End run around the 2nd amendment, EPA lead ban.

Hammerhead · January 30, 2013, 02:14 PM

The Brady campaign announced they will be petitioning the EPA to ban all lead ammo. In the past the EPA had enough Republican influence and internal 2A backers that they refused to consider it.

Now FNC reports that is changing. Pro 2A EPA officials might be getting nervous about their jobs.

Anyhow, just a heads up that a lead ban might be coming, as it requires no Congressional action.

BATF is also looking at micro stamping ammo again. I'm sure the new BATF chief just appointed by Obama is not pro 2A.

I'm going to continue to stock up.

Brian Pfleuger · January 30, 2013, 02:25 PM

It really doesn't have anything to do with the EPAs opinion or influence of any politician.

The law specifically denies the EPAs regulation of ammunition and bullets under TCSA 3(2)(B)(v).

Dr Big Bird PhD · January 30, 2013, 02:25 PM

How in the world has our system devolved so much that an entire mineral can be banned without due process?

vranasaurus · January 30, 2013, 05:06 PM

As mentioned the EPA lacks the authority. On another note the banning of all lead ammo would have a tough time in the courts. Firearms are useless without ammo and lead ammo "is overwhelming chosen by law abiding citizens" for every lawful purpose for which they use firearms.

testuser · January 30, 2013, 05:58 PM

If lead were toxic once in the ground, then most of the state of Virginia would be a uninhabitable. Pretty sure the Civil War deposit a pound or two in some concentrated areas...

speedrrracer · January 30, 2013, 06:15 PM

Quote:

How in the world has our system devolved so much that an entire mineral can be banned without due process?

This sounds as though you are suggesting a mineral has constitutional rights

Jimboski · January 30, 2013, 06:37 PM

They better not do that! Or give us another way to make ammo in an equal quantity...I need ammo...

2ndsojourn · January 30, 2013, 09:19 PM

Would zinc work?

Daggitt · January 30, 2013, 09:22 PM

No, Zinc does not work very well.

vranasaurus · January 30, 2013, 09:38 PM

Zinc only has 60% of the density of lead. Zinc and Iron have similar densities.

You can use copper, tungsten, bismuth, etc.. but they all are considerably rarer and more costly than lead.

2ndsojourn · January 30, 2013, 09:55 PM

Depleted uranium is pretty dense!

UtopiaTexasG19 · January 30, 2013, 10:49 PM

The good news is that if they banned lead use for bullets all the inner city gangs would obey the law and there would be no crimes using guns.

vranasaurus · January 30, 2013, 11:05 PM

The real problem with many of the things that would replace lead is that the ammo would then be cosidered armor piercing.

9mm · January 30, 2013, 11:09 PM

Lead came from the ground and we are just putting it back in. What is their problem! this is not some lab made chemical!!!!!!!!!

Dr Big Bird PhD · January 31, 2013, 02:29 AM

Quote:

The good news is that if they banned lead use for bullets all the inner city gangs would obey the law and there would be no crimes using guns.

hahah

Hammerhead · January 31, 2013, 03:04 AM

Quote:

It really doesn't have anything to do with the EPAs opinion or influence of any politician.

The law specifically denies the EPAs regulation of ammunition and bullets under TCSA 3(2)(B)(v).

Well that's good news, thanks.
Guess Fox news had that one wrong.

BitterTait · January 31, 2013, 03:30 AM

Lead ban is like the Executive Order or UN Treaty urban ledgend, a good sales pitch or forum post, but no basis in reality.

UtopiaTexasG19 · January 31, 2013, 07:48 AM

If they banned lead for making bullets I would switch to Galena!

BoogieMan · January 31, 2013, 07:59 AM

Im in NJ where we have specific laws regarding Pinelands in addition to wetlands, etc... The Pineland commission has attempted to block expansion and shut the club down altogether over lead contamination. Our backstops are steel with a plastic liner under sand. The lead has to be collected and disposed of periodically. My range will through you out if your caught purposely not reaching the lead traps, no scatter guns allowed.
Is what Im saying is that lead may be difficult to ban as a whole but they can take it away a little at a time. Think waterfowl hunting. No more lead shot.

JimDandy · January 31, 2013, 09:28 AM

There is a definite chain of events in leadshot in wetlands. And leadshot is not in and of itself banned. I realize you can make a slippery slope chipping away at a right argument here, but I don't think it has enough wing area to actually fly. At least as far as the leadshot/wetlands argument.

Slamfire · January 31, 2013, 09:48 AM

I am going to tell you something you don’t want to hear: lead is bad for you!

I run into denialists all the time, I think they think that by denying lead toxicity shooters somehow are protecting shooting rights.

The attack on our shooting rights is a much larger effort.

Still to get back on track, avoid lead. The current OSHA standards limit workers to 50 micrograms per cubic meter of lead. When you breathe lead vapors lead gets into your body and stays there. Can take years to get lead out of your blood, tissue, fat. Just Google Lead toxicity to find out what it does to humans. Based on my research the greatest source of lead contamination is shooting lead bullets in handguns, and indoor pistol ranges.

This chart shows that each time you pull the trigger on a 38 Special loaded with 158 grain lead bullets, that round puts out 5600 micrograms of lead in the air. That is one heck of a lot of lead particles in the air.

Shoot in open air, clean up your hands before eating, and I don’t know what to do about the clothes. There are lots of lead particles on your clothing after shooting.

Brian Pfleuger · January 31, 2013, 09:57 AM

The toxicity of lead is a completely different question than it's danger to the environment or individual shooters because it's used for bullets.

Lead has already been totally, or nearly so, replaced in waterfowl hunting. No other form of shooting or hunting is dangerous to people, animals or the environment, except indoor shooting ranges, which already have their own (effective or otherwise) regulations governing exposure/abatement.

UtopiaTexasG19 · January 31, 2013, 12:58 PM

"There are lots of lead particles on your clothing after shooting."

I shoot while naked so no problems here.....
except in the prone position!

zincwarrior · January 31, 2013, 01:05 PM

Quote:

No, Zinc does not work very well.

Zinc respectfuly disagrees and proffers he works quite hard from 9.15 to 9.45AM.

As noted there currently is a law, and IIRC the EPA has publicly stated in the past it does not have to the right to rtegulate lead. I do know this tactic has regularly been brought up by Brady et al in the past.

speedrrracer · January 31, 2013, 03:18 PM

Well no one can trust you because, as a zinc warrior, you clearly have a conflict of interest

unless you'll have us believe you're a sunscreen pimp

January 30, 2013, 02:14 PM	#1
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	End run around the 2nd amendment, EPA lead ban. The Brady campaign announced they will be petitioning the EPA to ban all lead ammo. In the past the EPA had enough Republican influence and internal 2A backers that they refused to consider it. Now FNC reports that is changing. Pro 2A EPA officials might be getting nervous about their jobs. Anyhow, just a heads up that a lead ban might be coming, as it requires no Congressional action. BATF is also looking at micro stamping ammo again. I'm sure the new BATF chief just appointed by Obama is not pro 2A. I'm going to continue to stock up.

January 30, 2013, 02:25 PM	#2
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	It really doesn't have anything to do with the EPAs opinion or influence of any politician. The law specifically denies the EPAs regulation of ammunition and bullets under TCSA 3(2)(B)(v). __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

January 30, 2013, 02:25 PM	#3
Dr Big Bird PhD Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2012 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 779	How in the world has our system devolved so much that an entire mineral can be banned without due process? __________________ I told the new me, "Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'" But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back." Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor

January 31, 2013, 03:30 AM	#17
BitterTait Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 144	Lead ban is like the Executive Order or UN Treaty urban ledgend, a good sales pitch or forum post, but no basis in reality. __________________ Powered by VI!

January 31, 2013, 07:59 AM	#19
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	Im in NJ where we have specific laws regarding Pinelands in addition to wetlands, etc... The Pineland commission has attempted to block expansion and shut the club down altogether over lead contamination. Our backstops are steel with a plastic liner under sand. The lead has to be collected and disposed of periodically. My range will through you out if your caught purposely not reaching the lead traps, no scatter guns allowed. Is what Im saying is that lead may be difficult to ban as a whole but they can take it away a little at a time. Think waterfowl hunting. No more lead shot. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

January 30, 2013, 05:06 PM	#4
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	As mentioned the EPA lacks the authority. On another note the banning of all lead ammo would have a tough time in the courts. Firearms are useless without ammo and lead ammo "is overwhelming chosen by law abiding citizens" for every lawful purpose for which they use firearms.

January 30, 2013, 05:58 PM	#5
testuser Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Posts: 495	If lead were toxic once in the ground, then most of the state of Virginia would be a uninhabitable. Pretty sure the Civil War deposit a pound or two in some concentrated areas...

January 30, 2013, 06:37 PM	#7
Jimboski Member Join Date: January 28, 2013 Location: New Mexico Posts: 32	They better not do that! Or give us another way to make ammo in an equal quantity...I need ammo...

January 30, 2013, 09:19 PM	#8
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 1,416	Would zinc work?

January 30, 2013, 09:22 PM	#9
Daggitt Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2011 Posts: 321	No, Zinc does not work very well.

January 30, 2013, 09:38 PM	#10
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	Zinc only has 60% of the density of lead. Zinc and Iron have similar densities. You can use copper, tungsten, bismuth, etc.. but they all are considerably rarer and more costly than lead.

January 30, 2013, 09:55 PM	#11
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 1,416	Depleted uranium is pretty dense!

January 30, 2013, 10:49 PM	#12
UtopiaTexasG19 Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Location: S.E. Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 743	The good news is that if they banned lead use for bullets all the inner city gangs would obey the law and there would be no crimes using guns.

January 30, 2013, 11:05 PM	#13
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	The real problem with many of the things that would replace lead is that the ammo would then be cosidered armor piercing.

January 30, 2013, 11:09 PM	#14
9mm Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2011 Location: Land of the Free Posts: 2,834	Lead came from the ground and we are just putting it back in. What is their problem! this is not some lab made chemical!!!!!!!!!

January 31, 2013, 07:48 AM	#18
UtopiaTexasG19 Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Location: S.E. Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 743	If they banned lead for making bullets I would switch to Galena!

January 31, 2013, 09:28 AM	#20
JimDandy Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2012 Posts: 2,556	There is a definite chain of events in leadshot in wetlands. And leadshot is not in and of itself banned. I realize you can make a slippery slope chipping away at a right argument here, but I don't think it has enough wing area to actually fly. At least as far as the leadshot/wetlands argument.

January 31, 2013, 09:48 AM	#21
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	I am going to tell you something you don’t want to hear: lead is bad for you! I run into denialists all the time, I think they think that by denying lead toxicity shooters somehow are protecting shooting rights. The attack on our shooting rights is a much larger effort. Still to get back on track, avoid lead. The current OSHA standards limit workers to 50 micrograms per cubic meter of lead. When you breathe lead vapors lead gets into your body and stays there. Can take years to get lead out of your blood, tissue, fat. Just Google Lead toxicity to find out what it does to humans. Based on my research the greatest source of lead contamination is shooting lead bullets in handguns, and indoor pistol ranges. This chart shows that each time you pull the trigger on a 38 Special loaded with 158 grain lead bullets, that round puts out 5600 micrograms of lead in the air. That is one heck of a lot of lead particles in the air. Shoot in open air, clean up your hands before eating, and I don’t know what to do about the clothes. There are lots of lead particles on your clothing after shooting. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

January 31, 2013, 09:57 AM	#22
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	The toxicity of lead is a completely different question than it's danger to the environment or individual shooters because it's used for bullets. Lead has already been totally, or nearly so, replaced in waterfowl hunting. No other form of shooting or hunting is dangerous to people, animals or the environment, except indoor shooting ranges, which already have their own (effective or otherwise) regulations governing exposure/abatement. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

January 31, 2013, 12:58 PM	#23
UtopiaTexasG19 Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Location: S.E. Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 743	"There are lots of lead particles on your clothing after shooting." I shoot while naked so no problems here..... except in the prone position!

January 31, 2013, 03:18 PM	#25
speedrrracer Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 317	Well no one can trust you because, as a zinc warrior, you clearly have a conflict of interest unless you'll have us believe you're a sunscreen pimp

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