Question about tactics - Page 2

raimius · January 14, 2011, 02:12 PM

The biggest rule for intervention to me is "Harm no innocents."
What does that mean? First, make sure you positively ID the target. Second, make sure your shots ONLY hit the intended target.

I've seen SWAT members miss hostage-type targets at 4 yards with pistols, with no time limit. (CSAT hostage targets) Make sure you make your hits!

cit1911 · January 14, 2011, 10:29 PM

Good thinking Gentleman! All in all, we can all agree that all the factors in this particular case will more than likely not be in another.

And as it pertains to the original question, I would get involved, if that be shooting the guy, seeking cover and calling police, or tazing the SOB. Of course if he is 14 feet away and I am with my family, I will do what needs to be done. But if he is 100 feet away... I'm not going to run in there like rambo blasting shots. I would seek cover and call police.

What things could be "practiced" for a situation like this?

Double Naught Spy · January 15, 2011, 11:53 AM

Yelling at the shooter to "drop the gun" or other such commands may go a long ways to helping others realize that you are a good guy and to help keep another potential good guy shooter from shooting you. The downside is that it may prompt with bad guy as well and remove the tactical advantage that you had of him not realizing that you were present or that you were a threat.

Quote:

According to reports this morning there was a CCW holder at the scene and he was one of the folks responsible for restraining the shooter. From what was reported the CCW made the right choice in NOT using his weapon

Zamudio didn't have any real choice. He was not present for the shooting, but was inside a drug store buying cigarettes. He did respond to the shooting, but by the time he arrived, the shooting had stopped and the shooter was grounded with two guys already on top of him. His "right choice" to not use his gun wasn't any sort of great achievement. He didn't even see his potential target until it was covered up with good guys with several others around.

Quote:

OK but remember you are not LE and your CCW permit does not extend that right to you.

The CCW permit doesn't, but the law does. I can use lethal force to stop lethal force and I can effect a citizen's arrest.

Dwight55 · January 15, 2011, 12:01 PM

cit1911 asked what we could practice for these situations:

1. Distance shooting, . . . most importantly knowing just how far away you are really qualified, capable, and willing to engage a bg. Realize there is a world of difference in trying to put a COM shot on a 375 pound lard bag standing up, . . . and trying to hit the head of a BG who is hunkered behind a tree, dumpster, etc. Knowing your capability comes only from practice.

2. Family warnings, . . . getting your family in tune with whatever warning you would give them: a code word, a scramble alert, whatever. The last thing you need is a family member thinking you are playing around as the BG's are busting in the front door and you have to settle the silly little family matter first. They need to react: instantaneously, without question, and correctly.

3. Your equipment, . . . practicing with your equipment in such a manner that you don't have to question if you have it, . . . where it is, . . . what condition it is in, . . . is it loaded, . . . where are the bullets and the batteries, . . . etc.

I believe these are the most important because simply, . . . I (and you) are not carrying the responsibility of protecting the known free world. We are only responsible for ourselves, our family, and those around us when the stuff hits the fan. We can best serve those responsibilities if we do the above.

May God bless,
Dwight

steve54 · January 15, 2011, 02:17 PM

I think it's important to bear in mind that most of the people around a situation like this would have little or no idea what was going on at the time of the incident. Not hearing things , not seeing things, senses shutting down in the excitement
I , for one, wouldn't want to risk getting myself shot in an melee so the decision to shoot/not shoot is difficult, it's not like you can shout that your the police etc plus you will need to be prepared for the aftermath
IF I did have the opportunity to shoot an active shooter AND I was safe in doing so - I would probably reholster and probably leave the scene for a safe place while calling in to LE what I did

2edgesword · January 15, 2011, 02:30 PM

As other have mentioned...

Be sure of your target.

Be sure of your capabilities.

As for minimizing the chances of your being identified as the bad guy yelling "help POLICE (as in calling for police assistance), get down" might help. While there are laws against impersonation a LEO, I think it would be hard to make the case that your yelling "help POLICE" was a form of self-identification rather then a calling for assistance.

raimius · January 15, 2011, 06:30 PM

I honestly cannot think of a prosecutor going after a CCWer who stopped an active shooter for shouting something like "Police, get down." I think there would be too much "hero status" from the media for that.

...now, if the stop was not successful or the CCWer hit someone else, yeah, they might get the kitchen sink thrown at them by a prosecutor!

Don P · January 15, 2011, 06:38 PM

Quote:

What things could be "practiced" for a situation like this?

I personally do not think there is training for what happened in Arizona. If you want training to deal with folks like the shooter in Arizona join a law enforcement agency. They'll give you all the training you need, or join the military, they too will give you all the training you need and if you show you're good enough maybe sniper school.

raimius · January 15, 2011, 06:43 PM

Quote:

If you want training to deal with folks like the shooter in Arizona join a law enforcement agency. They'll give you all the training you need, or join the military, they too will give you all the training you need

Sadly, no. Most organizations do not pay for their employees to take that sort of training (active shooter response, hostage situations, personal protective detail work, etc). Sure, some of the better agencies might, but the average officer isn't likely to see much training on that (powerpoints don't count as good training).

therewolf · January 28, 2011, 08:14 PM

Be sure of my target-would be getting my family and myself safely away,

while calling 911 to summon personnel specifically trained to handle this situation

THE POLICE.

I know my capabilities and I'm certain I was never trained to handle a situation like this.

If you plan on "handling" "scenarios" like these, perhaps you should study at

the police academy...l

January 15, 2011, 12:01 PM	#29
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	cit1911 asked what we could practice for these situations: 1. Distance shooting, . . . most importantly knowing just how far away you are really qualified, capable, and willing to engage a bg. Realize there is a world of difference in trying to put a COM shot on a 375 pound lard bag standing up, . . . and trying to hit the head of a BG who is hunkered behind a tree, dumpster, etc. Knowing your capability comes only from practice. 2. Family warnings, . . . getting your family in tune with whatever warning you would give them: a code word, a scramble alert, whatever. The last thing you need is a family member thinking you are playing around as the BG's are busting in the front door and you have to settle the silly little family matter first. They need to react: instantaneously, without question, and correctly. 3. Your equipment, . . . practicing with your equipment in such a manner that you don't have to question if you have it, . . . where it is, . . . what condition it is in, . . . is it loaded, . . . where are the bullets and the batteries, . . . etc. I believe these are the most important because simply, . . . I (and you) are not carrying the responsibility of protecting the known free world. We are only responsible for ourselves, our family, and those around us when the stuff hits the fan. We can best serve those responsibilities if we do the above. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

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January 14, 2011, 02:12 PM	#26
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	The biggest rule for intervention to me is "Harm no innocents." What does that mean? First, make sure you positively ID the target. Second, make sure your shots ONLY hit the intended target. I've seen SWAT members miss hostage-type targets at 4 yards with pistols, with no time limit. (CSAT hostage targets) Make sure you make your hits!

January 14, 2011, 10:29 PM	#27
cit1911 Member Join Date: January 12, 2011 Location: Cedar Valley, Utah Posts: 15	Good thinking Gentleman! All in all, we can all agree that all the factors in this particular case will more than likely not be in another. And as it pertains to the original question, I would get involved, if that be shooting the guy, seeking cover and calling police, or tazing the SOB. Of course if he is 14 feet away and I am with my family, I will do what needs to be done. But if he is 100 feet away... I'm not going to run in there like rambo blasting shots. I would seek cover and call police. What things could be "practiced" for a situation like this?

January 15, 2011, 02:17 PM	#30
steve54 Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 29	I think it's important to bear in mind that most of the people around a situation like this would have little or no idea what was going on at the time of the incident. Not hearing things , not seeing things, senses shutting down in the excitement I , for one, wouldn't want to risk getting myself shot in an melee so the decision to shoot/not shoot is difficult, it's not like you can shout that your the police etc plus you will need to be prepared for the aftermath IF I did have the opportunity to shoot an active shooter AND I was safe in doing so - I would probably reholster and probably leave the scene for a safe place while calling in to LE what I did

January 15, 2011, 02:30 PM	#31
2edgesword Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Location: Suffolk County, NY Posts: 83	As other have mentioned... Be sure of your target. Be sure of your capabilities. As for minimizing the chances of your being identified as the bad guy yelling "help POLICE (as in calling for police assistance), get down" might help. While there are laws against impersonation a LEO, I think it would be hard to make the case that your yelling "help POLICE" was a form of self-identification rather then a calling for assistance.

January 15, 2011, 06:30 PM	#32
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	I honestly cannot think of a prosecutor going after a CCWer who stopped an active shooter for shouting something like "Police, get down." I think there would be too much "hero status" from the media for that. ...now, if the stop was not successful or the CCWer hit someone else, yeah, they might get the kitchen sink thrown at them by a prosecutor!

January 28, 2011, 08:14 PM	#35
therewolf Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2011 Posts: 133	Be sure of my target-would be getting my family and myself safely away, while calling 911 to summon personnel specifically trained to handle this situation THE POLICE. I know my capabilities and I'm certain I was never trained to handle a situation like this. If you plan on "handling" "scenarios" like these, perhaps you should study at the police academy...l