Black vs Smokeless Powders

[ZVP]

I just got started into handloading and the difference vetween the 2 types of propellent blows my mind!
In my .38 Special reloads we have been using 3.5 gr of WST and the loading manual states a velocity of approx 705 fps for a 158 gr bullet.
When I load BP for my C&B revolvers, 22 gr of Pyrodex propells a round .36 cal ball at approx 800fps.
I can see how dabgerous using the wrong powder could be!
My question is, does a loading data chart exhist for safe BP loads?
The owners manuals show very light charges (like 12 to 15 gr) but all the magazine articles state that a 22 to 25 gr charge is more proper.
All I want to do is have BP velocitys that are similar th the .38 Special velocitys.
Can anyone suggest where to look for help?
I really enjoy shooting boty styles of revolvers and just want to get the BP loads loaded like the origonals were charged.
Thanks
ZVP

[mehavey]

Short of superfine 4Fg, pretty much any amount of (true) black powder you can physically
stuff into a straight-walled case is waaaaaaaaaayyyy.... under smokeless pressure, and
usually tops out at 14-16ksi (if that much).

[Jim Watson]

Original .38 Special load was 21.5 gr (or thereabouts) of real black and a 158 grain roundnose. Old .38 Long Colt was 18 and 150.

Loading a fake powder like Pyrodex, you will of course use the volume equivalent.

[LE-28]

If you are planning on running black powder through a volumetric powder measure make sure it is black powder duty. Aluminum or brass. Static will set off black powder but it won't smokeless. Smokeless doesn't conduct electricity so static won't spark to it. All it does is give an annoying static cling.

Black powder conducts static very well because of the potassium nitrate (saltpeter) and can detonate from it.

You may already know this but thought I would add it in.

[mehavey]

While I always advise sidling up to true BP
with deliberate caution, please see HERE

[nemesiss45]

I haven't shot BP since I was a kid, and I didn't consider the danger of it, but my brother and I would take my Kentucky pistol and dump multiple charges of BP into it fire it off... All it ever did was shoot a bunch of unburned powder out with the ball.

[ZVP]

What gets me is that you CAN actually shoot both BP and Smokless from the same frame! If you use a vonversion cylinder, you can shoot Scofield and .45 Colt smokless charges in a black powder frame without harm! I wonder how much pressure difference there is?
Modern BP frames must be really strong in comparison to origonal frames! I would never attempt trying a conversion cylinder in an origonal BP revolver!
I am still trying to locate a chart which would show the old origonal black powder charges and the ssuggested ones for todays toughtr metals?
First of all I search for accuracy and secondly velocity.
I'll keep searching...
Thanks,
ZVP

[LE-28]

my brother and I would take my Kentucky pistol and dump multiple charges of BP into it fire it off... All it ever did was shoot a bunch of unburned powder out with the ball.

That's not really a problem. Just don't leave an air space between the ball and powder. That will cause a kaboom.

[Rico567]

It should be perhaps pointed out here that there really isn't any close relationship between black powder and smokeless powder, except in terms of the pressures generated. Chemically, the most you can say is that they're both classes of organic compounds.....

Black powder is a low explosive, smokeless powder is a propellant.

[mehavey]

Back to the OP's central question: How much BP is safe?

Answer: Since you must fill the case all the way to the bullet base to use BP
without a filler, the only real question is: how much more you can compress
into the case and be safe?

Answer: Stuffing all you possibly can into the case (as long as its at least to the bullet
base), still leaves you at a relatively low pressure by any standard.




~~~~~~~~
Assumes a straight (or near straight) wall case

[Jim Watson]

I would never attempt trying a conversion cylinder in an origonal BP revolver!

Why not? Colt and Remington did ca 1870. Of course their cartridge conversions still used black powder. I would not put a modern conversion cylinder in a period revolver and load it with smokeless, though.

I am still trying to locate a chart which would show the old origonal black powder charges and the ssuggested ones for todays toughtr metals?

I doubt you will find such a chart.
Mainly because a proper black powder charge is at least up to the base of the bullet and often higher until compressed. Black powder cartridges are now usually loaded with LESS powder because the brass is thicker and the internal volume smaller. I load a .40-65 with only 56 grains of powder. I know shooters who compress their loads a lot more than I do and get in 63 grains. They don't get a lot more velocity out of it, though.
I load an 1899 vintage Winchester .38-55 with 40.6 grains but a heavier bullet than was standard in the day. The case will hold 46 but will not shoot as accurately.

[chiefr]

Black powder cartridge reloading is entirely different than smokeless.
A black powder cartridge should have no space between the projectile and the base of the bullet, wad, or grease cookie.

BP cart reloading is similar to your cap & ball. You make sure there is no space between your projectile and your powder.

[Hawg]

Static will set off black powder

Since when?

[mehavey]

Since when?

Already discussed in post#5 above

[ZVP]

very interesting and helpfull!
Thank you!
BPDave