.410 – what about it?

sm · July 27, 2006, 09:59 PM

.410 – what about it?

Did you know if you take that 2 ½” .410 target load of ½ oz #9 hard shot, and a 12 gauge, 1 oz target load of #9 hard shot, and fire them both from Skeet choked guns, from same distance, at a pattern board -the patterns are the same size ?

“Matter of bore – not choke” – Brister.

Yep, sure will.
One can take the same loads, and shoot from same chokes, be it Improved Cylinder, Modified, and Full, same thing happens - .410 will be the same size as the 12 bore.

Twenty Eight gauge has been discussed, the payload to bore is like no other. It really is better than it is supposed to be. Check any tote board at any Skeet Club and you can read for yourself.
“Little Critter” , this 28 ga, is better that it is supposed to be.

Check that tote board for the “Littlest Critter” – the .410.
This will also reveal this is the most difficult of the four guns to shoot well in Skeet.

I’m going to standardize the four guns used in Skeet to try and keep matters simple.
All this transitions for other clay games, hunting and even more serious situations

Gauges 12, 20, 28 and .410;with respected target loads of 1 oz, 7/8 oz, 3/4oz and ½ oz.

Number of pellets per ounce: #9, # 8.5, #8 and # 7.5 being 585, 500, 410, and 350 respectfully.

All loads at 1200 feet per second (fps)

Remember, there is a lot of “Art and Science” to shotguns and their loadings. We have discussed this quite a bit, the archives have a lot of information. I suggest a search using Dave McC ,check his sticky's , and those that have read “Shotgunning: The Art And Science “ know exactly where I am going.

If that .410 tosses the same size pattern as a 12 bore, then why are the scores on the tote board as they are?
Why does one miss a dove, quail, even a more stationary target such as a squirrel with a .410 ?

Take a tennis ball, or a clay target and to both targets fired by the .410 and 12 bore.

Pattern density is the answer.

Tennis ball or clay to represent a target held up will reveal “holes” in the pattern. You can place the tennis ball or clay onto the pattern board to see this.

Remember as well not all pellets arrive at the same time. .28 gauge are known for “shorter shot strings” , .410s typically have” longer shot strings”

You missed – even being on target , one misses because the target literally flew thru the hole of the .410 pattern. That squirrel, just sitting there, got lucky, “hole shot” - pellets did not hit.

Twenty eight gauge, with short shot strings, payload to bore, and all the Art & Science, hits and fells with authority!

sm · July 27, 2006, 10:10 PM

This is why a .410 is not the best choice to start a new shooter on.

New shooters need self esteem and confidence in breaking targets. The 28 gauge is a better gun to start off a new shooter. Less felt recoil, hits with authority, and the self confidence soars, and we have another shooter hooked on Responsible Firearm Ownership. From here we have gained another to assist in many areas we believe in, as respresented by TFL Mission statement.

"But the 28 ga ammo is expensive..."
"I'll have to get into reloading perhaps..."

Hey, investing in a kid, new shooter, is worth the money. One cannot put a value on a kid, new shooter, especially when one takes into account the return in investment by being involved with hunting , legal and political , voting, and the list goes on.

Turn off a shooter, as some do with whopper loads to laugh at new folks and we ALL lose. One can never place the total value of a negative experience.

Now that I have laid the ground work for some new folks, hopefully some with kids being "wiggle-worms" near the monitor...

About that .410...

sm · July 27, 2006, 11:35 PM

Littlest Critters are cute!
Neat too!

...Uncle Steve said my "cute" gun
...and he said my "neat" gun

All right "wiggle-wart" and "wiggle-worm" , I said it. So quit driving Mom nuts and wearing out Granpa's knees.

--

Teaching. Relearning. Fun Factor. Improving Skills and Focus.

- One can learn lots of lessons by using a BB gun. See Brister's book , this it what I have done forever. I do this with small kids, teenager's, adults and even the elderly.

Then I transition to a 28 ga if can - if not I do use a single shot .410 .

I use the .410 for special reasons, circumstance, and have methods.

-Some folks due to injuries, such as detached retinas , shoulder surgery, back surgery are under Doctor's Orders to not shoot due to recoil causing more serious damage.

At such time, the Doctor says it is okay to shoot again, soft recoil is mandated. .22 rifles are most often suggested first.

Shotguns are allowed - sometimes, eventually, and really light recoil means a .410.

This might mean a whole lot to someone really wanting to dove hunt / squirrel with a Kid, like a parent, or grandparent. Some matters one cannot put a price tag on. Maybe just hitting tin cans, or portable trap thrower on the farm with a kid, spouse, you name it.

-Little kids not big enough to actually hold or shoot by themselves, can still learn about shotguns, and loads. A kid is nothing more than a smaller sized human being, that has not lived as long as others.

Kids have the same rights as everyone else , the COTUS and BoR says so. Responsible adults , parents just do the reponsible thing and pass forward.

Kids are not stupid, if you share with a kid, all about the .410, the loads and everything, they will understand. Answer all questions. Make it fun.

I often use popcorn kernals to replace lead pellets. Another thing I and others have done forever. With a kid, observing all safety rules, shoot at a farm pond with paper on the other side.

They see the holes in the paper, pellets richochet off water.
Kids remember this, just as they do the .22 short exploding a can of soda.

Little stuff is dangerous too. No matter how cute, neat, or small, the safety lessons need to be instilled , and reminded often.

Little kids, slap the trigger while I hold the gun, we break balloons, or shoot paper. Tad bigger kids, with help, and some have to put even a kids stock under arm ,to shoot.

They learn about patterns. If they want to connect the "dots" and draw a picture, watercolor it too, well why not? I can do this too. So much negative in Media, Schools and all, being a part of a Positve, Responsible Firearm experience is again an investment in our future.

That kid, will understand they are not big enough to shoot a shotgun by themselves. They understand the .410 is not as effective as a 28, 20 or 12, because we walked out after shooting a patterne board and let them hold tennis balls, clay targets and even pictures of doves, squirrels , rabbits, and quail to "see why one misses".

I know 5 year olds that know more about pattering than adults.

Kids will understand for the time being, that BB gun, and .22 rifle is "their size" and is okay to learn those skills for now.

Human beings, no matter size, just want to be treated like a human being with respect and courtesy. Answer questions, let them see, and they understand the reasons something is not right for them.

NEVER just "stick" a .410 single shot in a kid's hands and go "here kid, here is a shotgun"

Now the kid has been talked down to , feels like a kid, with a kid's gun, and when they miss, they feel low self esteem and rotten.

"Yuck, what a rotten experince, this gun stuff is stupid and no fun, maybe the Teacher / TV was right, all gun owners are jerks!"

How many more kids is this kid going to share that rotten experience with?
Some day this kid is going to be of age to vote, how will that rotten experience influence his voting?

--

Now I and other have worked with Ladies and Gents, all ages, brought up in Anti-gun familes. Those folks that have been a victim of a firearm in some way. I have worked with battered women, traumatized by a firearm, sexually assaulted, or raped..or...

Folks from totally clueless to scared to death of a .410 shotgun.

Gain the trust.

Again as I have shared before, I de-prime a hull, re-prime it, and nothing else.

Safety is paramount, and a big part of this safety is knowing I am NOT going to do anything to hurt, scare or frighten them.

Four Rules of Safety, they get to see how the gun actually works and hear and feel a "bang".

That double ear protection lessens felt recoil. Having taken the single shot apart, letting them see, feel ask however many questions , no matter how many times, and then the gun was actually "worked" and "fired".

Again, I do not care and have used , who knows how many rounds of nothing but primer only shotshells, including .410

I do this with the Shotgunner that has shot a lot of shotguns in his day, but that detached retina, back surgery, - whatever - has them a bit "not sure".

We are Learning, we are not concerned with Championships, Hunting, or Defensive use, we are learning , one step at a time.

.410 has a place all right.

sm · July 28, 2006, 12:00 AM

Placeholder

sm · July 28, 2006, 12:02 AM

Another placeholder

kudu · July 28, 2006, 05:05 PM

!!Amen!!

maas · July 29, 2006, 12:02 AM

i like the .410 but the ammos spendy. i wanted to buy the lever action winchester version but there dun for now.

PATH · August 6, 2006, 01:40 AM

Hmmmm! I have never owned a .410. I just may get one!

Doubletaptap · August 6, 2006, 04:05 AM

For those that love the 410 you should take a look at the Snake Charmer.Or the NEF Handi-Rifle.
Also a 45LC is the same size as a 410 and some new guns will shoot both.
The Winchester 9410 is around at gunbroker.com and gunsamerica.You just have to catch them when they come up for sale.
The 28 gauge will shoot a .530 ball with a .020" patch if it is a black powder gun.
The 410 is a handy gauge for small game and birds, and blasting BG's out of your house.They're also a hoot to try and trap and skeet shoot with!!!
Wally world or Academy sells shells cheap.At least they do here.

July 27, 2006, 09:59 PM	#1
sm Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2002 Posts: 1,819	.410 – what about it? .410 – what about it? Did you know if you take that 2 ½” .410 target load of ½ oz #9 hard shot, and a 12 gauge, 1 oz target load of #9 hard shot, and fire them both from Skeet choked guns, from same distance, at a pattern board -the patterns are the same size ? “Matter of bore – not choke” – Brister. Yep, sure will. One can take the same loads, and shoot from same chokes, be it Improved Cylinder, Modified, and Full, same thing happens - .410 will be the same size as the 12 bore. Twenty Eight gauge has been discussed, the payload to bore is like no other. It really is better than it is supposed to be. Check any tote board at any Skeet Club and you can read for yourself. “Little Critter” , this 28 ga, is better that it is supposed to be. Check that tote board for the “Littlest Critter” – the .410. This will also reveal this is the most difficult of the four guns to shoot well in Skeet. I’m going to standardize the four guns used in Skeet to try and keep matters simple. All this transitions for other clay games, hunting and even more serious situations Gauges 12, 20, 28 and .410;with respected target loads of 1 oz, 7/8 oz, 3/4oz and ½ oz. Number of pellets per ounce: #9, # 8.5, #8 and # 7.5 being 585, 500, 410, and 350 respectfully. All loads at 1200 feet per second (fps) Remember, there is a lot of “Art and Science” to shotguns and their loadings. We have discussed this quite a bit, the archives have a lot of information. I suggest a search using Dave McC ,check his sticky's , and those that have read “Shotgunning: The Art And Science “ know exactly where I am going. If that .410 tosses the same size pattern as a 12 bore, then why are the scores on the tote board as they are? Why does one miss a dove, quail, even a more stationary target such as a squirrel with a .410 ? Take a tennis ball, or a clay target and to both targets fired by the .410 and 12 bore. Pattern density is the answer. Tennis ball or clay to represent a target held up will reveal “holes” in the pattern. You can place the tennis ball or clay onto the pattern board to see this. Remember as well not all pellets arrive at the same time. .28 gauge are known for “shorter shot strings” , .410s typically have” longer shot strings” You missed – even being on target , one misses because the target literally flew thru the hole of the .410 pattern. That squirrel, just sitting there, got lucky, “hole shot” - pellets did not hit. Twenty eight gauge, with short shot strings, payload to bore, and all the Art & Science, hits and fells with authority! __________________ Use Enough Gun TFL Alumni

July 27, 2006, 10:10 PM	#2
sm Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2002 Posts: 1,819	.410 – what about it? - II This is why a .410 is not the best choice to start a new shooter on. New shooters need self esteem and confidence in breaking targets. The 28 gauge is a better gun to start off a new shooter. Less felt recoil, hits with authority, and the self confidence soars, and we have another shooter hooked on Responsible Firearm Ownership. From here we have gained another to assist in many areas we believe in, as respresented by TFL Mission statement. "But the 28 ga ammo is expensive..." "I'll have to get into reloading perhaps..." Hey, investing in a kid, new shooter, is worth the money. One cannot put a value on a kid, new shooter, especially when one takes into account the return in investment by being involved with hunting , legal and political , voting, and the list goes on. Turn off a shooter, as some do with whopper loads to laugh at new folks and we ALL lose. One can never place the total value of a negative experience. Now that I have laid the ground work for some new folks, hopefully some with kids being "wiggle-worms" near the monitor... About that .410... __________________ Use Enough Gun TFL Alumni

July 27, 2006, 11:35 PM	#3
sm Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2002 Posts: 1,819	.410 – what about it? - III Littlest Critters are cute! Neat too! ...Uncle Steve said my "cute" gun ...and he said my "neat" gun All right "wiggle-wart" and "wiggle-worm" , I said it. So quit driving Mom nuts and wearing out Granpa's knees. -- Teaching. Relearning. Fun Factor. Improving Skills and Focus. - One can learn lots of lessons by using a BB gun. See Brister's book , this it what I have done forever. I do this with small kids, teenager's, adults and even the elderly. Then I transition to a 28 ga if can - if not I do use a single shot .410 . I use the .410 for special reasons, circumstance, and have methods. -Some folks due to injuries, such as detached retinas , shoulder surgery, back surgery are under Doctor's Orders to not shoot due to recoil causing more serious damage. At such time, the Doctor says it is okay to shoot again, soft recoil is mandated. .22 rifles are most often suggested first. Shotguns are allowed - sometimes, eventually, and really light recoil means a .410. This might mean a whole lot to someone really wanting to dove hunt / squirrel with a Kid, like a parent, or grandparent. Some matters one cannot put a price tag on. Maybe just hitting tin cans, or portable trap thrower on the farm with a kid, spouse, you name it. -Little kids not big enough to actually hold or shoot by themselves, can still learn about shotguns, and loads. A kid is nothing more than a smaller sized human being, that has not lived as long as others. Kids have the same rights as everyone else , the COTUS and BoR says so. Responsible adults , parents just do the reponsible thing and pass forward. Kids are not stupid, if you share with a kid, all about the .410, the loads and everything, they will understand. Answer all questions. Make it fun. I often use popcorn kernals to replace lead pellets. Another thing I and others have done forever. With a kid, observing all safety rules, shoot at a farm pond with paper on the other side. They see the holes in the paper, pellets richochet off water. Kids remember this, just as they do the .22 short exploding a can of soda. Little stuff is dangerous too. No matter how cute, neat, or small, the safety lessons need to be instilled , and reminded often. Little kids, slap the trigger while I hold the gun, we break balloons, or shoot paper. Tad bigger kids, with help, and some have to put even a kids stock under arm ,to shoot. They learn about patterns. If they want to connect the "dots" and draw a picture, watercolor it too, well why not? I can do this too. So much negative in Media, Schools and all, being a part of a Positve, Responsible Firearm experience is again an investment in our future. That kid, will understand they are not big enough to shoot a shotgun by themselves. They understand the .410 is not as effective as a 28, 20 or 12, because we walked out after shooting a patterne board and let them hold tennis balls, clay targets and even pictures of doves, squirrels , rabbits, and quail to "see why one misses". I know 5 year olds that know more about pattering than adults. Kids will understand for the time being, that BB gun, and .22 rifle is "their size" and is okay to learn those skills for now. Human beings, no matter size, just want to be treated like a human being with respect and courtesy. Answer questions, let them see, and they understand the reasons something is not right for them. NEVER just "stick" a .410 single shot in a kid's hands and go "here kid, here is a shotgun" Now the kid has been talked down to , feels like a kid, with a kid's gun, and when they miss, they feel low self esteem and rotten. "Yuck, what a rotten experince, this gun stuff is stupid and no fun, maybe the Teacher / TV was right, all gun owners are jerks!" How many more kids is this kid going to share that rotten experience with? Some day this kid is going to be of age to vote, how will that rotten experience influence his voting? -- Now I and other have worked with Ladies and Gents, all ages, brought up in Anti-gun familes. Those folks that have been a victim of a firearm in some way. I have worked with battered women, traumatized by a firearm, sexually assaulted, or raped..or... Folks from totally clueless to scared to death of a .410 shotgun. Gain the trust. Again as I have shared before, I de-prime a hull, re-prime it, and nothing else. Safety is paramount, and a big part of this safety is knowing I am NOT going to do anything to hurt, scare or frighten them. Four Rules of Safety, they get to see how the gun actually works and hear and feel a "bang". That double ear protection lessens felt recoil. Having taken the single shot apart, letting them see, feel ask however many questions , no matter how many times, and then the gun was actually "worked" and "fired". Again, I do not care and have used , who knows how many rounds of nothing but primer only shotshells, including .410 I do this with the Shotgunner that has shot a lot of shotguns in his day, but that detached retina, back surgery, - whatever - has them a bit "not sure". We are Learning, we are not concerned with Championships, Hunting, or Defensive use, we are learning , one step at a time. .410 has a place all right. __________________ Use Enough Gun TFL Alumni

July 28, 2006, 12:00 AM	#4
sm Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2002 Posts: 1,819	Placeholder __________________ Use Enough Gun TFL Alumni

July 28, 2006, 12:02 AM	#5
sm Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2002 Posts: 1,819	Another placeholder __________________ Use Enough Gun TFL Alumni

July 28, 2006, 05:05 PM	#6
kudu Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 273	*!!Amen!!* __________________ "a shootin' we will go"

July 29, 2006, 12:02 AM	#7
maas Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2005 Location: The state of Jefferson Posts: 897	i like the .410 but the ammos spendy. i wanted to buy the lever action winchester version but there dun for now. __________________ I don't try to offend....some times i get lucky! There's always one thing that makes Republicans look good on election day...........Democrats!

August 6, 2006, 01:40 AM	#8
PATH Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 1999 Location: Rockland, NY Posts: 1,489	Hmmmm! I have never owned a .410. I just may get one! __________________ For sure it is an evil spite, and breaking to the heart, For Irishmen to watch a fight and not be taking part. -Robert Service 'How MacPherson Held The Floor'

August 6, 2006, 04:05 AM	#9
Doubletaptap Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2006 Location: Around north Houston Posts: 287	For those that love the 410 you should take a look at the Snake Charmer.Or the NEF Handi-Rifle. Also a 45LC is the same size as a 410 and some new guns will shoot both. The Winchester 9410 is around at gunbroker.com and gunsamerica.You just have to catch them when they come up for sale. The 28 gauge will shoot a .530 ball with a .020" patch if it is a black powder gun. The 410 is a handy gauge for small game and birds, and blasting BG's out of your house.They're also a hoot to try and trap and skeet shoot with!!! Wally world or Academy sells shells cheap.At least they do here. __________________ Don't believe the hype!!!