Does anyone carry 1911's anymore?

[dahermit]

Based on the practices of the era, and period documentation, the M1911 was not designed to be carried cocked and locked, it was designed to be carried with a round in the chamber and the hammer down.

I just want to point out that although this poster provided copies of army manuals and a statement from Gen. Hatcher as proof of his statement, logic dictates that there is a difference between what the army and Gen. Hatcher had decided was the proper carry method and what the actual designer (John Browning), had in mind relative to intended (A.K.A., mode he intended) carry mode. Therefore, with that evidence (army manual, Hatcher's statement), which is moot, the matter is not settled. I would ask that the 1911 historians here produce something from John Browning that states how the 1911 was designed to be carried. He was the only true authority on intended mode of carry.

In regard to the Army manual's manual of arms of applying the safety with the thumb of the right hand if two hands were not available, I also have doubts that, that was the designer's intention. I find that applying the safety with the thumb of the right hand is awkward and the original 1911 and 1911A1 military safeties are poorly designed as to encourage that. If that was intended, it seems that the projection on the safety would have been more ergonomically designed for an upward stroke of the thumb.

As for the issue of carry condition (one, two, or three), to me it is abundantly obvious that peoples' fear of condition one is a matter of perception rather than reality in that there are several/many guns (.22 Ruger autos, etc.), that are routinely carried in condition one and not having a visible indication of being cocked and locked due to no external hammer, causes no consternation whatsoever...out of sight, out of mind.

I have two Colt Combat (steel frames) Commanders, one in .45 ACP and the other in .38 Super. Although I like to shoot them, at my age they are too heavy and bulky for concealed carry in my estimation...I pocket carry (Bianchi pocket holster), a S&W 36.
Circa 70's .38 Super


XSE Commander .45 ACP

[Kreyzhorse]

Mine full sized, all steel TRP is still my winter go to gun. With a proper holster and belt, it's a joy to carry and with winter clothing, a snap to conceal.

[Cosmodragoon]

dahermit wrote:

...it is abundantly obvious that peoples' fear of condition one is a matter of perception rather than reality...

Fear, discomfort, dissonance, superstition, or just plain preference; I admitted as much a few posts ago. It's always better when we can be honest with ourselves.

... there are several/many guns (.22 Ruger autos, etc.), that are routinely carried in condition one and not having a visible indication of being cocked and locked due to no external hammer, causes no consternation whatsoever...out of sight, out of mind.

Yes, there is definitely something disconcerting about seeing it for me. However, that doesn't mean "out of sight, out of mind". I've had light-triggered, striker-fired guns with no manual safety. (I've actually never owned one with a manual safety.) I have carried them. I even invested in a nice horsehide holster for one of them. This thread got me thinking though... I learned something about myself this morning. All of those guns got most of their carry time in the first six months I owned them. Now, the ones I still own mostly just get out to the range. They're like the 1911s, only easier to take down and reassemble.

[mavracer]

I would ask that the 1911 historians here produce something from John Browning that states how the 1911 was designed to be carried. He was the only true authority on intended mode of carry.

JMB designed it the way they asked him too, they intended the pistol be carried hammer down on a live round and asked for the thumb safety so that the gun could be rendered safe and holstered while on horseback.

[Tactical Jackalope]

I disagree. It was meant to be chambered with the hammer back and the safety on.

[mavracer]

I disagree. It was meant to be chambered with the hammer back and the safety on.

Disagree with what? Yes he designed it to be holstered chambered with the safety on that's what I said. The difference is this wasn't inteded by Hatcher to be the intended regular mode of carry, it was only intended to be temporary until the soldier could lower the hammer safely.
Cocked and Locked carry didn't come into vogue for another ~50 years

[dahermit]

Quote:
I would ask that the 1911 historians here produce something from John Browning that states how the 1911 was designed to be carried. He was the only true authority on intended mode of carry.

JMB designed it the way they asked him too, they intended the pistol be carried hammer down on a live round and asked for the thumb safety so that the gun could be rendered safe and holstered while on horseback.

I guess you missed the keywords. I have italicized, bolded, and underlined them for you.

[WC145]

In regard to the Army manual's manual of arms of applying the safety with the thumb of the right hand if two hands were not available, I also have doubts that, that was the designer's intention. I find that applying the safety with the thumb of the right hand is awkward and the original 1911 and 1911A1 military safeties are poorly designed as to encourage that. If that was intended, it seems that the projection on the safety would have been more ergonomically designed for an upward stroke of the thumb.

Do tell. How do you suggest the safety be more easily or effectively engaged/disengaged than with the thumb of the right hand?

We're all aware that the 1911 pistol was intended to be carried with the hammer down on a live round, that JMB didn't have a thumb safety in the original design, and that it was added at the request of the Army so that soldiers on horseback could engage the safety while riding since it was deemed too difficult/unsafe to lower the hammer on a live round while riding.

As far as the design of the original thumb safety, if I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that it was made with the stubby platform so that it would not get in the way of the shooters thumb, which would have spent far more time cocking and decking the pistol than engaging and disengaging the safety in the early days. If we refer back to the text provided, the idea wasn't that it would see the constant use that thumb safeties do today with the majority of 1911 aficionado's carrying them in cocked and locked. Rather, it was something that would be used occasionally under specific circumstances while, the majority of the time, the gun would be carried hammer down on a live round. I wonder how much of a concern the ergonomics of the thumb safety were at the time, considering it was, literally, an afterthought.

[dahermit]

JMB designed it the way they asked him too, they intended the pistol be carried hammer down on a live round and asked for the thumb safety so that the gun could be rendered safe and holstered while on horseback.

Lets see...gun in flap holster on right hip, round in the chamber, hammer down. Left hand on the horse's reins. Does one drop the reins from the left hand to cock the hammer or attempt to cock the hammer with right thumb while hold the gun in the shooting position in the right hand without dropping the gun while the horse is vigorously moving around? Once the right thumb comes off the grip, the hold on a 1911 seems to be less than stable (no pun intended), or a practical practice even with the ample spur on the 1911's.

[dahermit]

Do tell. How do you suggest the safety be more easily or effectively engaged/disengaged than with the thumb of the right hand?

In case you have not noticed, my post said nothing about disengaging the safety. My post was about engaging (upward movement) the safety with a part of the thumb that does not have a pad or much mechanical advantage against a somewhat stiff safety as many of them are...on horseback, at a gallop, under the stress of battlefield conditions.

[seeker_two]

Originally Posted by dahermit

Lets see...gun in flap holster on right hip, round in the chamber, hammer down. Left hand on the horse's reins. Does one drop the reins from the left hand to cock the hammer or attempt to cock the hammer with right thumb while hold the gun in the shooting position in the right hand without dropping the gun while the horse is vigorously moving around? Once the right thumb comes off the grip, the hold on a 1911 seems to be less than stable (no pun intended), or a practical practice even with the ample spur on the 1911's.

These were soldiers who were already used to cocking Colt SAA revolvers one-handed....the skill-set is the same. And the original 1911's had spur hammers and shorter "beavertail" grip safeties that allowed for easy thumb-cocking. Modern versions (extended beavertail, rowel hammers) pretty much ruined this ability and forced Condition One carry for everyone.

[Overkill777]

My philosophy on carry is to carry what you shoot the best that you are willing to have on your hip all day long.

I shoot my 1911 better than any other handgun I've shot. I do carry it now and then, always cocked and locked in a proper holster that protects the safety. The weight is the only issue for me. I like how slender it is and the length doesn't bother me.

On days I don't feel like lugging a big chunk of steel around on my hip, I now have a sig p938 which is very easy to conceal and I am very satisfied with how it shoots. I love the single action triggers on these pistols.

[mavracer]

I guess you missed the keywords. I have italicized, bolded, and underlined them for you.

http://www.google.com/patents/US984519

It's kind of hard to read as it is computer translated but about 1/2 way down he explains all the functions of the hammer, thumb safety and grip safety.

I'll also not he specifically notes that the hammer if pulled back past full cock is designed to trip the grip safety allowing to decock the pistol one handed.

[Dirty_Harry]

Nope. Have seen too many have problems. Also I hate "cocked and locked". The last thing I want to do if pulling my pistol is disengage a safety. Give me an HK DA/SA please.

[NWCP]

I carried 1911s for a long time. I was trained on 1911s in the military and liked the feel of the pistol. In 2000 I made a change. I purchased my first HK USP45 compact. Since then I've carried HKs almost exclusively when wanting a 45ACP pistol. My current carry pistol is the HK45C. The ability to carry DA/SA with one in the chamber, or cocked and locked as I did with my 1911s works for me. Out of the box the trigger is better, the action smoother and the overall construction is superior IMHO. It is also a lighter weapon. I have kept two 1911s in the safe, but they are no longer on my belt.

[TheGunPunch]

I like to carry my 1911's in the winter when I'm able to wear a jacket. It is very comforting having a 1911 on your hip

[redrick]

I was surprised by this poll . I wouldn't have thought that the Govt. would have such a lead .

I really like the Govt. , but prefer to carry a 4" with a Officer grip .

[Tactical Jackalope]

Originally Posted by Dirty_Harry

Nope. Have seen too many have problems. Also I hate "cocked and locked". The last thing I want to do if pulling my pistol is disengage a safety. Give me an HK DA/SA please.

Amen. My EDC is either a P229 (right now) or a P226. While they aren't HK, I would love a HK45C. I'm waiting for my friend Uncle Malice to sell me his.

Originally Posted by NWCP

I carried 1911s for a long time. I was trained on 1911s in the military and liked the feel of the pistol. In 2000 I made a change. I purchased my first HK USP45 compact. Since then I've carried HKs almost exclusively when wanting a 45ACP pistol. My current carry pistol is the HK45C. The ability to carry DA/SA with one in the chamber, or cocked and locked as I did with my 1911s works for me. Out of the box the trigger is better, the action smoother and the overall construction is superior IMHO. It is also a lighter weapon. I have kept two 1911s in the safe, but they are no longer on my belt.

See? I want an HK45C and this makes me want one even more.

Originally Posted by TheGunPunch

I like to carry my 1911's in the winter when I'm able to wear a jacket. It is very comforting having a 1911 on your hip

Lol, yeah well.. it's only the worlds best trigger. Just that safety that kills me.

Originally Posted by redrick

I was surprised by this poll . I wouldn't have thought that the Govt. would have such a lead .

I really like the Govt. , but prefer to carry a 4" with a Officer grip .

I actually was surprised too. Everyone I know that carries a 1911 (usually older people with some younger ones in there) carry a commander at most. I mainly see them carry these officer or micro models.

[Coogs]

I'm a big guy so I can hide a full sized gov't well. Coogs.

[WC145]

Personally, I like the 1911s thumb safety, I'm used to it and comfortable with it. I've never had an issue with one and disengaging it is just part of the draw.

I've always found it funny that for all the other things that people learn to do in this world without conscious thought, so many are concerned over the possibility of being stumped by a click of a switch on their pistol when the pressure is on. And yet, for all of those concerns, no one has any worries about operating the safeties on their ARs, PDWs, home defense shotguns, etc..

[Brian48]

I carry a sw1911 subcompact. It's my favorite EDC gun right now.

[noonesshowmonkey]

No. There are production high capacity handguns in whatever caliber I want that exceed the ergonomics, capacity, durability, reliability, weight, etc. of the 1911. Beyond the non-hinged trigger, there really isn't anything going for the 1911 that another handgun can't do better, and for less assache and money spent.

Finally, for any carrying a handgun with the likelihood of its use, this is a moot point: policy often dictates what is carried. Past that, it's a coffee table book you wear on your hip.

I find the debate about the intended vs. designed use of the 1911 hilarious and academic. See above re: policy.

I know a guy that has a Model T that can make 35 mph, so I guess it is a great around-the-town car. Ya know, for groceries. This dead horse is hilarious.

[kilimanjaro]

Definitely the 1911 in some form is pretty omnipresent.

[Blue Duck]

I have went full circle, pretty much, and I always end up coming back to the Lightweight commander. It's my favorite carry gun, and short of a pocket .380 or something, I find it as easy to carry and easier then most other choices, unless I drop down in stopping power and effectiveness.

As far as I am concerned all development of personal side arms for self defense could have stopped with the Lightweight Commander.

[Tactical Jackalope]

I carry a lightweight commander when I'm feeling like carrying a 1911. Which isn't often. The Smith and Wesson is a scandium framed, titanium firing pin, beast.