Bear hunting and gall bladders...

m17s_guy · April 2, 2011, 04:42 PM

so im thinking of taking a guided hunt here in GA for some black bear, and found that ALL of the guide services require you to destroy the gall bladder during the field dress....
Anyone know why that is?

Also my important question is what bullet / load i should be toting for my 150-200 lb class bear coming out of my rem700 308. this will be my first consideration on anything bigger than white tail or muley, and i dont want to have an iffy shot cause the bear undo suffering...

any info would be appreciated

egor20 · April 2, 2011, 04:58 PM

On the black market in certain Asian countries a bears gall bladder can go for up to $3.000 for medicinal purposes. There is a lot of poaching out there where people will shoot a bear just for the gall bladder.

dalegribble · April 2, 2011, 05:21 PM

why would guides required you to destroy the gall bladder? if i paid for a hunt and could sell the body parts afterwards it would just help pay for the hunt.

alloy · April 2, 2011, 07:15 PM

Couple few years or so years ago, some "so called" guides taking everyone they knew out after bears, for the gall bladders and parts. It was a regular international crime stink.
The gov had a gun shop/check station set up and staffed for years making that case. I think you'd have to know some seriously odd folks to sell the stuff.
I can see real guides not wanting any confusion, or association w/ that kind of thing. They probobly have the policy not against you per se, but against someone that won't abide by to the simple terms you stated.
No agreement to destroy the parts...no hunt guide.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-122007-6565r/

grubbylabs · April 3, 2011, 09:25 AM

A black bear is no harder to kill than a white tail a well constructed 165 grain bullet should do just fine.

buck460XVR · April 3, 2011, 01:16 PM

Quote:

why would guides required you to destroy the gall bladder? if i paid for a hunt and could sell the body parts afterwards it would just help pay for the hunt.

..because in most states, it is illegal to sell or buy wild game or parts thereof. Exceptions are usually hide, horns and/or mounts. Guides will ask the hunter to destroy the gall bladder so they cannot be accused of taking and selling them later.

m17s_guy · April 5, 2011, 03:30 AM

thx for the info, didnt know that something as odd as a gall bladder would fetch big money on the (?) black market. maybe i should sell mine

also thx for the tip on the 165gr bullet. i have some sitting on the shelf, and will have to dust them off and double check the zero on the old nikon before i bite the bullet and drop cash on the hunt.

and dale. i do believe that in GA selling any part of ANY game animal is illegal. i could be wrong, but i do know the local sheriffs dept. asked us for assistance last fall in going to haul off a bunch of whitetail carcasses that some guy was attempting to sell to a charity (hunters for the hungry) and he got hit with a bunch of stuff including poaching, because he didnt have most of the hanging deer tagged.

spacemanspiff · April 5, 2011, 01:47 PM

Considering that Alaska has a lot more bears to hunt, we see a lot more poaching and illegal harvesting of various game for the purpose of unlawfully exporting. F&G performs sting ops where they pose as customers and catch the guides doing a lot of dirt. They often find freezers full of body parts at the guides homes and businesses.

I think that guides who insist on destroying the valuable parts so they ensure there is no illegal harvesting is a responsible act, and I commend those guides for doing that.

pablowest · April 7, 2011, 06:13 AM

Hi alloy, I like your link. It really help me a lot. Thanks.

Art Eatman · April 7, 2011, 08:00 AM

Do some browsing on the black market in parts of various animals. It's astounding.

Yemenis pay $30,000 to $50,000 for rhino horns to use as handles on daggers.

Asiatics are big into aphrodisiacs. AmerInds at one time were killing deer and elk while in velvet, taking only the antlers for sale into that Asian market and leaving the rest of the animal. Same sort of thing for poaching of bears.

And, of course, ivory...

gearhounds · April 7, 2011, 08:55 AM

Ivory was valued for a different selfish reason as is Rhino horn; ignorance and superstition are the main reasons gall bladders, tiger penis's, antlers in velvet, etc are so desirable.

Maybe as a nation we should begin a program of harvesting gall bladders from the meat industry (cows, pigs, goats, sheep, etc) and flooding the market with "bear gall bladders" until no one can tell what they'll get. The problem was epidemic in the late 80's-early 90's, and lord knows how many game animals were slaughtered and left to rot.

Double Naught Spy · April 7, 2011, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Asiatics are big into aphrodisiacs.

This is a bit of a gross over generalization. Lots of folks are. Have you seen the market for aphrodisiacs and related products in the US? We may not buy animal parts for the job, but if it comes in a pill, we spend millions and millions for it.

Quote:

Ivory was valued for a different selfish reason as is Rhino horn; ignorance and superstition are the main reasons gall bladders, tiger penis's, antlers in velvet, etc are so desirable.

Careful when waving the ignorance flag too aggressively or you might get wrapped up in the banner as well. As with many native medicines from around the world, not all of the animal-based products you mention are used out of ignorance or superstition. The same can be said for plant and mineral uses, too. In fact, western medicine has spent considerable time looking to how native medicine has managed to work so well for many treatments, be they Native American, Bushman, Asian, etc.

Bear gall bladder and bile contain chemicals that are indeed beneficial and are used in medical treatments, though often synthesized or extracted from other sources. These include ursodeoxycholic acid, taurine derivatives and chenodeoxycholic acid, for example.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12190957
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenodeoxycholic_acid
http://www.fda.gov.tw/files/publish_...ical/8-4-8.PDF

Some things don't make much sense. I saw this paper (below) presented at the International Council for Zooarchaeology meetings in Konstanz, Germany back in the 90s and visited with the author and examined specimins at USFWS. Not all the products have bonafide medicinal uses and fakes are quite numerous, sometimes even dangerous. The chemical hardeners used to harden the soft tissue (beyond drying) of the intricately and elaborately carved bull penis to emulate a tiger baculum are potentially poisonous, even.

I think this is a very unique read...
http://www.lab.fws.gov/idnotes/TigerPenisIDN6.pdf

I am not familiar with any real benefits of tiger penis medications, but antler velvet is another matter. It does appear to have some beneficial components, but whether or not they can be extracted and made properly beneficial may be another matter all together and the FDA has cracked down on many antler velvet supplement sellers because of unsubstantiated claims.

http://www.drugs.com/npp/deer-velvet.html

Art Eatman · April 7, 2011, 07:31 PM

We were in the context of animals, not modern pharmaceuticals. I drifted a bit into the wider black market, just as an idea for others to find a dab of info on the broader subject...

Vt.birdhunter · April 7, 2011, 08:04 PM

If I legally take a black bear during bear season, on my own land, can I LEGALLY sell the gall bladder for anywhere close to $3000???

Double Naught Spy · April 7, 2011, 10:01 PM

Quote:

We were in the context of animals, not modern pharmaceuticals.

Right. I am glad we are on the same track. Bear gall bladders have useful medical applications. It isn't ignorance or superstition that are the only reasons that the gall bladders get used. Their components are not rendered down to the necessary components like modern drugs, but that doesn't mean that they aren't useful for medicinal reasons. So in the context of animals and only animals, there are many animal parts that have medicinal uses. We mimic them today with refined and/or synthesized versions, but that doesn't negate their original usefulness.

Sure, some applications may not be realistic, no doubt, but to claim out of hand their their use is based on ignorance or superstition alone is inaccurate.

Art Eatman · April 8, 2011, 08:36 AM

Pretty much, all the articles I've read over the last twenty or more years about the black market trade in animal parts discuss the use in Asia as aphrodisiacs.

That seems to be the major market, moreso than real-world medical uses. I'm not sure there's much true medicinal use for tiger whiskers.

Sixty years ago, the big deal in the US among teeny-boppers about aphrodisiacs was "Spanish Fly". Cantharides. There was almost as much misinformation passed around about that as there is about guns at this website. (The operative word is "almost".)

Hunter2678 · April 8, 2011, 09:06 AM

Anyime you're ok with selling animal parts for big $$ you're going to do more harm than good to the species you take it from..unless you can legitimately renew & farm these animals for these purposes, you'll always endanger their wild numbers. Why you may ask, because poachers don't give a rats azz in selective, responisble or legal harvesting practices...they believe in the $3000 they get paid for each one ( gall bladder in this context)...then it becomes all about greed and we know where that leads. Whether or not its beaver pelts, tiger hides, buffalo hides, ivory tusks, rhino horn, etc etc you cant ignore the devastating affect that greed has historically had and currently still has on animal populations selling thier "parts" .

gearhounds · April 8, 2011, 10:48 AM

"Careful when waving the ignorance flag too aggressively or you might get wrapped up in the banner as well. As with many native medicines from around the world, not all of the animal-based products you mention are used out of ignorance or superstition. The same can be said for plant and mineral uses, too. In fact, western medicine has spent considerable time looking to how native medicine has managed to work so well for many treatments, be they Native American, Bushman, Asian, etc.

Bear gall bladder and bile contain chemicals that are indeed beneficial and are used in medical treatments, though often synthesized or extracted from other sources. These include ursodeoxycholic acid, taurine derivatives and chenodeoxycholic acid, for example."

Ridiculous, and you are missing the point, while strengthening mine. To slaughter (there is absolutely no other word that fits) animals for such a tiny fraction of the whole is not only the epitomy of selfish ignorance, it is a crime against nature and everything an outdoorsman/hunter/person of common sense should stand for. As you pointed out, most of these compounds can be produced synthetically, so there is no supportable reason to kill bears, tigers, etc for such selfish reasons. Just to clear here, we are not talking about harvesting a plant or mineral, or even using the byproducts of an existing industry, we are talking retarded, selfish and unneccessary continued destruction.

Hunter2678 · April 8, 2011, 10:52 AM

Well stated GH..

tazbigdog · April 10, 2011, 08:49 PM

It's against the law in Georgia to sell or purchase bear gall bladder!

•Selling or purchasing any game species or parts thereof, except antlers, hides, and tails of legally taken deer, tails of legally taken squirrels, and legally taken alligator products.

http://www.eregulations.com/georgia/...ul-activities/

Double Naught Spy · April 11, 2011, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Ridiculous, and you are missing the point, while strengthening mine. To slaughter (there is absolutely no other word that fits) animals for such a tiny fraction of the whole is not only the epitomy of selfish ignorance, it is a crime against nature and everything an outdoorsman/hunter/person of common sense should stand for. As you pointed out, most of these compounds can be produced synthetically, so there is no supportable reason to kill bears, tigers, etc for such selfish reasons. Just to clear here, we are not talking about harvesting a plant or mineral, or even using the byproducts of an existing industry, we are talking retarded, selfish and unneccessary continued destruction.

Boy, talk about missing the point. Bear gall and bladder use have been documented for more than 1000 years and for the last several hundred by westerners. It is considered as traditional and appropriate medicince by many peoples. The product has been shown to have medical benefits. So you can't claim the use of the product is out of ignorance and superstition. As such, your claim is ignorant.

I do see where you have changed from use of the products to hunting of the animals. As near as I can tell from USFWS and new account, the hunters are not hunting them out of any sort of ignorance. They hunters generally aren't using the products themselves. It is all about the money.

Quote:

we are talking retarded, selfish and unneccessary continued destruction.

Who determines it to be unnecessary? I agree with you, but that seems to be a very far-fetched claim by an outdoorsman/hunter/person of common sense which other such members here seem to think that just about any animal that has the potential to do harm to people should be hunted to the point of near eradication, excect saving some for the joy of hunting them so long as they are kept away from regular defenseless people.

So it seems to me that there are some very supportable reasons to be killing off carnivores, at least claimed by a large number of hunters even on this board. Personally, I don't agree with most of them. Heck, just look at those outdoorsmen/hunters/persons of common sense here who feel that every snake they see needs to be dispatched because they don't like snakes.

Sorry, but too many of the outdoorsmen/hunters/persons of common sense seem to have some huge double standards and oft seem predisposed to commit their own "crimes against nature" that they rationalize as justified, sometimes because they are indeed outdoorsmen and hunters.

It is naive to believe that any of the people involved in this process are what you consider to be "outdoorsmen/hunters/persons of common sense" who give an iota about what such folks should stand for. They don't share your values and don't care about your values. Just because you think they are doing wrong doesn't bother them one iota.

Gbro · April 11, 2011, 09:11 AM

So then the Ignorance and superstition labels should be on the Game managers and other wildlife professionals.
If a certain part of the animal I hunt has a legitimate medicinal value to it and because some exploit this same animal part I am treated just the same way.
When I purchase a tag, I should get a tag to go along with said animal part so that I can then sell it just like i can sell the hide.
There is nothing that fuels the black market more than a restricted product. all that dose is raises the price of the product/part.
Question for D N Spy,
Is there an medicinal value to the Snake Oil peddled in the old west?

Art Eatman · April 11, 2011, 09:12 AM

Look, DNS: The issue, based on reports in the news from wildlife agencies, is that the main reason for this gall-bladder deal with black bears is the sale into the Asian market for use as aphrodisiacs.

That there may be true medicinal uses is beside the point. That's not the cause of the poaching.

SFAIK, those who poach for gall bladders--so it is claimed by the game wardens, at least--do not utilize the rest of the bear. Shoot, cut and run is the common behavior.

gearhounds · April 13, 2011, 02:02 PM

+1. We're not talking about using the gall bladder, along with all the other parts from a game animal; we are in fact talking about the retarded, wanton wasteful destruction of said game animals by a group of criminals feeding the greed and superstition of other retards. In fact, please do not use the words sportsman, hunter, or outdoorsman in this thread. Feel free to liberally use terms like retard, poacher, criminal, or any other description of the opposite of everything a true sportsman should stand for.

markj · April 13, 2011, 04:35 PM

Quote:

the main reason for this gall-bladder deal with black bears is the sale into the Asian market for use as aphrodisiacs.

Reading that kinda had the opposite effect on me....

They actually use the bile produced by the gall bladder. In China they keep em in cages and have a stint installed so they can leech off a little as needed. Also do huge dogs like st bernards. These folks eat eggs boiled and wrapped in manure then buried for a thousand years

Heck in China they just isnt any "wildlife" as we know it, eaten up years ago during droughts I was told. But then again no road kill or deer to hit at night....

Different cultures.

April 2, 2011, 04:42 PM	#1
m17s_guy Member Join Date: February 1, 2011 Location: Georgia Posts: 92	Bear hunting and gall bladders... so im thinking of taking a guided hunt here in GA for some black bear, and found that ALL of the guide services require you to destroy the gall bladder during the field dress.... Anyone know why that is? Also my important question is what bullet / load i should be toting for my 150-200 lb class bear coming out of my rem700 308. this will be my first consideration on anything bigger than white tail or muley, and i dont want to have an iffy shot cause the bear undo suffering... any info would be appreciated __________________ if at first you dont succeed, get a bigger hammer!

April 2, 2011, 04:58 PM	#2
egor20 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2010 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,824	On the black market in certain Asian countries a bears gall bladder can go for up to $3.000 for medicinal purposes. There is a lot of poaching out there where people will shoot a bear just for the gall bladder. __________________ Chief stall mucker and grain chef Country don't mean dumb. Steven King. The Stand

April 2, 2011, 05:21 PM	#3
dalegribble Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2007 Posts: 861	why would guides required you to destroy the gall bladder? if i paid for a hunt and could sell the body parts afterwards it would just help pay for the hunt. __________________ Waltzes with woofs

April 3, 2011, 09:25 AM	#5
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	A black bear is no harder to kill than a white tail a well constructed 165 grain bullet should do just fine. __________________ * (Swinging club) Whack! whack! whack! * Nope, the old nag's still dead . (Capt Charlie)

April 5, 2011, 03:30 AM	#7
m17s_guy Member Join Date: February 1, 2011 Location: Georgia Posts: 92	thx for the info, didnt know that something as odd as a gall bladder would fetch big money on the (?) black market. maybe i should sell mine also thx for the tip on the 165gr bullet. i have some sitting on the shelf, and will have to dust them off and double check the zero on the old nikon before i bite the bullet and drop cash on the hunt. and dale. i do believe that in GA selling any part of ANY game animal is illegal. i could be wrong, but i do know the local sheriffs dept. asked us for assistance last fall in going to haul off a bunch of whitetail carcasses that some guy was attempting to sell to a charity (hunters for the hungry) and he got hit with a bunch of stuff including poaching, because he didnt have most of the hanging deer tagged. __________________ if at first you dont succeed, get a bigger hammer!

April 5, 2011, 01:47 PM	#8
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	Considering that Alaska has a lot more bears to hunt, we see a lot more poaching and illegal harvesting of various game for the purpose of unlawfully exporting. F&G performs sting ops where they pose as customers and catch the guides doing a lot of dirt. They often find freezers full of body parts at the guides homes and businesses. I think that guides who insist on destroying the valuable parts so they ensure there is no illegal harvesting is a responsible act, and I commend those guides for doing that. __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

April 7, 2011, 06:13 AM	#9
pablowest Junior Member Join Date: April 6, 2011 Posts: 3	Hi alloy, I like your link. It really help me a lot. Thanks.

April 7, 2011, 08:00 AM	#10
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Do some browsing on the black market in parts of various animals. It's astounding. Yemenis pay $30,000 to $50,000 for rhino horns to use as handles on daggers. Asiatics are big into aphrodisiacs. AmerInds at one time were killing deer and elk while in velvet, taking only the antlers for sale into that Asian market and leaving the rest of the animal. Same sort of thing for poaching of bears. And, of course, ivory...

April 7, 2011, 08:55 AM	#11
gearhounds Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2011 Location: M'burg WV Posts: 332	Ivory was valued for a different selfish reason as is Rhino horn; ignorance and superstition are the main reasons gall bladders, tiger penis's, antlers in velvet, etc are so desirable. Maybe as a nation we should begin a program of harvesting gall bladders from the meat industry (cows, pigs, goats, sheep, etc) and flooding the market with "bear gall bladders" until no one can tell what they'll get. The problem was epidemic in the late 80's-early 90's, and lord knows how many game animals were slaughtered and left to rot. __________________ Busting thugs since 1992

April 7, 2011, 07:31 PM	#13
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	We were in the context of animals, not modern pharmaceuticals. I drifted a bit into the wider black market, just as an idea for others to find a dab of info on the broader subject...

April 7, 2011, 08:04 PM	#14
Vt.birdhunter Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2009 Posts: 637	If I legally take a black bear during bear season, on my own land, can I LEGALLY sell the gall bladder for anywhere close to $3000???

April 8, 2011, 08:36 AM	#16
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Pretty much, all the articles I've read over the last twenty or more years about the black market trade in animal parts discuss the use in Asia as aphrodisiacs. That seems to be the major market, moreso than real-world medical uses. I'm not sure there's much true medicinal use for tiger whiskers. Sixty years ago, the big deal in the US among teeny-boppers about aphrodisiacs was "Spanish Fly". Cantharides. There was almost as much misinformation passed around about that as there is about guns at this website. (The operative word is "almost".)

April 8, 2011, 09:06 AM	#17
Hunter2678 Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 235	Anyime you're ok with selling animal parts for big $$ you're going to do more harm than good to the species you take it from..unless you can legitimately renew & farm these animals for these purposes, you'll always endanger their wild numbers. Why you may ask, because poachers don't give a rats azz in selective, responisble or legal harvesting practices...they believe in the $3000 they get paid for each one ( gall bladder in this context)...then it becomes all about greed and we know where that leads. Whether or not its beaver pelts, tiger hides, buffalo hides, ivory tusks, rhino horn, etc etc you cant ignore the devastating affect that greed has historically had and currently still has on animal populations selling thier "parts" . Last edited by Hunter2678; April 8, 2011 at 09:12 AM.

April 8, 2011, 10:48 AM	#18
gearhounds Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2011 Location: M'burg WV Posts: 332	"Careful when waving the ignorance flag too aggressively or you might get wrapped up in the banner as well. As with many native medicines from around the world, not all of the animal-based products you mention are used out of ignorance or superstition. The same can be said for plant and mineral uses, too. In fact, western medicine has spent considerable time looking to how native medicine has managed to work so well for many treatments, be they Native American, Bushman, Asian, etc. Bear gall bladder and bile contain chemicals that are indeed beneficial and are used in medical treatments, though often synthesized or extracted from other sources. These include ursodeoxycholic acid, taurine derivatives and chenodeoxycholic acid, for example." Ridiculous, and you are missing the point, while strengthening mine. To slaughter (there is absolutely no other word that fits) animals for such a tiny fraction of the whole is not only the epitomy of selfish ignorance, it is a crime against nature and everything an outdoorsman/hunter/person of common sense should stand for. As you pointed out, most of these compounds can be produced synthetically, so there is no supportable reason to kill bears, tigers, etc for such selfish reasons. Just to clear here, we are not talking about harvesting a plant or mineral, or even using the byproducts of an existing industry, we are talking retarded, selfish and unneccessary continued destruction. __________________ Busting thugs since 1992

April 8, 2011, 10:52 AM	#19
Hunter2678 Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 235	Well stated GH..

April 10, 2011, 08:49 PM	#20
tazbigdog Member Join Date: March 7, 2011 Location: AZ Posts: 59	It's against the law in Georgia to sell or purchase bear gall bladder! •Selling or purchasing any game species or parts thereof, except antlers, hides, and tails of legally taken deer, tails of legally taken squirrels, and legally taken alligator products. http://www.eregulations.com/georgia/...ul-activities/ __________________ "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience." Julius Caesar

April 11, 2011, 09:11 AM	#22
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	So then the Ignorance and superstition labels should be on the Game managers and other wildlife professionals. If a certain part of the animal I hunt has a legitimate medicinal value to it and because some exploit this same animal part I am treated just the same way. When I purchase a tag, I should get a tag to go along with said animal part so that I can then sell it just like i can sell the hide. There is nothing that fuels the black market more than a restricted product. all that dose is raises the price of the product/part. Question for D N Spy, Is there an medicinal value to the Snake Oil peddled in the old west? __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

April 11, 2011, 09:12 AM	#23
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Look, DNS: The issue, based on reports in the news from wildlife agencies, is that the main reason for this gall-bladder deal with black bears is the sale into the Asian market for use as aphrodisiacs. That there may be true medicinal uses is beside the point. That's not the cause of the poaching. SFAIK, those who poach for gall bladders--so it is claimed by the game wardens, at least--do not utilize the rest of the bear. Shoot, cut and run is the common behavior.

April 13, 2011, 02:02 PM	#24
gearhounds Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2011 Location: M'burg WV Posts: 332	+1. We're not talking about using the gall bladder, along with all the other parts from a game animal; we are in fact talking about the retarded, wanton wasteful destruction of said game animals by a group of criminals feeding the greed and superstition of other retards. In fact, please do not use the words sportsman, hunter, or outdoorsman in this thread. Feel free to liberally use terms like retard, poacher, criminal, or any other description of the opposite of everything a true sportsman should stand for. __________________ Busting thugs since 1992 Last edited by gearhounds; April 13, 2011 at 03:07 PM.