School me on the Velo Dog... please...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

lately ( I'd guess because the last Fiochi ammo seems to have dried up ) I'm seeing better prices on some little velo dog revolvers... in doing my searches, I seem to be getting conflicting information...

A) they are center fire right ???

B) are they reloadable ??? or are the primers not boxer style ???

C) if they were reloadable, I'd think I could find cases, & or reloading dies etc. which I can not...

I've never handled a case, but was searching for a ultra low power reloadable cartridge for a project a while back... so if they are centerfire, whats up with them ???

anyone school me on the "dog" ???

[PetahW]

"Velo" = velocipide = bicycle.

"Dog" = canine = dog bites.

Before the turn of the 20th Century (1900), the main mode of public transportation, especially in Europe, was the bicycle.
When they were first invented, many called what we now know as a bicycle, a velocipide.

Dogs often chased the then-new bicycles, also often biting the rider.

So, entreprenaurs started marketing (guess what ?) bicycle rifles (small/folding, etc), and handguns - some chambered for bicycle (velocipide), aka "Velo", cartridges.

Ergo, the 5mm, etc, Velo Dogs.

.

[Cheapshooter]

A= YES

B= YES, YES, http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=92045

C= Have never seen them. Probably very expensive if available, or have to be custom made.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

sorry, I should have been more clear... I guess I specifically ment cartridge dimensions, primers, etc... I got the bicycle gun for dogs thing from my searches, but I can't find any specifics on the cartridges...

even if they had small pistol boxer style primers, the whole bottom of the case would be primer... pretty much all the berdine primers I've seen have been bigger than their Boxer counterparts...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

yep... been to that Sportsmans Guide page twice today, before clicking on the link this evening... note they are sold out of Velo Dog...

so you think they are reloadable ??? I can't find any reloading dies etc. from any of the normal or obsolite ammo sources I normally look through ???

[Jim Watson]

I don't know about the Fiocchi, but when Charles Askins built the .22 centerfire Woodsman to take advantage of a loophole in pre 1937 bullseye rules, he reloaded VeloDog brass. I think he said he bought all that Remington had left. Full story* at:
http://www.colt22.com/askins.html

*Well, one version. This one says he shot it and won, in another version he said "I threw it in the ashcan. It lies rusting in my guncase to this day." Also said he quit his job over it.

[Scorch]

MWM-
5.5 Velo Dog was introduced in 1894, loaded to about 750 fps with an internally lubed 45 gr FMJ bullet. It has slightly less energy than a standard velocity 22LR.
Bullet diameter= .225"
Rim diameter= .308"
Base diameter= .253"
Neck diameter= .248"
Case length= 1.12"
Cartridge length= 1.35"

This is approximately the same dimensions as a 22 WMR (22 Magnum), but the 22 WMR operates at MUCH higher pressures. If you get the itch, your machinist friend could make you some cases out of brass bar stock and you could reload them with .224" bullets. Probably take about 1.0-1.5 gr of FFFg BP.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

very interesting info... thanks guys

any ideas about the original primers ??? same as current SP Boxers, or something originally unique to the dog ???

anyone got a roundin their cartridge collection live or spent ???

[James K]

As noted, they were made in this country, but have not been produced for about 80 years, certainly not after WWII, and they were never a big seller. I may be wrong, but I don't think any gun was made in the US for the cartridge (except for Askins' one-off Woodsman, and it didn't fire the factory Velo-Dog round). The only ones I see are single pieces at collectors' prices. European rounds are Berdan primed and not feasible to reload, and I don't even know if dies are made for it. The US-made rounds used the standard small pistol primer; I assume the Fiocchi cartridges did also but don't have one and can't be sure.

FWIW, here is a picture of Askins' "Velo-Dog Woodsman" made to compete in the CF matches with the recoil of a .22. The gun had to be altered to center fire, then there was a rule that a CF rear sight had to be ahead of the hammer, so he had the rear sight moved and welded on. The gun couldn't fire the long Velo-Dog round; the cases had to be cut to .22 LR length.

Jim

[Jim Watson]

Here are some dies
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=204018265

I cannot find what primer the old US made stuff or the new Fiocchi uses. If it is something like the old extra small 0 or 00 sizes, you are out of luck.

[James K]

Midway shows the Fiocchi still in stock.

Be aware that "Velo-Dog revolver" has come to be a common term for all those small, folding trigger European revolvers, most of which do NOT fire the Velo-Dog cartridge. More common cartridges are the British .320 (the .32 Short Colt) and later the .25 ACP and .32 ACP. Most of those small guns, even ones described as being "Velodogs" have cylinders too short for the Velo-Dog cartridge.

Jim

[Ideal Tool]

Hey guys, here's a bit of trivia: When Grosvenor Watkins developed the .22 Hornet using .22WCF. brass, what did he use for a bullet? The old vello-Dog! He swaged bullet backwards to make soft point...The rest is history!

[Magnum Wheel Man]

JIM... your seaches must be better than mine, I can't find anything at Midway under Velodog, Velo Dog, or Velo-dog... so I just did a search of "Fiocchi 22" & got 3 pages, but nothing with the "Dog" in it...

http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#Fio...16_Demand desc

[batjka]

The Velo Dog cartridge is currently marketed as .22 CCM. It is reloadable and the dies are available here :

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.co...sku=0004456636

A quick search showed only one brass supplier:

Schroeder Bullets (Steve)
1421 Thermal Ave.
San Diego, CA 92154-2834
619-423-3523

Hope this helps.

I'm not sure about the load data for Velo Dog or if .22 CCM data will work in an old revolver. Please do some research before shooting a .22 CCM in a Velo Dog.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

thanks for the info... the Velo-Dog is a very low pressure cartridge, & nothing magnum should be even associated with it... however, that doesn't mean that they ( Cooper ) didn't modernize the cartridge for a modern gun ( I personally would have never used the exact dimensions of an antiquated cartridge for a more modern magnum round ( but that doesn't mean Cooper followed those guidelines )

are we sure the cartridge dimensions are the same ???

BTW... I was able to pick up a box of newer Fiocchi ammo so I can see if they are boxer primed or not... at the very least, I can add them to my buddy's & my cartridge collections...

[Scorch]

The Velo Dog cartridge is currently marketed as .22 CCM.

22 CCM and 5.5mm Velo Dog are not the same cartridge, as can be seen by the dimensions here. However, you could use the 22 CCM brass, trim it to the proper length, and reload it with BP or Trail Boss and it would work fine. Or just use Velo Dog brass.

[batjka]

Scorch,

I stand corrected. The brass will have to be trimmed down. Everything else is within tolerances and can be used in a Velodog. I'm sure .22 CCM brass is easier to find than Velodog brass, that's why I suggested using it.

Thanks for the info.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

thanks for all the info... I bought the ammo on Gun Broker, so will have to wait for it to get here to pull a bullet... & look at the case & primer

... and it makes sense that the Cooper cartridge is longer, so the higher pressure factory ammo can't be inserted into a antique black powder gun...

I wonder how available the Cooper cases are ??? a couple rifles listed on G.B. but no ammo, components or dies listed

BTW... reading the description on the Sportsmans Guide site ( even though they are sold out ) lists the ammo as boxer primed & reloadable ??? hope so...

[batjka]

Magnum,

Please see my post above with the brass seller's contact info. Hope it's correct and you can still get in touch with him. I have also posted a link to RCBS dies that are pretty reasonable.

Good luck and please follow up with a range report.

[James K]

I have not seen many VeloDog revolvers, but IIRC the chambers, at least in some, are bored straight through, so the length of the cartridge is limited only by the length of the cylinder.

On noting that the pressure level of the .22 CCM is 48,500 CUP, I can only hope they don't suggest using it in any of the old single shot rifles or VeloDog type revolvers. That pressure is in the .30-'06 range; it would blow one of the old European revolvers to bits!

Jim