George, want to weigh in on something?

**Mike Irwin** · February 14, 2001, 11:20 AM

Over in semi-autos I posted a thread about how often to replace the mainspring in my Springfield MilSpec .45.

Pretty much what I expected, advice wise, until George Hesler showed up.

I, and others, had a similar discussion with him on the old Compuserve Firearms Forum.

He claims essentially that action springs are good for life, no matter how the gun is used, and that if a spring does need to be replaced, it's because the spring was not up to specification from the manufacturer.

You've been a gunsmith for a long time. How about weighing in?

James K · February 14, 2001, 11:38 AM

I'm not George, but if I may comment, I have several WWII Model 1911A1s including one I have fired thousands of GI or equivalent rounds, plus several hundred very hot "pin" rounds with 255 grain Colt bullets and too much Unique. All the guns still have their original springs and all function fine. I think that 1) they really don't make springs like they used to, and 2) spring replacement is just another topic for people who want to tinker rather than shoot. (Another "pet peeve" of mine is full length recoil spring guides, which, IMHO, are useful only for making the seller rich.)

This does NOT mean that a recoil spring that no longer does its job should not be replaced, and there is a point (x thousands of rounds?) where that will occur. But changing springs every couple of hundred rounds, as I have seen advocated, is nonsense. (If my name were Wolff, I would feel differently!)

Jim

John Lawson · February 14, 2001, 01:46 PM

The mainspring is the hammer spring. The long one underr the barrel is the recoil spring.
I have worked on many (thousands) of 1911 pistols from WW-I and earlier to date.
There were very few times that a hammer spr8ing (mainspring) had to be changed. Often, it was changed to accommodate the shooter's desires because he carried the pistol with a loaded chamber and the hammer down. I have never observed an early 1911 that failed to ignite the primer with the original hammer spring. Some were fairly weak, but none that I worked on, if of original length, i.e. not clipped by the shooter, failed to ignite a primer.
The recoil spring is another story. Most of the old timeers from the Great War didn't believe in changing anything, and many frames were badly battered by weakened recoil springs.
Look for yourself. This kind of mayhem leaves a distinctive mark from the spring guide.
Many of the frequent recoil spring changes are done under a cover story, to prevent the competition from realizing that special loads are being used for different courses of fire.
Some professional shooters change springs because they want to go into a match or out onto the street with everything in pristine condition. These folks are possibly compulsive/obcessive, but their equipment is in top shape.
Full length spring guides are necessary when a pistol is equipped with a bull barrel. All of mine are. The added weight at the muzzle allows fast double and triple taps and I prefer the extra weight to a compensator for street carry, duty carry and general use. The compensator has its place.
The hard variety of buffer will prevent damage to the frame if a recoil spring loses its tension, or if heavier loads are fired. Obviously, one has to check it every time the pistol is cleaned and they should be replaced if bashed down. I have used the soft variety before the hard ones were introdlluced, and never had a problem. Hey, the cost is only pennies, and they come in multiple packs. I always keep several packs with my cleaning kit.
I have a device to hold recoil springs and a scale (from Brownells) and I check every recoil spring in every pistol that comes into my shop. Those not up to spec get changed.
As for the full length guide rods used with standard barrels, they have a tactical advantage if the pistol clangs like a cowbell when moved from side to side. They were designed to be used with the early style compensators. On uncompensated pistols, they don't do any harm. If you have to press-check to determine if your pistol is loaded, you don't follow the rules. Every gun is loaded, remember? It is easier (and safer) to grasp the slide in the "fanning" grip and slightly open it to determine whether there is a case in the chamber. (fired case/broken extractor on the last round) If you have to press check you are also probably compulsive/obcessive.

**Mike Irwin** · February 14, 2001, 01:58 PM

John,

Sorry, I'm too used to revolver. Recoil spring, not main spring.

George Stringer · February 15, 2001, 08:15 AM

Mike, Jim pretty much said it. My father's WWII era Remington Rand 1911 has never had a spring replaced. I can't count or even estimate the thousands of rounds that have been put through that pistol and it's never had anything replaced. On the lower end of the time spectrum my carry gun is 15 years old and I've never replaced the springs in it. It has roughly 25,000 rounds through it. In my opinion George Hessler is correct. George

**Mike Irwin** · February 15, 2001, 11:50 AM

George,

Very interesting.

I guess the American Society of Mechanical Engineers is all wet, then.

Sorry, George, I don't buy it.

Ledbetter · February 15, 2001, 01:25 PM

Wouldn't a spring gauge and a ruler be helpful in measuring whether your 1911 recoil spring is still 18 lbs. and however many inches long it's supposed to be? I replace mine if they look deformed or seem weak.

**Mal H** · February 15, 2001, 03:18 PM

Mike, if I may use an analogy here - how often do you need to replace the valve springs in your car's engine? It's not the amount of usage that will "wear out" a spring, it is the amount of mis-usage.

johnwill · February 15, 2001, 08:39 PM

Mal H, I've used the valve spring example almost every time the topic of magazine springs wearing out from being loaded comes up. OTOH, the difference that I see in recoil springs is they do take a more severe beating, so I suspect that they do have a finite life that you may well reach at some point. I doubt it's the 1000-1500 rounds that I see many people recommending, but I've replaced the spring in my Springfield after about 5000 rounds downrange, and it did help with an occasional FTF.

**Mike Irwin** · February 16, 2001, 12:34 AM

Mal,

Considering that I had the valve job done at roughly 136,000 miles, the car has the original engine, original owner, still gets over 30 to the gallon on the highway, and doesn't burn oil.

Do I rabbit start by popping the clutch? Nope.

Do I run the RPMs up to 10,000 in first gear? Nope.

Do I run it in 5th gear at 15 MPH? Nope.

Do I change oil every 3K miles? Yep.

The vast majority of the miles that I've put on that car have come in DC Metro driving.

I'd say the amount of abuse on my car is about 0.

That's the same with my 1911. I fire mil-spec. ammo out of it. I've put maybe 10 rounds of +P ammo through it. Everything else has been at bowling pins.

**Mal H** · February 16, 2001, 01:29 AM

Precisely my point, Mike. You haven't abused your car and your valve springs have lasted a long, long time. They have compressed for far more cycles than a guns recoil spring would in 5 lifetimes. If a gun isn't abused, then the recoil spring should last a long time. Far longer than a few thousand rounds.

ps - did you replace the valves and valve springs or only have the valves lapped and or adjusted?

George Stringer · February 16, 2001, 08:08 AM

Mike, I didn't say anybody was all wet and I'm not trying to sell you anything. You asked for my opinion and I gave it to you. If you feel you need to change springs every 2000 rounds to keep your pistol reliable then by all means do so. I just don't think it's necessary. George

**Mike Irwin** · February 16, 2001, 12:12 PM

Mal,

You're reading too much into my post.

I, too, don't think that 2,000 is a necessary replacement point for springs, but at the same time I do NOT agree with the assessment that springs last forever no matter what, and neither does ASME.

WalterGAII · February 17, 2001, 12:18 AM

So, you guys think that the physics/technology engineering for valve springs is analogous to 1911 recoil springs??

As wise as that sounds, it is, of course, just not so.

Understanding that Wolff is in the business of selling springs, they still give a pretty cogent guideline as to when springs need to be replaced. That might be due to spring fatigue or for the use of different loads.

I don't change recoil springs just for the joy of changing recoil springs, but do change them to accomodate the various loads that I shoot. If you're 1911 is throwing brass into the next county, it's a pretty safe bet that you need a new and/or stronger recoil spring.

**Mal H** · February 17, 2001, 01:13 AM

Walter, changing a recoil spring to accomodate different loads is not the issue.

I still say the valve spring analogy is applicable. Any spring which is compressed up to its design point and then released in a reasonable time will not "wear out". Springs such as magazine springs can lose some of their "springiness" (the spring constant changes) if left loaded for a very long time. Whether that actually makes the magazine fail is another matter, it might or it might not.

When an engine is left dormant for a very long time, some of the valve springs (and other springs) can change since some are left in a compressed state and some are relatively uncompressed.

You'll notice that I said a spring that is mis-used can change. Leaving a spring in a fully compressed state for a long time is mis-using it as is compressing it beyond its design point or flexing it at an elevated temperature (beyond its design temp range).

February 14, 2001, 11:20 AM	#1
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Over in semi-autos I posted a thread about how often to replace the mainspring in my Springfield MilSpec .45. Pretty much what I expected, advice wise, until George Hesler showed up. I, and others, had a similar discussion with him on the old Compuserve Firearms Forum. He claims essentially that action springs are good for life, no matter how the gun is used, and that if a spring does need to be replaced, it's because the spring was not up to specification from the manufacturer. You've been a gunsmith for a long time. How about weighing in? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 14, 2001, 01:46 PM	#3
John Lawson Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 1999 Posts: 281	Mainspring? The mainspring is the hammer spring. The long one underr the barrel is the recoil spring. I have worked on many (thousands) of 1911 pistols from WW-I and earlier to date. There were very few times that a hammer spr8ing (mainspring) had to be changed. Often, it was changed to accommodate the shooter's desires because he carried the pistol with a loaded chamber and the hammer down. I have never observed an early 1911 that failed to ignite the primer with the original hammer spring. Some were fairly weak, but none that I worked on, if of original length, i.e. not clipped by the shooter, failed to ignite a primer. The recoil spring is another story. Most of the old timeers from the Great War didn't believe in changing anything, and many frames were badly battered by weakened recoil springs. Look for yourself. This kind of mayhem leaves a distinctive mark from the spring guide. Many of the frequent recoil spring changes are done under a cover story, to prevent the competition from realizing that special loads are being used for different courses of fire. Some professional shooters change springs because they want to go into a match or out onto the street with everything in pristine condition. These folks are possibly compulsive/obcessive, but their equipment is in top shape. Full length spring guides are necessary when a pistol is equipped with a bull barrel. All of mine are. The added weight at the muzzle allows fast double and triple taps and I prefer the extra weight to a compensator for street carry, duty carry and general use. The compensator has its place. The hard variety of buffer will prevent damage to the frame if a recoil spring loses its tension, or if heavier loads are fired. Obviously, one has to check it every time the pistol is cleaned and they should be replaced if bashed down. I have used the soft variety before the hard ones were introdlluced, and never had a problem. Hey, the cost is only pennies, and they come in multiple packs. I always keep several packs with my cleaning kit. I have a device to hold recoil springs and a scale (from Brownells) and I check every recoil spring in every pistol that comes into my shop. Those not up to spec get changed. As for the full length guide rods used with standard barrels, they have a tactical advantage if the pistol clangs like a cowbell when moved from side to side. They were designed to be used with the early style compensators. On uncompensated pistols, they don't do any harm. If you have to press-check to determine if your pistol is loaded, you don't follow the rules. Every gun is loaded, remember? It is easier (and safer) to grasp the slide in the "fanning" grip and slightly open it to determine whether there is a case in the chamber. (fired case/broken extractor on the last round) If you have to press check you are also probably compulsive/obcessive.

February 15, 2001, 11:50 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	George, Very interesting. I guess the American Society of Mechanical Engineers is all wet, then. Sorry, George, I don't buy it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 15, 2001, 01:25 PM	#7
Ledbetter Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2000 Location: California USA Posts: 4,533	Empirical proof Wouldn't a spring gauge and a ruler be helpful in measuring whether your 1911 recoil spring is still 18 lbs. and however many inches long it's supposed to be? I replace mine if they look deformed or seem weak.

February 16, 2001, 12:34 AM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Mal, Considering that I had the valve job done at roughly 136,000 miles, the car has the original engine, original owner, still gets over 30 to the gallon on the highway, and doesn't burn oil. Do I rabbit start by popping the clutch? Nope. Do I run the RPMs up to 10,000 in first gear? Nope. Do I run it in 5th gear at 15 MPH? Nope. Do I change oil every 3K miles? Yep. The vast majority of the miles that I've put on that car have come in DC Metro driving. I'd say the amount of abuse on my car is about 0. That's the same with my 1911. I fire mil-spec. ammo out of it. I've put maybe 10 rounds of +P ammo through it. Everything else has been at bowling pins. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 14, 2001, 11:38 AM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I'm not George, but if I may comment, I have several WWII Model 1911A1s including one I have fired thousands of GI or equivalent rounds, plus several hundred very hot "pin" rounds with 255 grain Colt bullets and too much Unique. All the guns still have their original springs and all function fine. I think that 1) they really don't make springs like they used to, and 2) spring replacement is just another topic for people who want to tinker rather than shoot. (Another "pet peeve" of mine is full length recoil spring guides, which, IMHO, are useful only for making the seller rich.) This does NOT mean that a recoil spring that no longer does its job should not be replaced, and there is a point (x thousands of rounds?) where that will occur. But changing springs every couple of hundred rounds, as I have seen advocated, is nonsense. (If my name were Wolff, I would feel differently!) Jim

February 14, 2001, 01:58 PM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	John, Sorry, I'm too used to revolver. Recoil spring, not main spring.

February 15, 2001, 08:15 AM	#5
George Stringer Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Earlington KY Posts: 2,299	Mike, Jim pretty much said it. My father's WWII era Remington Rand 1911 has never had a spring replaced. I can't count or even estimate the thousands of rounds that have been put through that pistol and it's never had anything replaced. On the lower end of the time spectrum my carry gun is 15 years old and I've never replaced the springs in it. It has roughly 25,000 rounds through it. In my opinion George Hessler is correct. George

February 15, 2001, 03:18 PM	#8
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,947	Mike, if I may use an analogy here - how often do you need to replace the valve springs in your car's engine? It's not the amount of usage that will "wear out" a spring, it is the amount of mis-usage.

February 15, 2001, 08:39 PM	#9
johnwill Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2000 Location: PA Posts: 3,451	Mal H, I've used the valve spring example almost every time the topic of magazine springs wearing out from being loaded comes up. OTOH, the difference that I see in recoil springs is they do take a more severe beating, so I suspect that they do have a finite life that you may well reach at some point. I doubt it's the 1000-1500 rounds that I see many people recommending, but I've replaced the spring in my Springfield after about 5000 rounds downrange, and it did help with an occasional FTF.

February 16, 2001, 01:29 AM	#11
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,947	Precisely my point, Mike. You haven't abused your car and your valve springs have lasted a long, long time. They have compressed for far more cycles than a guns recoil spring would in 5 lifetimes. If a gun isn't abused, then the recoil spring should last a long time. Far longer than a few thousand rounds. ps - did you replace the valves and valve springs or only have the valves lapped and or adjusted?

February 16, 2001, 08:08 AM	#12
George Stringer Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Earlington KY Posts: 2,299	Mike, I didn't say anybody was all wet and I'm not trying to sell you anything. You asked for my opinion and I gave it to you. If you feel you need to change springs every 2000 rounds to keep your pistol reliable then by all means do so. I just don't think it's necessary. George

February 16, 2001, 12:12 PM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Mal, You're reading too much into my post. I, too, don't think that 2,000 is a necessary replacement point for springs, but at the same time I do NOT agree with the assessment that springs last forever no matter what, and neither does ASME. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 17, 2001, 12:18 AM	#14
WalterGAII Junior member Join Date: November 7, 1999 Posts: 1,516	So, you guys think that the physics/technology engineering for valve springs is analogous to 1911 recoil springs?? As wise as that sounds, it is, of course, just not so. Understanding that Wolff is in the business of selling springs, they still give a pretty cogent guideline as to when springs need to be replaced. That might be due to spring fatigue or for the use of different loads. I don't change recoil springs just for the joy of changing recoil springs, but do change them to accomodate the various loads that I shoot. If you're 1911 is throwing brass into the next county, it's a pretty safe bet that you need a new and/or stronger recoil spring.

February 17, 2001, 01:13 AM	#15
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,947	Walter, changing a recoil spring to accomodate different loads is not the issue. I still say the valve spring analogy is applicable. Any spring which is compressed up to its design point and then released in a reasonable time will not "wear out". Springs such as magazine springs can lose some of their "springiness" (the spring constant changes) if left loaded for a very long time. Whether that actually makes the magazine fail is another matter, it might or it might not. When an engine is left dormant for a very long time, some of the valve springs (and other springs) can change since some are left in a compressed state and some are relatively uncompressed. You'll notice that I said a spring that is mis-used can change. Leaving a spring in a fully compressed state for a long time is mis-using it as is compressing it beyond its design point or flexing it at an elevated temperature (beyond its design temp range).