Opinions sought to prepare and fight against home invaders.

SB · August 29, 1999, 12:10 AM

I would like to entertain the worst-case scenario for home invasion. Let's say the Home Invasion Team (HIT for short) is a four-man crew armed with AK-47s, back-up pistols and KA-BAR knives. The HIT will attempt to enter your household with the intention of rape, pillage, and murder. For this scenario, you don't know when they will hit, but you do have all the time you need to prepare.

Note: While the HIT is capable of SWAT-like tactics, the HIT is not SWAT. For the given scenario, they will not have explosive devices such as flashbangs (or grenades). They will not have ballistic helmets, vests, or shields. They won't have use of armor vehicles or helicopters either. Snipers are left out as well.

I know it's a very broad question. Here are some variables to consider but feel free to add your own: (Incidentally, a "defender" is someone who is able to fight back while a "principle" isn't.)

I. Number and make-up of occupants.

1. 1 defender.
2. 1 defender and 1 principle.
3. 2 defenders and 1 principle.
4. 2 defenders and 2 principles.

II. Time of day.

1. Broad daylight.
2. Night time with power available.
3. Night time without power.

III. Dwelling.

1. A rural ranch.
2. A suburban house.
3. A condo or apartment.

IV. Fortification.

1. Doors.
2. Windows.
3. Hallways.
4. Bedrooms.

V. Locations for encounter

1. Frontyard/backyard.
2. Hallway.
3. Bedrooms.

VI. Weapons and accessories

1. On your person.
2. Within accessible reach.

How would you prepare? What would you use? What is your plan of defense? What would you do?

Due to the sensitive nature of the topic, I am willing to converse over e-mail if you prefer.

[This message has been edited by SB (edited August 29, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by SB (edited August 29, 1999).]

Jer Batson · August 29, 1999, 08:29 AM

I can't address all scenarieos, so i will address one I can relate to ...

1 defender and 1 principle
Night time with or without power
Suburban Colonial (2 story)
Within Reach (Glock 40, Mossberg 12 ga. w/ 9 shots, Bushmaster stubby .223 w/several 30 round mags)

Hopefully this will occur when we are in upstairs bedroom, or given the time to, retreat there.

I will be to deny access to the second floor by making the stairwell a "free fire zone." Using the 12 gage w/ .00 buck, fireing without any warning or challange. Backed up with the .223 and finally the Glock with .40 Fedral Hydroshocks.

Controlling access to the second level using maximum firepower available.

I have approximatly 150 (12 ga) to 500 (.223/.40) rounds per weapon, including 250 rounds of .44 magnum for my Desert Eagle. All ammunition and weapons are stored upstairs other than the Glock being worn in home with 10 Hydroshocks in magazine.

If necessary, principle could use the Glock to back me up.

------------------
"Self Control ... Not Gun Control."

[This message has been edited by Jer Batson (edited August 29, 1999).]

Dorcas · September 1, 1999, 08:01 PM

SB,

Do you realize you've created 864 possible scenarios?

bkm

------------------
Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...

**Rich Lucibella** · September 1, 1999, 08:10 PM

Dorcas-
If my memory of stats serves me well (and this is seldom) the resultant scenarios are far greater than the multiplier would indicate. Aren't we supposed to be using Factorials or some such?
Rich

Ruger · September 1, 1999, 10:24 PM

ok, I'll handle one scenerio since it involves my house, and I believe in the KISS principle. Country house, nearest neighbor 200yds away, trailer house(rental), thick brush out the back door 10yds away with a large natural ditch. From the ditch to the house I can shoot straight in without worry of a stray bullet hurting anyone not needing to be hurt. My always constant companion is a ruger p-85 with three 15 rd clips all loaded with Corbons or hydra shoks. In my room nearest the door to the brush are a rem. 870 loaded with #4 buck and slugs, stagger loaded, and a .270 winchester along with whatever guns happen to be around that room. Hopefully after this weekend the .270 will reside in a gun case and a mini-14 take it's place.

Our escape plan is as follows, after the dogs alert us to danger or if we hear the screaming of said smucks from very big dog bites, we decide on a course of action, it's my wife and I, she only shoots as a last resort(I'm down or dead) Our prefered place is to stay inside and fight it out from the laundry room attached to our bedroom, protected on the front door side by a refrigerator and a stove, the other by washer and dryer. From this position I can shoot in the direction of any points of entry. I'm going to assume that at least one thug is down from dog bites, I own to many dogs for em to get em all. That leaves three to deal with. My options become this, fight or flee to fight. My personel choice would be to turn out to the direction of the attackers, and try to remove as many as possible. After the first shots, move outside after shutting the door to the room, and take cover in the ditch. From this ditch you have one option, come straight at me right down a path or leave. If you come down the path you'll die. It's bordered by 7 acres of cactus and blackbrush. The path is a killing zone. From the ditch my wife can travel down it to the neighbors 200yds away, it runs next to their house. From there she can call the police. At this point my plan deals more with containment, from the northwest corner of my house I can cover all exits. They may still be in my house, but they aren't leaving. If the dogs are still alive they will flush remaining thugs out of the house to a waiting gun, if not I simply sit back and wait for the police to arrive from my wifes call. thats the basic plan, but it's like this, you can't plan for every situation, so you practice and pray that if it happens you have the brainpower to react to it.

I shoot a min. of 15 rds per day through my p-85, and about 20 rds a week through the .270, plus about 20 through the shotgun per week.

------------------
Live Free or Die Trying,

Steve

Rob62 · September 6, 1999, 08:41 PM

SB, you ask one heck of a compound question don't ya. First suggestion, read Army FM (Field Manual) 90-10 and 90-10-1 with change 1. They are the Army's bible(s)when it comes to Urban Warfare or MOUT in Army speak. Don't think they are restricted so they should be available over the net on the Army publication site. Depending on the training and motivation of your "HIT" your in BIG trouble. This definately sounds sounds like a loose/loose scenario. You'd be lucky to take them with you. But there are tons of things that you can do to give you a more level playing field. By reading the above mentioned FM's you'll learn a lot. Certainly more than I can impart on this topic here.

Second and a shorter answer, do everything you can to "Strongpoint" or harden your residence. Use solid core doors with deadbolt locks, reinforce the door jambs (unbelievable how many people get super strong doors and never think about the jambs). Bars on windows are nice, but they work both ways, keeping you in while others out. Have positive communications with local Police agency, cell phones work well, but test it from your safe room, and have a spare charged battery handy. Dogs are a great first line of defense (early alarm) and so on and so on.

There's just too much stuff in your topic to address adequately.

Rob

RKBA!

------------------
It's amazing what a large group of stupid people can accomplish.
-----------------

David Schmidbauer · September 6, 1999, 08:57 PM

GOOD Question(s)! However, having already though about such a scenario I choose not to post my "answers" on a public forum.

Lets just say I've got it figured out and leave it at that.

Schmit, GySgt USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201 - UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
"Molon labe"

[This message has been edited by David Schmidbauer (edited September 06, 1999).]

SB · September 7, 1999, 02:00 PM

Thank you for the replies so far. Again, I understand the sensitive nature of this question. And again, if it makes you folks more comfortable, I invite you to e-mail it to me instead. No need for specifics on how and where you've placed or done this or that. Just in generalities are fine, and as much as you feel comfortable in giving out.

pete80 · September 8, 1999, 04:39 PM

Grab your gear and set fire to the homestead, I like the Russian's old "Torched Earth" tactic! Burn the goods before the bad guys can get to it or in a better case, out of it!

Your triumphant victory over 4 well armed and well trained criminals is short lived. You will perish in a stand up gun fight against those odds. Your best bet is to call the call the police, get every one out and get the hell away from that place. But if you have to fight...

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August 29, 1999, 12:10 AM	#1
SB Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 1998 Posts: 415	I would like to entertain the worst-case scenario for home invasion. Let's say the Home Invasion Team (HIT for short) is a four-man crew armed with AK-47s, back-up pistols and KA-BAR knives. The HIT will attempt to enter your household with the intention of rape, pillage, and murder. For this scenario, you don't know when they will hit, but you do have all the time you need to prepare. Note: While the HIT is capable of SWAT-like tactics, the HIT is not SWAT. For the given scenario, they will not have explosive devices such as flashbangs (or grenades). They will not have ballistic helmets, vests, or shields. They won't have use of armor vehicles or helicopters either. Snipers are left out as well. I know it's a very broad question. Here are some variables to consider but feel free to add your own: (Incidentally, a "defender" is someone who is able to fight back while a "principle" isn't.) I. Number and make-up of occupants. 1. 1 defender. 2. 1 defender and 1 principle. 3. 2 defenders and 1 principle. 4. 2 defenders and 2 principles. II. Time of day. 1. Broad daylight. 2. Night time with power available. 3. Night time without power. III. Dwelling. 1. A rural ranch. 2. A suburban house. 3. A condo or apartment. IV. Fortification. 1. Doors. 2. Windows. 3. Hallways. 4. Bedrooms. V. Locations for encounter 1. Frontyard/backyard. 2. Hallway. 3. Bedrooms. VI. Weapons and accessories 1. On your person. 2. Within accessible reach. How would you prepare? What would you use? What is your plan of defense? What would you do? Due to the sensitive nature of the topic, I am willing to converse over e-mail if you prefer. [This message has been edited by SB (edited August 29, 1999).] [This message has been edited by SB (edited August 29, 1999).]

August 29, 1999, 08:29 AM	#2
Jer Batson Junior Member Join Date: August 27, 1999 Posts: 1	I can't address all scenarieos, so i will address one I can relate to ... 1 defender and 1 principle Night time with or without power Suburban Colonial (2 story) Within Reach (Glock 40, Mossberg 12 ga. w/ 9 shots, Bushmaster stubby .223 w/several 30 round mags) Hopefully this will occur when we are in upstairs bedroom, or given the time to, retreat there. I will be to deny access to the second floor by making the stairwell a "free fire zone." Using the 12 gage w/ .00 buck, fireing without any warning or challange. Backed up with the .223 and finally the Glock with .40 Fedral Hydroshocks. Controlling access to the second level using maximum firepower available. I have approximatly 150 (12 ga) to 500 (.223/.40) rounds per weapon, including 250 rounds of .44 magnum for my Desert Eagle. All ammunition and weapons are stored upstairs other than the Glock being worn in home with 10 Hydroshocks in magazine. If necessary, principle could use the Glock to back me up. ------------------ "Self Control ... Not Gun Control." [This message has been edited by Jer Batson (edited August 29, 1999).]

September 1, 1999, 08:01 PM	#3
Dorcas Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 1999 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 194	SB, Do you realize you've created 864 possible scenarios? bkm ------------------ Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...

September 1, 1999, 08:10 PM	#4
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Dorcas- If my memory of stats serves me well (and this is seldom) the resultant scenarios are far greater than the multiplier would indicate. Aren't we supposed to be using Factorials or some such? Rich

September 1, 1999, 10:24 PM	#5
Ruger Junior member Join Date: August 30, 1999 Posts: 56	ok, I'll handle one scenerio since it involves my house, and I believe in the KISS principle. Country house, nearest neighbor 200yds away, trailer house(rental), thick brush out the back door 10yds away with a large natural ditch. From the ditch to the house I can shoot straight in without worry of a stray bullet hurting anyone not needing to be hurt. My always constant companion is a ruger p-85 with three 15 rd clips all loaded with Corbons or hydra shoks. In my room nearest the door to the brush are a rem. 870 loaded with #4 buck and slugs, stagger loaded, and a .270 winchester along with whatever guns happen to be around that room. Hopefully after this weekend the .270 will reside in a gun case and a mini-14 take it's place. Our escape plan is as follows, after the dogs alert us to danger or if we hear the screaming of said smucks from very big dog bites, we decide on a course of action, it's my wife and I, she only shoots as a last resort(I'm down or dead) Our prefered place is to stay inside and fight it out from the laundry room attached to our bedroom, protected on the front door side by a refrigerator and a stove, the other by washer and dryer. From this position I can shoot in the direction of any points of entry. I'm going to assume that at least one thug is down from dog bites, I own to many dogs for em to get em all. That leaves three to deal with. My options become this, fight or flee to fight. My personel choice would be to turn out to the direction of the attackers, and try to remove as many as possible. After the first shots, move outside after shutting the door to the room, and take cover in the ditch. From this ditch you have one option, come straight at me right down a path or leave. If you come down the path you'll die. It's bordered by 7 acres of cactus and blackbrush. The path is a killing zone. From the ditch my wife can travel down it to the neighbors 200yds away, it runs next to their house. From there she can call the police. At this point my plan deals more with containment, from the northwest corner of my house I can cover all exits. They may still be in my house, but they aren't leaving. If the dogs are still alive they will flush remaining thugs out of the house to a waiting gun, if not I simply sit back and wait for the police to arrive from my wifes call. thats the basic plan, but it's like this, you can't plan for every situation, so you practice and pray that if it happens you have the brainpower to react to it. I shoot a min. of 15 rds per day through my p-85, and about 20 rds a week through the .270, plus about 20 through the shotgun per week. ------------------ Live Free or Die Trying, Steve

September 6, 1999, 08:41 PM	#6
Rob62 Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 1999 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 560	SB, you ask one heck of a compound question don't ya. First suggestion, read Army FM (Field Manual) 90-10 and 90-10-1 with change 1. They are the Army's bible(s)when it comes to Urban Warfare or MOUT in Army speak. Don't think they are restricted so they should be available over the net on the Army publication site. Depending on the training and motivation of your "HIT" your in BIG trouble. This definately sounds sounds like a loose/loose scenario. You'd be lucky to take them with you. But there are tons of things that you can do to give you a more level playing field. By reading the above mentioned FM's you'll learn a lot. Certainly more than I can impart on this topic here. Second and a shorter answer, do everything you can to "Strongpoint" or harden your residence. Use solid core doors with deadbolt locks, reinforce the door jambs (unbelievable how many people get super strong doors and never think about the jambs). Bars on windows are nice, but they work both ways, keeping you in while others out. Have positive communications with local Police agency, cell phones work well, but test it from your safe room, and have a spare charged battery handy. Dogs are a great first line of defense (early alarm) and so on and so on. There's just too much stuff in your topic to address adequately. Rob RKBA! ------------------ It's amazing what a large group of stupid people can accomplish. -----------------

September 6, 1999, 08:57 PM	#7
David Schmidbauer Retired Screen Name Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 396	GOOD Question(s)! However, having already though about such a scenario I choose not to post my "answers" on a public forum. Lets just say I've got it figured out and leave it at that. Schmit, GySgt USMC(Ret) NRA Life, Lodge 1201 - UOSSS "Si vis Pacem Para Bellum" "Molon labe" [This message has been edited by David Schmidbauer (edited September 06, 1999).]

September 7, 1999, 02:00 PM	#8
SB Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 1998 Posts: 415	Thank you for the replies so far. Again, I understand the sensitive nature of this question. And again, if it makes you folks more comfortable, I invite you to e-mail it to me instead. No need for specifics on how and where you've placed or done this or that. Just in generalities are fine, and as much as you feel comfortable in giving out.

September 8, 1999, 04:39 PM	#9
pete80 Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 1999 Posts: 454	Grab your gear and set fire to the homestead, I like the Russian's old "Torched Earth" tactic! Burn the goods before the bad guys can get to it or in a better case, out of it! Your triumphant victory over 4 well armed and well trained criminals is short lived. You will perish in a stand up gun fight against those odds. Your best bet is to call the call the police, get every one out and get the hell away from that place. But if you have to fight...