What to look for in a Garand?

[baddarryl]

Hi all. I know this may be a huge can of worms, but would should I look for in the average Garand. I have read such things as throat erosion ratings, and muzzle ratings etc. I am not looking for the high end uber collectable ones, but only in making sure I get a good functioning one. There is a Korean Era supposedly original one locally that I am considering, but I feel ill informed. Thanks.

[tahunua001]

throat erosion, muzzle wear and even though it's a pain and the shop probably wouldn't let you do this but the op-rod could be bent from not firing the proper ammo out of it.

[baddarryl]

Is there some kind of gauge to measure those?

[firewrench044]

could not understand how to post pictures here so I sent you an Email

gages are available at CMP or Brownells

[James K]

A bent op rod is pretty unlikely, but can happen. If possible, remove the op rod spring and make sure the op rod is free and moves when the gun is pointed up and down. But note that the M1 op rod is supposed to be bent; it is just supposed to be bent in certain places and in certain ways. So bent usually does not mean bad.

Jim

[mtlucas0311]

The absolute best way to get what your describing is to order a service grade from the CMP. One of the worst things you can hear from a seller is that a Garand is "all original". Anyone who actually knows enough to correctly identify an "original" Garand will not sell it for less than $1200 (or likely more). I've told many people the same thing, most of them don't want to go through the process to get one. I don't understand this philosophy because it's really not that hard, and then you are guaranteed to get a quality Garand...and if it has any type of issue, the CMP has outstanding customer service.

Even with their recent price bump, the CMP is still a couple hundred bucks below market value for Garands. There really is no better deal out there.

When I look at a Garand the first thing I look at is the muzzle. Ideally you want to see nice crisp lands and grooves that are sharp as they end at the crown (I'm assuming you don't have any gauges). Next is the bore, it should be free of any pitting or frosting as well as having a shiny mirror like finish. The last big thing is how tight the trigger guard is when it's locked into the stock. If you pull the rear of the trigger guard back to unlock the trigger assembly from the stock, you want it to be pretty tight when you try to reinstall it, almost difficult. This is a good indicator (but not absolute) of the stock and trigger housing condition. There are many many more things that you could inspect, these are just the first couple things I look at, I'm more of a shooter than collector. Collectors will scrutinize almost every piece of the rifle to evaluate it.

Regards,
Mike

[mapsjanhere]

I've been helping a friend of mine slowly dispose of his collection of Garands over the last 5 years at local gun shows. The details you have to know to distinguish a true find from an overhyped rebuild are staggering. Nothing more fun (or painful, depending on your point of view) than seeing two 70+ year old guys discussing the bend of an op-rod to determine if it's really an all-correct for WWII Winchester production gun or not. Why do they argue? Because it's a $500 difference to the expert. I've seen people buy a definitely used rifle for $2000 due to those little details over a nearly factory new rifle (last 20,000 serial number range, obviously never issued) for $1500. But you can go rarely wrong with a CMP gun or picking a shooter in the $600 to 800 range. Fun to shoot and no real potential for being taken.

[James K]

With one exception, there are very few M1 rifles that are truly oriignal, and almost certainly none from the WWII and pre-war era unless they are in museums. All rifles from those days have been hard used and rebuilt or repaired, sometimes several times. And it is impossible to determine if a rifle is original without some heavy duty books and a detailed disassembly of the rifle.

The exception would be those M1's that were sent to England pre-lend lease in 1940. Those are of 1938-1940 vintage and unless modified since they were brought back, are original to that era. Because of the ammunition problem, almost all spent the war in British depots, never issued and never upgraded.

If not buying from CMP, the purchaser of an M1 rifle should be very careful to recognize and avoid the so-called "cut and weld" receivers. I have seen several at gun shows recently, dolled up with new Parkerizing and new stocks. Don't be fooled. If you are considering buying an M1 rifle, read what is said on this site:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/faqs/M1G-FAQs/Weld.htm

Jim

[baddarryl]

Thanks for your input guys. Let me add that this one has an asking price of $1000.

[mtlucas0311]

The CMP just bumped up their prices, but they're still only $700??? $1,000 for a run of the mill Garand isn't any deal, but isn't robber either. I'd pay no attention to the claims of correctness or originality, they are likely exaggerated or flat out false. Often the sellers really believe their rifle is what they claim, because that's how it was sold to them and they don't have the knowledge to identify the "flaws" (with respect to collectibility). Other times, it's just a lie to get more money. Judge the rifles value by what you can see with your own eyes: muzzle condition, bore condition, finish wear (or if it's been reparked, the barrel should be bright at the chamber, if it's parkerized, the rifles been reparked), stock condition, etc.

Regards,
Mike

[James K]

It depends on what the buyer wants. If just a shooter, then the question of originality is not important as long as the rifle is safe and reliable. But if the seller claims the rifle is "original" then it is legitimate to question the meaning of the term. Some sellers mean only that the rifle is as it came from CMP or a surplus dealer. Others may mean that it is totally original, never having been upgraded or rebuilt after being manufactured. The latter is unlikely, and I would be highly skeptical of such a claim unless the seller can explain how it avoided the long arm of Army ordnance in those years.

Jim

[1stmar]

I was on cmps site today, $525 for field grade and $625 for service grade. $625 is the same price I paid nearly a year ago.

[mtlucas0311]

From the CMP website:

"M1 GARAND PRICE INCREASES – Effective 7 August, 2014 the price of the Springfield Armory and Harrington & Richardson Service Grade M1 is increased to $695. The price of the Springfield Armory and Harrington & Richardson Field Grade M1 is increased to $595. Orders currently on hand or received prior to 7 August will be charged the prices in effect prior to this increase."

In my opinion any seller who states their Garand is "original" and means it's as it came from CMP, or wherever, is being deceptive and justifying it by some other definition they came up with. I think we've all seen those rifles at gun shows. Unfortunately, there are many, many people who are willing to prey on trusting people. Just my opinion.

Regards,
Mike

[kraigwy]

Why not just get a CMP Garand? You will know they function correctly or they wouldn't put them on the shelf. Plus if something is defective they'll make it right. You wont find any better customer service.

And don't get hung up on Muzzle or throat erosion. I got mine in 80-81 and have shot the crap out of it. I got it so hot it was melting the sap out of the upper hand guard.

The measurements, TE and ME is not good, many will say the barrel is shot, yet it still is capable of cleaning the targets used in CMP GSM matches.

Get a CMP Garand, attend a CMP Garand Clinic and don't look back.

[1stmar]

Mike you are correct. Must not have had my glasses on. $695 not $625. Thanks for the correction.
I agree, cmp is the way to go. Looks like their lead times are improving.

[chiefr]

If not buying from CMP, the purchaser of an M1 rifle should be very careful to recognize and avoid the so-called "cut and weld" receivers. I have seen several at gun shows recently, dolled up with new Parkerizing and new stocks. Don't be fooled. If you are considering buying an M1 rifle.

Best advice yet. Some of the rewelds are difficult to detect unless you remove the stock. The last one I saw had a brand new barrel.

[madcratebuilder]

The exception would be those M1's that were sent to England pre-lend lease in 1940. Those are of 1938-1940 vintage and unless modified since they were brought back, are original to that era. Because of the ammunition problem, almost all spent the war in British depots, never issued and never upgraded.

I'm not aware of any Garands being shipped to the Brits before the 38,001 M1 rifles sent to England under Lend Lease in 1941-42, the usual s/n range is 300K-700K, all SA rifles.

These LL Garands have very distinct features, some are completely original and in nearly unfired condition. Some have a red caliber band, some don't. These are approaching $5k in price.

Most of the LL Garands served with the "Home guard". There is photographic evidence of commando troops using Garands on raids but no documentation on the number used.

[T. O'Heir]

"...that a Garand is "all original"...." Very likely made that way by somebody with too much time and money.
The other one is the guy saying his dad or granddad brought it back from the War. If he did, the rifle is stolen. The troopies were never allowed to keep their issued kit.
"...some kind of gauge..." A field expedient gauge can be a loaded .30 M2 cartridge, put into the muzzle. Forget how far in is bad though.
"...Most of the LL Garands served with the "Home guard"..." Most were put into storage and returned before the war ended. No ammo in the Brit supply system. Some went to the RAF Regm't guarding air fields on the Rhine after the war was over though.

[Bart B.]

Kraig, none of the best built match grade .30-06 Garands swallowing a throat gauge to 10 could keep national match lots of M72 ammo inside the old 600-yard 12" V-ring or new target's 12" 10-ring. Most lots of regular M72 ammo shot no better than 13 inches at 600 in the best bolt guns. In the best M1MN's, M72 tested about 15 inches in a new barrel reading zero on the throat gauge. But that didn't matter too much on the old target's 20" high scoring ring.

Few people, less than 10, have shot 20 rounds from a Garand into the 12" V ring on the old target. It's been done 2 or 3 times at the Nationals. But always with top quality match grade rifles with fairly new barrels and exceptional lots of ammo.

[Jimro]

Bart B.

To clarify KraigWY's point a little bit, the CMP Garand matches are all held at 200 yards for all three stages every where I've seen them held.

So it is very possible for a not so pristine Garand to clean targets at 200 still, as long as the rifle/ammo is consistently capable of 2 MOA.

Jimro

[Bart B.]

Best wishes finding any service grade Garand that'll shoot any ammo inside 4 inches at 400 yards; all shots fired, not the average, mean radius, smallest group or anything other than all shots fired in a CMP GSM shoot. You might find one combination that'll shoot inside 6 inches, but even one that shoots inside 5 inches won't cut the mustard keeping all hand held rifles shooting inside 7 inches at 200 yards; that's the size of the CMP GSM 10-ring on the NRA SR target. Folks shooting those events will add at least 1 MOA shooting prone (a lot more sitting and standing) to whatever the rifle and ammo shoots

The claim was based on gauges saying the barrel was shot out. One with such measurements will be less accurate. There's 1 MOA slop in their rear sight, even if brand new.

[kilimanjaro]

Seems that 'original' Garands around here contain USGI parts, regardless of when or where made and assembled.

[James K]

Hi, Madcratebuilder,

You are correct on the M1 rifles sent to England. I was thinking of the million plus M1917s that were sent in 1940; those definitely were pre-Lend Lease. (The Lend-Lease Act was not passed until March, 1941.) No M1 rifles were sent that early that I know of.

Jim

[madcratebuilder]

It's impossible to keep all facts and figures straight 100% of the time. I'm can't even figure out if a original 3.7 mil Rem 1903a3 should have a large bow or small bow TG, blue or park?