediker's more complete commentary in Reloading for Competion (p.p. 73-74, 2001 edition). First, this is not a safety issue and Zediker freely admits most over-the-course shooters won't be able to tell the difference. His rationale comes from the measurable fact that his ". . . 200 yard weenie load. . ." does not fireform a case to a chamber as rigorously as his much stiffer 600 yard load. Moreover, stretching and brass hardening continue with subsequent firings. For this reason many benchrest shooters don't consider the case to have been completely blueprinted to the chamber ("settled" by fireforming) until it has been reloaded and fired five times with the same load and neck sizing-only.

Zediker's point is that the 600 yard load will size the case bigger than even a "settled" 200 yard case will be. Therefore, if you load up a "settled" and hardened case you will stretch the hardened brass further. This will not only shorten case life, but if you go back to shooting 200 yard loads in it, it will no longer exactly match the dimensions of brass that has only had 200 yard loads fired through it. Because of case life and hardening considerations, Zediker makes the statement "first impressions count". I take this to mean that the first pressure firing starts the process of settling the case to final blueprint, and once started, subsequent higher pressure firing will not do exactly the same thing to it as a case that was initially fireformed at higher pressure. Zediker doesn't spell it out quite this way, so it is partially inferred, but I think in line with his train of thought.

This is benchrest picky. Unless your gun is shooting in the 3's or better, I wouldn't worry about it.

As far as fast powder and fireforming loads, Zediker uses what he will shoot anyway, since he doesn't shoot slow powders in the first place. He says you theoretically get a tighter blueprint if you use enough of a faster powder to reach the same pressure as your regular load, but because he isn't shooting H1000 or other really slow stuff, he doesn't bother to make up a separate charge. He fireforms with the bullet seated well out and pushed firmly onto the lands as Scorch described. However, the bullets he uses aren't anything other than his usual bullet for the load. Zediker says the pressure increase from being on the lands with no jump is equivalent to about a half a grain of powder charge increase (in the .223), so reduce the load by that much when you do it. This half-grain rule may apply fairly universally since, in general, as bullets get bigger, so does case volume. It would be interesting to investigate.

Nick

[gdog]

Over 30 years ago I bought a 25.06.My retired Airforce friend had two 50 gallon drums of 30.06 he brought back from the base.To old and lazy to go thru resizing and fire forming,setting up the seating length now.A lot of work but came up with a super accurate loads.Setting up every thing just for that one rifle is worth it.Your reloads might not even chamber are be a loose fit in another rifle and may be unsafe.Read read and go slow.Buy an Oehler chrono to if you are really serious.
Ed

[Unclenick]

Oehler is no longer selling chronographs for hand loaders. I've heard in one forum post that it is because of problems with their printer supplier, but the printer was an option before, so I doubt that's really what's going on. It may be cost or liability. Their model 43 ballistics lab is still available. The CED Millennium is about the only alternative which matches the performance of the Oehler 35 well.

Nick

[amamnn]

I read this article too. He also makes mention of proving a load in three shots, taking tons of ammo back and forth from home to the range and bringing back "hundreds" of rounds that did not prove out.
1- you can't prove anything about a load in less than 10 shots--30 is better
2- You load up 10 to 30 of all the variations you want to try and test them before loading up hundreds
3- most benchrest shooters full length size these days
Apparently he went to a match and got about half of it.
4- when they did--by the time you shot 5 it was time to anneal and you were back to square 2 again