Beginning SHotgun Training for HD

The Rabbi · August 1, 2005, 05:44 PM

I am planning on givig a class for self defense in the home, based on the NRA course. But I also want to have a section on shotguns, picking one, etc. That will include some range time.
What would be good exercises for a beginner? Obviously having some kind of stationary target and shooting it while standing is a good beginning. But beyond that? Shooting behind cover? Shooting while crouched? Shooting moving forward? Any ideas welcome.

**Bud Helms** · August 1, 2005, 07:27 PM

Let me get this right ... you are planning on conducting a class in self defense and are asking how to instruct the class? Or at least how to build the lesson plan?

My question for you is, "Have you ever attended a class in self defense in the home?" If so, did you consider it a good class? And if so, why not use that lesson plan? If you've not attended a home defense course, what makes you confident enough to teach it yourself? The NRA conducts a series of courses which are designed to produce instructors of their courses.

Your intentions are not good enough here. Skill and knowledge are required. Some skill as an instructor is needed also. Not everyone is cut out to teach or instruct a room full of people, not to mention a range full of armed students.

The Rabbi · August 1, 2005, 07:43 PM

No, you dont have it right. Go back and get someone to read my post to you. I came here looking for advice, not a lecture.

Denny Hansen · August 1, 2005, 08:19 PM

Rabbi-
I read your post the same way sensop did, but I did not see where he was giving you a "lecture."

If you don't have the knowledge/expertise/experience to instruct on shotguns, I think it would be better to stick with handguns and point your students in the direction of a qualified shotgun instructor.

Denny

Blue Heeler · August 1, 2005, 08:22 PM

If you expect most of your class to be 'beginners' it is likely that not many of them will have had much to do with shotguns. In that case the weapon(s) you provide for training should be simple to operate. I would steer clear of auto-loaders and go for 12ga Double Barreled. Also, I would avoid heavy loads like OO Buck. Birdshot is best for starters.
Straightforward standing shooting at 7-10 yards would be good.
Shotguns are not easy to shoot well. I wouldn't complicate matters with complex drills. The first thing they should all learn is to get a good stance and hold the stock well in. Hope this helps.

BreacherUp! · August 1, 2005, 08:31 PM

Rabbi, agreed that you should be certified. I f you are here's my suggestions:
1) Start out with safety, basic nomenclature and weapon operations.
2) Maunal of arms. Before you even get to the line, each shooter should be comfortable with operating the weapon.
3) Stance
4) Dry fire manipulations
5) Start from 3-5 yards (birdshot was a good suggestion) and move out to 7.
For a beginner class, that is all that I see needed.

The Rabbi · August 1, 2005, 08:35 PM

Well, I can certainly agree with that. I think either double barrel or pump, either in 12 or 20ga is a good place to start. A 20ga with the lightest loads is a good intro. A 12ga with buck is probably a bad place to start. Most people have the idea (in some cases well founded) that a shotgun will throw the shooter off his feet and be very painful. It doesnt have to be like that.
I am also trying to be aware of what kind of gun people will end up with. No one is going to pay $600 for the super-tactical 12ga with all bells and whistles just to stick it in the closet or near the bed for the next 10 years. They will probably end up with a used 12 or 20ga pump, maybe the 870 Youth in 20ga I just bought for my son.

Again, I have no questions really about the classroom part and basic gun handling. But the NRA course did not address shotguns, a failing I didn't appreciate at the time.

USP45usp · August 1, 2005, 08:40 PM

I am an "apprentice" at the moment so I can get my NRA certs. I'm just on basic handgun and basic home defense right now.

I know just from watching the Instructor that I'm the "gofor" for has about 7 years of instruction under his belt and he's still revising his teaching style and has gone through more schools then I could ever afford.

I would stick to what you know and then get some certified training in various other weapons.

You have to remember, what you tell and show the class can come back to bite you in the butt if what you taught is used and the student gets into trouble or ends up shooting themselves using your techniques.

And no, no waivers will stand up in court.

Stick with what you know and take classes/courses so you can expand what you know.

Wayne

The Rabbi · August 1, 2005, 08:43 PM

Quote:

You have to remember, what you tell and show the class can come back to bite you in the butt if what you taught is used and the student gets into trouble or ends up shooting themselves using your techniques.

Thats what the practicing attorney is for.

outlier · August 1, 2005, 09:24 PM

This just isn't right...

Trip20 · August 1, 2005, 09:55 PM

If you end up giving a class... I suggest using only pictures, movies, and one of these for visual reference:

CabinJohn · August 2, 2005, 09:18 AM

Rabbi - I think you are on the right track, as many people taking a "Home Defense" course are likely to be novice shooters who are going to hear or read (such as advice given on this forum) about using a shotgun for home defense rather than starting with a handgun.

Sound advice, but if one has never held one, fired one, or perhaps even been introduced to different shotgun types (single barrel, double barrel, pump, auto...) then how are they to make an informed decision?

I think BreacherUp and Blue Heeler are on the right track. I think getting an introduction to various shotgun actions and actually firing a few shots from 7 to 10 yards (definitely with bird shot) is all I would expect to accomplish, and not try to get too advanced in shooting from cover, moving, etc. Leave that for a Shotgun Home Defense course.

bclark1 · August 2, 2005, 09:21 AM

i really feel like you're being overdefensive... people gave you sound advice and it wasn't what you wanted to hear. it's fine to coach a friend newer to shooting than you, but i have to agree that you should not be offering formal instruction if you are not certified by a legitimate authority to do so. forget legalities, this could be someone's life at stake, perhaps more than just their's, and improper training could cost them that.

The Rabbi · August 2, 2005, 09:27 AM

Quote:

I think BreacherUp and Blue Heeler are on the right track. I think getting an introduction to various shotgun actions and actually firing a few shots from 7 to 10 yards (definitely with bird shot) is all I would expect to accomplish, and not try to get too advanced in shooting from cover, moving, etc. Leave that for a Shotgun Home Defense course.

CabinJohn, yes this is of course one of the dangers of an intro class--you want to cram everything you know into it and forget that there is a long learning process. The worst thing would be to make it so arduous that no one would take another class, much less get a gun and practice with it.

August 1, 2005, 05:44 PM	#1
The Rabbi Junior member Join Date: February 3, 2005 Posts: 131	Beginning SHotgun Training for HD I am planning on givig a class for self defense in the home, based on the NRA course. But I also want to have a section on shotguns, picking one, etc. That will include some range time. What would be good exercises for a beginner? Obviously having some kind of stationary target and shooting it while standing is a good beginning. But beyond that? Shooting behind cover? Shooting while crouched? Shooting moving forward? Any ideas welcome.

August 1, 2005, 08:19 PM	#4
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	Rabbi- I read your post the same way sensop did, but I did not see where he was giving you a "lecture." If you don't have the knowledge/expertise/experience to instruct on shotguns, I think it would be better to stick with handguns and point your students in the direction of a qualified shotgun instructor. Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

August 1, 2005, 08:31 PM	#6
BreacherUp! Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2005 Posts: 566	Rabbi, agreed that you should be certified. I f you are here's my suggestions: 1) Start out with safety, basic nomenclature and weapon operations. 2) Maunal of arms. Before you even get to the line, each shooter should be comfortable with operating the weapon. 3) Stance 4) Dry fire manipulations 5) Start from 3-5 yards (birdshot was a good suggestion) and move out to 7. For a beginner class, that is all that I see needed. __________________ Life's tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid.

August 1, 2005, 09:55 PM	#11
Trip20 Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Posts: 2,181	If you end up giving a class... I suggest using only pictures, movies, and one of these for visual reference: Last edited by Trip20; November 16, 2005 at 12:30 AM.

August 2, 2005, 09:18 AM	#12
CabinJohn Member Join Date: July 5, 2005 Location: NW Mass Posts: 61	Introduction vs Training Rabbi - I think you are on the right track, as many people taking a "Home Defense" course are likely to be novice shooters who are going to hear or read (such as advice given on this forum) about using a shotgun for home defense rather than starting with a handgun. Sound advice, but if one has never held one, fired one, or perhaps even been introduced to different shotgun types (single barrel, double barrel, pump, auto...) then how are they to make an informed decision? I think BreacherUp and Blue Heeler are on the right track. I think getting an introduction to various shotgun actions and actually firing a few shots from 7 to 10 yards (definitely with bird shot) is all I would expect to accomplish, and not try to get too advanced in shooting from cover, moving, etc. Leave that for a Shotgun Home Defense course.

August 1, 2005, 07:27 PM	#2
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Let me get this right ... you are planning on conducting a class in self defense and are asking how to instruct the class? Or at least how to build the lesson plan? My question for you is, "Have you ever attended a class in self defense in the home?" If so, did you consider it a good class? And if so, why not use that lesson plan? If you've not attended a home defense course, what makes you confident enough to teach it yourself? The NRA conducts a series of courses which are designed to produce instructors of their courses. Your intentions are not good enough here. Skill and knowledge are required. Some skill as an instructor is needed also. Not everyone is cut out to teach or instruct a room full of people, not to mention a range full of armed students.

August 1, 2005, 07:43 PM	#3
The Rabbi Junior member Join Date: February 3, 2005 Posts: 131	No, you dont have it right. Go back and get someone to read my post to you. I came here looking for advice, not a lecture.

August 1, 2005, 08:22 PM	#5
Blue Heeler Junior member Join Date: October 4, 1999 Location: Queensland Posts: 1,043	If you expect most of your class to be 'beginners' it is likely that not many of them will have had much to do with shotguns. In that case the weapon(s) you provide for training should be simple to operate. I would steer clear of auto-loaders and go for 12ga Double Barreled. Also, I would avoid heavy loads like OO Buck. Birdshot is best for starters. Straightforward standing shooting at 7-10 yards would be good. Shotguns are not easy to shoot well. I wouldn't complicate matters with complex drills. The first thing they should all learn is to get a good stance and hold the stock well in. Hope this helps.

August 1, 2005, 08:35 PM	#7
The Rabbi Junior member Join Date: February 3, 2005 Posts: 131	Well, I can certainly agree with that. I think either double barrel or pump, either in 12 or 20ga is a good place to start. A 20ga with the lightest loads is a good intro. A 12ga with buck is probably a bad place to start. Most people have the idea (in some cases well founded) that a shotgun will throw the shooter off his feet and be very painful. It doesnt have to be like that. I am also trying to be aware of what kind of gun people will end up with. No one is going to pay $600 for the super-tactical 12ga with all bells and whistles just to stick it in the closet or near the bed for the next 10 years. They will probably end up with a used 12 or 20ga pump, maybe the 870 Youth in 20ga I just bought for my son. Again, I have no questions really about the classroom part and basic gun handling. But the NRA course did not address shotguns, a failing I didn't appreciate at the time.

August 1, 2005, 08:40 PM	#8
USP45usp Junior member Join Date: May 17, 2000 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 3,427	I am an "apprentice" at the moment so I can get my NRA certs. I'm just on basic handgun and basic home defense right now. I know just from watching the Instructor that I'm the "gofor" for has about 7 years of instruction under his belt and he's still revising his teaching style and has gone through more schools then I could ever afford. I would stick to what you know and then get some certified training in various other weapons. You have to remember, what you tell and show the class can come back to bite you in the butt if what you taught is used and the student gets into trouble or ends up shooting themselves using your techniques. And no, no waivers will stand up in court. Stick with what you know and take classes/courses so you can expand what you know. Wayne

August 1, 2005, 09:24 PM	#10
outlier Member Join Date: May 6, 2005 Posts: 47	This just isn't right...

August 2, 2005, 09:21 AM	#13
bclark1 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,531	i really feel like you're being overdefensive... people gave you sound advice and it wasn't what you wanted to hear. it's fine to coach a friend newer to shooting than you, but i have to agree that you should not be offering formal instruction if you are not certified by a legitimate authority to do so. forget legalities, this could be someone's life at stake, perhaps more than just their's, and improper training could cost them that.

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