Are auto weapons legal?

Firepower! · September 7, 2009, 05:55 PM

Hi
Are automatic weapons legal in the US? I am talking about post 1986 weapons. Who can buy them and how much they cost, such as M4A1, Galil, G36 etc? Can a private collector buy them if money is of no concern? I am curious because on youtube I see lots of auto weapons used by civilians in the US.

JWT · September 7, 2009, 06:02 PM

Deleted

RNB65 · September 7, 2009, 06:04 PM

It's not legal to possess or transfer private ownership of any FA weapon that isn't included in the BATFE registry which was closed in '86. FA weapons manufactured or imported after '86 can only be owned by military, law enforcement or anyone registered with the BATFE as a Class 3 firearms manufacturer or dealer.

The guns you see on YouTube are either pre-'86 weapons or they're owned by a manufacturer/dealer. They're not privately owned if they were made after 1986.

Buying a pre-'86 FA weapon in the US is not particularly difficult in most states. It just cost a lot of money and a lot of paperwork.

Firepower! · October 20, 2009, 07:42 AM

Who are these Class 3 dealers? Who are they selling it to?

How hard is it to get class 3 status so that you can have everything?

Please answer this with assumption that it money is of no concern.

freakshow10mm · October 20, 2009, 09:16 AM

A dealer FFL is $200 initial for 3yrs and the SOT, Special Occupational Tax, is $500 yearly. You must pay the SOT to deal in NFA weapons. A manufacturer is $150/3yrs and $1,000 yearly (or $500 for small manufacturers. I think importer is the same stuff for manufacturer.

There isn't a such thing as a Class 3 dealer or Class3 weapon. There is a Class 3 SOT, an NFA dealer, and NFA weapons.

The ban on civilian ownership of full auto weapons was enacted on May 19, 1986. The importation of automatic weapons for civilians was enacted in 1968.

There are three types of automatic weapons in the US.

Fully transferable
These are domestic manufacture prior to 1986 or imported prior to 1968. These are civilian legal and command a high price (supply/demand).

Pre 1986 Dealer Sample (pre-86 sample)
These are weapons imported after 1968 but before 1986. These do not require a demonstration letter by a LE agency to transfer between SOTs. When a dealer gives up his SOT, he may transfer these to himself by paying a $200 tax and filing Form 1 for every weapon. These are priced between transferable and post 86 guns. Other than the "keeper" rule, they are not civilian legal.

Post 1986 Dealer Sample( post May sample)
These are basically new manufacture from May of 1986 to current production. These can only be transfered between SOTs if they have a demo request letter from an LE agency or government entity. These are not civilian legal. When the dealer gives up his SOT status, he must destroy them or transfer them out of his inventory, demo letter, etc.

Example of pricing for something like an AK47 automatic rifle would be $600-800 for a post 1986 sample, maybe $4-5,000 for a pre 1986 sample, and a fully transferable one would probably go $10,000 or higher. (Just pulling numbers out of the sky for illustrative purposes.)

Willie Lowman · October 20, 2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

There isn't a such thing as a Class 3 dealer or Class3 weapon.

I am looking at the box my 590 SBS came in and it clearly says "Class III weapon" on the sticker from Mossberg...

freakshow10mm · October 20, 2009, 10:56 AM

Because Mossberg is ignorant.

What is a "Class III" weapon then?

A weapon you need a "Class III" license to sell? Nope. No such thing as a "Class III license or permit".

Any SOT can sell them, an 01, 02 or 03 SOT can all deal in NFA weapons.

Why is the law called the National Firearms Act of 1934 or NFA? Why isn't it called the Class III law?

Marlin also calls a magazine a clip, but that is just a show of their ignorance. A magazine is not a clip and putting it as such on a box does not change anything.

If my company labeled our AOWs as "Class 42 weapon", is it a Class 42 weapon?

Willie Lowman · October 20, 2009, 11:24 AM

Now I can tell you have your knickers all in a twist over this. I prefer the term NFA firearm.

However "Class III" is common speak for the weapons regulated by the NFA and the people who deal in them. "Slang" I think it is called.

Do you get this worked up when someone calls a cartridge a "bullet"? The bullet is only part of the cartridge right?

Howabout calling a helicopter a "chopper"? They don't do any chopping unless the pilot is doing something very wrong.

Class III is common and accepted slang. There are several title II (NFA) dealers who refer to themselves as class III dealers on their websites. Is it because they are stupid? They are showing their ignorance? Or is it because MOST people (their paying customers) know that 'class III' means 'registered machineguns, short barrels, and suppressors'. MOST people don't know what the heck a SOT is.

Firepower! · October 20, 2009, 11:48 AM

So as I understand, one can own anythin he wants...just paperwork, etc.

Eg: I become SOT/dealer and keep G36 or new such weapons as samples.

Willie Lowman · October 20, 2009, 03:55 PM

It is my understanding that a dealer may only have one of a particular post 86 sample. One G36, one galil, one M249... Each one must have a law enforcement demo letter to go with it. Something like "We of department such and such would like a demo of the M249 machinegun so we can decide if we will buy one."

-I am not a dealer. That is just my understanding of how post samples are regulated. I could be wrong.

freakshow10mm · October 20, 2009, 09:06 PM

Quote:

However "Class III" is common speak for the weapons regulated by the NFA and the people who deal in them. "Slang" I think it is called.

Ignorance is what I call it.

Quote:

Do you get this worked up when someone calls a cartridge a "bullet"? The bullet is only part of the cartridge right?

Yes. I correct everyone every time. It's lack of education and intelligence.

Quote:

Howabout calling a helicopter a "chopper"? They don't do any chopping unless the pilot is doing something very wrong.

A helicopter is a helicopter. It is not a chopper.

Quote:

Class III is common and accepted slang. There are several title II (NFA) dealers who refer to themselves as class III dealers on their websites. Is it because they are stupid? They are showing their ignorance? Or is it because MOST people (their paying customers) know that 'class III' means 'registered machineguns, short barrels, and suppressors'. MOST people don't know what the heck a SOT is.

They are showing their ignorance and are catering to idiots who are too stupid to own an NFA weapon let alone a sharp stick. If they want to dumb themselves down to that level, that's their business. I am a stickler for nomenclature. People that call the .30-'06 the thirty-odd six instead of thirty-ought six drive me up the wall and get scolded.

Bottom line: If you are going to talk about something or represent yourself has a profession in dealing with the item, know the proper terminology and use it. First thing I think of when I see "Class 3 dealer" on someone's website is, "what a ****ing idiot".

Willie Lowman · October 20, 2009, 09:32 PM

Your web site advertises the "neutering" of firearms.

Given your stance against slang in any form, how can you offer to perform surgery that would remove the reproductive organs from a firearm?

I understand that you would use the term to describe altering a firearm to make it California legal? What was it you were saying about people having slang on their web pages and their clientele?

Edit: I am intrigued by this argument. I am going to start a thread about it.

FrontSight · October 20, 2009, 09:45 PM

freakshow10mm, can you please explain what the difference is b/t an 01, 02 or 03 SOT, or point me to a website that explains it?

And are there 4 types, as you stated, or only 3 types, as you listed?

And what's the difference b/t a Class 3 SOT, and an NFA dealer?

So confused...

Thanks!

freakshow10mm · October 22, 2009, 09:34 AM

There are three types of SOTs, importer (Class 1), manufacturer (Class 2), and dealer (Class 3). Any SOT can deal in NFA weapons so they are all NFA dealers.

A Class 1 SOT is an importer but may also deal in NFA weapons.

A Class 2 SOT is a manufacturer of NFA weapons, can also deal in them, and has very limited importation privileges.

A Class 3 SOT is a dealer and can only deal. They cannot import or manufacture.

DRice.72 · October 30, 2009, 09:54 AM

Okay, I understand now. I never knew that about NFA arms. I'm glad I read this thread. Thanks!

Skans · October 30, 2009, 10:41 AM

Post 86 full autos are not legal for civilians to own in the US.

Jon1911 · October 30, 2009, 10:52 AM

Freakshow, I like your precision with language. I correct people fairly often as well.

raimius · October 30, 2009, 06:57 PM

Precision wording when dealing with the NFA and corresponding laws is often necessary.

"Does he have a class III license?"
"No, he has a tax stamp for his short barreled rifle."

freakshow10mm · October 30, 2009, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Your web site advertises the "neutering" of firearms.

Given your stance against slang in any form, how can you offer to perform surgery that would remove the reproductive organs from a firearm?

I understand that you would use the term to describe altering a firearm to make it California legal? What was it you were saying about people having slang on their web pages and their clientele?

Perhaps because a gentleman by the name of Roger Neuter told me about CA laws regarding mag locks. A Neuter Transfer is one that originated with Roger Neuter.

gyvel · October 30, 2009, 11:39 PM

Stop with the word nitpicking, already.

I daresay I could correct all of you on any one of a dozen or more words you use in a given day because, through common usage, they have become colloquial vernacular, much like the way "bullet" is used in place of "cartridge" or "round," "clip" is substituted for "magazine," and "chopper" is used for "helicopter."

September 7, 2009, 05:55 PM	#1
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	Are auto weapons legal? Hi Are automatic weapons legal in the US? I am talking about post 1986 weapons. Who can buy them and how much they cost, such as M4A1, Galil, G36 etc? Can a private collector buy them if money is of no concern? I am curious because on youtube I see lots of auto weapons used by civilians in the US.

September 7, 2009, 06:04 PM	#3
RNB65 Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2006 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 167	It's not legal to possess or transfer private ownership of any FA weapon that isn't included in the BATFE registry which was closed in '86. FA weapons manufactured or imported after '86 can only be owned by military, law enforcement or anyone registered with the BATFE as a Class 3 firearms manufacturer or dealer. The guns you see on YouTube are either pre-'86 weapons or they're owned by a manufacturer/dealer. They're not privately owned if they were made after 1986. Buying a pre-'86 FA weapon in the US is not particularly difficult in most states. It just cost a lot of money and a lot of paperwork. __________________ THR refugee. Last edited by RNB65; September 7, 2009 at 06:12 PM.

October 20, 2009, 09:16 AM	#5
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	A dealer FFL is $200 initial for 3yrs and the SOT, Special Occupational Tax, is $500 yearly. You must pay the SOT to deal in NFA weapons. A manufacturer is $150/3yrs and $1,000 yearly (or $500 for small manufacturers. I think importer is the same stuff for manufacturer. There isn't a such thing as a Class 3 dealer or Class3 weapon. There is a Class 3 SOT, an NFA dealer, and NFA weapons. The ban on civilian ownership of full auto weapons was enacted on May 19, 1986. The importation of automatic weapons for civilians was enacted in 1968. There are three types of automatic weapons in the US. Fully transferable These are domestic manufacture prior to 1986 or imported prior to 1968. These are civilian legal and command a high price (supply/demand). Pre 1986 Dealer Sample (pre-86 sample) These are weapons imported after 1968 but before 1986. These do not require a demonstration letter by a LE agency to transfer between SOTs. When a dealer gives up his SOT, he may transfer these to himself by paying a $200 tax and filing Form 1 for every weapon. These are priced between transferable and post 86 guns. Other than the "keeper" rule, they are not civilian legal. Post 1986 Dealer Sample( post May sample) These are basically new manufacture from May of 1986 to current production. These can only be transfered between SOTs if they have a demo request letter from an LE agency or government entity. These are not civilian legal. When the dealer gives up his SOT status, he must destroy them or transfer them out of his inventory, demo letter, etc. Example of pricing for something like an AK47 automatic rifle would be $600-800 for a post 1986 sample, maybe $4-5,000 for a pre 1986 sample, and a fully transferable one would probably go $10,000 or higher. (Just pulling numbers out of the sky for illustrative purposes.) Last edited by freakshow10mm; October 22, 2009 at 09:01 AM.

October 20, 2009, 11:24 AM	#8
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	Now I can tell you have your knickers all in a twist over this. I prefer the term NFA firearm. However "Class III" is common speak for the weapons regulated by the NFA and the people who deal in them. "Slang" I think it is called. Do you get this worked up when someone calls a cartridge a "bullet"? The bullet is only part of the cartridge right? Howabout calling a helicopter a "chopper"? They don't do any chopping unless the pilot is doing something very wrong. Class III is common and accepted slang. There are several title II (NFA) dealers who refer to themselves as class III dealers on their websites. Is it because they are stupid? They are showing their ignorance? Or is it because MOST people (their paying customers) know that 'class III' means 'registered machineguns, short barrels, and suppressors'. MOST people don't know what the heck a SOT is. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

October 20, 2009, 03:55 PM	#10
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	It is my understanding that a dealer may only have one of a particular post 86 sample. One G36, one galil, one M249... Each one must have a law enforcement demo letter to go with it. Something like "We of department such and such would like a demo of the M249 machinegun so we can decide if we will buy one." -I am not a dealer. That is just my understanding of how post samples are regulated. I could be wrong. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

September 7, 2009, 06:02 PM	#2
JWT Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2007 Location: Southern Arizona Posts: 3,888	Deleted

October 20, 2009, 07:42 AM	#4
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	Who are these Class 3 dealers? Who are they selling it to? How hard is it to get class 3 status so that you can have everything? Please answer this with assumption that it money is of no concern.

October 20, 2009, 10:56 AM	#7
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	Because Mossberg is ignorant. What is a "Class III" weapon then? A weapon you need a "Class III" license to sell? Nope. No such thing as a "Class III license or permit". Any SOT can sell them, an 01, 02 or 03 SOT can all deal in NFA weapons. Why is the law called the National Firearms Act of 1934 or NFA? Why isn't it called the Class III law? Marlin also calls a magazine a clip, but that is just a show of their ignorance. A magazine is not a clip and putting it as such on a box does not change anything. If my company labeled our AOWs as "Class 42 weapon", is it a Class 42 weapon?

October 20, 2009, 11:48 AM	#9
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	So as I understand, one can own anythin he wants...just paperwork, etc. Eg: I become SOT/dealer and keep G36 or new such weapons as samples.

October 20, 2009, 09:32 PM	#12
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	Your web site advertises the "neutering" of firearms. Given your stance against slang in any form, how can you offer to perform surgery that would remove the reproductive organs from a firearm? I understand that you would use the term to describe altering a firearm to make it California legal? What was it you were saying about people having slang on their web pages and their clientele? Edit: I am intrigued by this argument. I am going to start a thread about it. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens Last edited by Willie Lowman; October 20, 2009 at 10:14 PM.

October 20, 2009, 09:45 PM	#13
FrontSight Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2005 Posts: 1,712	freakshow10mm, can you please explain what the difference is b/t an 01, 02 or 03 SOT, or point me to a website that explains it? And are there 4 types, as you stated, or only 3 types, as you listed? And what's the difference b/t a Class 3 SOT, and an NFA dealer? So confused... Thanks! __________________ To kill something as great as a duck just to smell the gunpowder is a crime against nature. - Alan Liere Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. - George Bernard Shaw

October 22, 2009, 09:34 AM	#14
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	There are three types of SOTs, importer (Class 1), manufacturer (Class 2), and dealer (Class 3). Any SOT can deal in NFA weapons so they are all NFA dealers. A Class 1 SOT is an importer but may also deal in NFA weapons. A Class 2 SOT is a manufacturer of NFA weapons, can also deal in them, and has very limited importation privileges. A Class 3 SOT is a dealer and can only deal. They cannot import or manufacture.

October 30, 2009, 09:54 AM	#15
DRice.72 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2009 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 451	Okay, I understand now. I never knew that about NFA arms. I'm glad I read this thread. Thanks! __________________ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin Light is faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright unitl you hear them speak! They should have stopped with "Congress shall make no Law...

October 30, 2009, 10:41 AM	#16
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Post 86 full autos are not legal for civilians to own in the US.

October 30, 2009, 10:52 AM	#17
Jon1911 Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Posts: 70	Freakshow, I like your precision with language. I correct people fairly often as well. __________________ Μολὼν λάβε

October 30, 2009, 06:57 PM	#18
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Precision wording when dealing with the NFA and corresponding laws is often necessary. "Does he have a class III license?" "No, he has a tax stamp for his short barreled rifle."

October 30, 2009, 11:39 PM	#20
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Stop with the word nitpicking, already. I daresay I could correct all of you on any one of a dozen or more words you use in a given day because, through common usage, they have become colloquial vernacular, much like the way "bullet" is used in place of "cartridge" or "round," "clip" is substituted for "magazine," and "chopper" is used for "helicopter."