? for LEO's: Have you ever fought for your weapon?

OneInTheChamber · June 23, 2006, 12:20 PM

How many LEO's here have had to fight for controlth of eir weapon from a perp's attack?

What was the outcome?

Is it just a routine thing or a couple of times in a career?

What holster were you wearing?

Thanks

Rainbow Six · June 23, 2006, 02:23 PM

Once in 13+ years on the road... and I won. You'll never be as scared as you are when someone is trying to disarm you. At the time my holster was a Safariland Level I. Don't remember the model #.

ISP2605 · June 23, 2006, 04:45 PM

Another Troop and I with 2 subjects. Afterwards we found the other Troop's gun and part of the holster had been ripped off his gun belt and was laying in the grass. Found mine was unsnapped which we assume the subject did.
Another time had one grab for mine but he never got a hold of it.
The 3rd time I was transferring custody of an arrestee to a city officer who was going to transport the subject in their van. The subject was handcuffed behind his back. The city officer put his cuffs on the subject and was removing mine when the subject grabbed onto the city officer's Model 10 and was trying to pull it out of the holster. As soon as the city officer yelled "he has my gun" I took him down, hard. The subject sued both me and the city officer and we went to fed court for 1983 action. Jury really wasn't interested in his side of the story when both I and the city officer testified that he had tried to remove the gun from the holster. His defense was he thought he was going to fall forward so he just grabbed on to what he could reach to keep from falling. Jury didn't buy that defense at all.
Our holsters were Safariland Level I.

OneInTheChamber · June 23, 2006, 10:48 PM

Wow. Scary stuff.

So level I is just tension right? And then level II is tension + thumb break, and level III is tension + thumb break + having to twist the weapon a little or something right?

Thanks guys! Keep those stories coming!

Capt. Charlie · June 23, 2006, 11:00 PM

Yes, twice. One was during a neighborhood dispute (more like the Hatfields & McCoys) when a goofy woman tried to get my gun, not to shoot me, but to shoot the other side. A 360 spin & take down stopped that.

Second time involved a theft suspect fleeing. I caught him & he tried for my weapon. A knee to the cajones stopped that cold

.

chrisandclauida2 · June 23, 2006, 11:25 PM

i was escorting an inmate in the county hospital on a Friday night once and had a snatch attempt. a quick backhand solved it but it was scary. the person who tried for my weapon was a prisoner of a police officer who was cuffed in front and was allowed to sit in the hall way.

i always put my inmates in the back corner of the room facing a wall. this is especially important in a place where you have probably 10 prisoners and 50 other patients all in a hall way.

Blackwater OPS · June 23, 2006, 11:51 PM

Nope, it has never happened to me. When in uniform I use a triple retention holster.

OneInTheChamber · June 24, 2006, 02:35 PM

blackwater; exactly what does a triple retention holster have on it? Thanks.

Jeepmark2005 · June 24, 2006, 02:43 PM

Rention level means how many weapon retention devices a holster has. Level one is just a snap across the back of the gun. Level two could be two snaps or an internal retention device that requires a specific movement to unlock the gun and so on

chrisandclauida2 · June 25, 2006, 01:38 AM

most dont discuss exactly what steps are needed to draw from a security holster. suffice to say a triple retention is almost impossible to snatch from. you are more likely to have a failure of the stitching than get the holster out anyway but the exact steps that the officer performs. they are made so only the wearer can easily perform the needed steps.

OneInTheChamber · June 25, 2006, 11:29 AM

I totally understand that. It's a good thing for me; as I want to join LE.

How come not all officers use one then? To me that is a pretty easy fix to a huge weak spot.

Blackwater OPS · June 25, 2006, 11:56 AM

The advantage of a triple rentention holster in that it is easier to retain, is not as important to some as being able to draw the weapon as quickly as possible.

Personally I think with training the lvl III does not slow me down at all vs any other thumb release holster, and I know I am more likely to be killed with my own gun or my partners than any other.

TexasCop · June 25, 2006, 04:13 PM

USed to work in a much larger community with several ethnic clubs that would get WAY over the fire occupancy limit, and every time we had to go in and do anything in the club you would just feel people tugging at your gun and equipment as you were walking through the clubs. The first time it happened I had a plain level 1 thumbsnap holster, the next day I went out and bought the safariland level 3, still had to keep your hands on your stuff but the comfort feeling was a little bit highter.

then fighting with a nutjob in front of a Circle K in the parking lot, he decided to go after it and I wasn't carrying a back up piece at the time, so we wrestled around for a bit until my backup showed and we got him into custody. Thankfully at that time I already had the level 3, I've carried nothing else for the last 14 years.

shooter_john · June 25, 2006, 05:56 PM

When I was in the academy, we did weapon retention for about a week, and by about the third day, I had about a 70% sucess rate disarming my partner (Glock 22 in Safariland Level III) and we found him to be particularly susceptible to rear attacks. Thugs know what gear we use, and they practice with it just like we do, NEVER get the mindset that your gear is perfect. I actually had a lot more trouble getting the guns with mounted lights out of the Safariland II's than I did the level III's, because they seem to be stiffer and they cover more of the gun. The hard construction of the level II's make you draw at a somewhat specific angle or else your not gonna get the weapon out, and we found that it was somewhat difficult to get that angle if you were not the one wearing the holster. I personally prefer the light capability to the extra retention strap.

fastman · June 25, 2006, 05:58 PM

Hello all, new here.

From Blackwater OPS:

"The advantage of a triple rentention holster in that it is easier to retain, is not as important to some as being able to draw the weapon as quickly as possible.

Personally I think with training the lvl III does not slow me down at all vs any other thumb release holster, and I know I am more likely to be killed with my own gun or my partners than any other."

This is my feeling also, just rolling around with a level I and or some II's and your firearm will fall out of the holster.

ltdave · June 25, 2006, 06:50 PM

i carried my King Cobra in a Don Hume Level II. thumb break and tension. it DID require a very specific angle...

i was only in one situation where i could have had to fight for my pistol but it never came to that. i was working security at a basketball (thug ball) game and there was a near riot break out right afterwards. my partner had a guy grab for his gun but he was taken down with a quick jab to the jaw and a responding backup had his entire holster torn off his sam browne. he stepped on it for retention and arm barred the offender...

no other time did i have to worry about it. albeit i was only in the LE job for about 2 years...

david

View Poll Results: LEO ONLY: HAVE YOU FOUGHT FOR YOUR WEAPON?
YES: once or twice	8	38.10%
YES: Many, many times	2	9.52%
NO: Never had to.	11	52.38%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

June 23, 2006, 12:20 PM	#1
OneInTheChamber Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Posts: 789	? for LEO's: Have you ever fought for your weapon? How many LEO's here have had to fight for controlth of eir weapon from a perp's attack? What was the outcome? Is it just a routine thing or a couple of times in a career? What holster were you wearing? Thanks

June 23, 2006, 02:23 PM	#2
Rainbow Six Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2000 Location: West Georgia, USA Posts: 1,314	Once in 13+ years on the road... and I won. You'll never be as scared as you are when someone is trying to disarm you. At the time my holster was a Safariland Level I. Don't remember the model #. __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum... "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

June 23, 2006, 11:00 PM	#5
Capt. Charlie Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: Steubenville, OH Posts: 4,446	Yes, twice. One was during a neighborhood dispute (more like the Hatfields & McCoys) when a goofy woman tried to get my gun, not to shoot me, but to shoot the other side. A 360 spin & take down stopped that. Second time involved a theft suspect fleeing. I caught him & he tried for my weapon. A knee to the cajones stopped that cold . __________________ TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does *your* post make *you?* I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do. --Capt. Charlie

June 23, 2006, 11:51 PM	#7
Blackwater OPS Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,152	Nope, it has never happened to me. When in uniform I use a triple retention holster. __________________ "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Ben Franklin Spc. Jeremy M. Campbell Died 9/1/2005 and the best DS ever MSG Matthew Ritz Died 11.23.2005 matthewritz.com For those who have had to fight for it, Life holds a special meaning that the protected will never know. (\__/) (='.'=) Someone set us up the bunny! (")_(")

June 23, 2006, 04:45 PM	#3
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	Another Troop and I with 2 subjects. Afterwards we found the other Troop's gun and part of the holster had been ripped off his gun belt and was laying in the grass. Found mine was unsnapped which we assume the subject did. Another time had one grab for mine but he never got a hold of it. The 3rd time I was transferring custody of an arrestee to a city officer who was going to transport the subject in their van. The subject was handcuffed behind his back. The city officer put his cuffs on the subject and was removing mine when the subject grabbed onto the city officer's Model 10 and was trying to pull it out of the holster. As soon as the city officer yelled "he has my gun" I took him down, hard. The subject sued both me and the city officer and we went to fed court for 1983 action. Jury really wasn't interested in his side of the story when both I and the city officer testified that he had tried to remove the gun from the holster. His defense was he thought he was going to fall forward so he just grabbed on to what he could reach to keep from falling. Jury didn't buy that defense at all. Our holsters were Safariland Level I.

June 23, 2006, 10:48 PM	#4
OneInTheChamber Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Posts: 789	Wow. Scary stuff. So level I is just tension right? And then level II is tension + thumb break, and level III is tension + thumb break + having to twist the weapon a little or something right? Thanks guys! Keep those stories coming!

June 23, 2006, 11:25 PM	#6
chrisandclauida2 Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2005 Posts: 312	i was escorting an inmate in the county hospital on a Friday night once and had a snatch attempt. a quick backhand solved it but it was scary. the person who tried for my weapon was a prisoner of a police officer who was cuffed in front and was allowed to sit in the hall way. i always put my inmates in the back corner of the room facing a wall. this is especially important in a place where you have probably 10 prisoners and 50 other patients all in a hall way.

June 24, 2006, 02:35 PM	#8
OneInTheChamber Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Posts: 789	blackwater; exactly what does a triple retention holster have on it? Thanks.

June 24, 2006, 02:43 PM	#9
Jeepmark2005 Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 171	Rention level means how many weapon retention devices a holster has. Level one is just a snap across the back of the gun. Level two could be two snaps or an internal retention device that requires a specific movement to unlock the gun and so on __________________ Ed Brown Special Forces .45 - Glock 22 .40 - Bushmaster Modular AR15 5.56 - Benelli M1 Super90 - Ruger 10/22 - Ruger 22/45

June 25, 2006, 01:38 AM	#10
chrisandclauida2 Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2005 Posts: 312	most dont discuss exactly what steps are needed to draw from a security holster. suffice to say a triple retention is almost impossible to snatch from. you are more likely to have a failure of the stitching than get the holster out anyway but the exact steps that the officer performs. they are made so only the wearer can easily perform the needed steps.

June 25, 2006, 11:29 AM	#11
OneInTheChamber Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Posts: 789	I totally understand that. It's a good thing for me; as I want to join LE. How come not all officers use one then? To me that is a pretty easy fix to a huge weak spot.

June 25, 2006, 11:56 AM	#12
Blackwater OPS Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,152	The advantage of a triple rentention holster in that it is easier to retain, is not as important to some as being able to draw the weapon as quickly as possible. Personally I think with training the lvl III does not slow me down at all vs any other thumb release holster, and I know I am more likely to be killed with my own gun or my partners than any other. __________________ "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Ben Franklin Spc. Jeremy M. Campbell Died 9/1/2005 and the best DS ever MSG Matthew Ritz Died 11.23.2005 matthewritz.com For those who have had to fight for it, Life holds a special meaning that the protected will never know. (\__/) (='.'=) Someone set us up the bunny! (")_(")

June 25, 2006, 04:13 PM	#13
TexasCop Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2006 Posts: 396	USed to work in a much larger community with several ethnic clubs that would get WAY over the fire occupancy limit, and every time we had to go in and do anything in the club you would just feel people tugging at your gun and equipment as you were walking through the clubs. The first time it happened I had a plain level 1 thumbsnap holster, the next day I went out and bought the safariland level 3, still had to keep your hands on your stuff but the comfort feeling was a little bit highter. then fighting with a nutjob in front of a Circle K in the parking lot, he decided to go after it and I wasn't carrying a back up piece at the time, so we wrestled around for a bit until my backup showed and we got him into custody. Thankfully at that time I already had the level 3, I've carried nothing else for the last 14 years.

June 25, 2006, 05:56 PM	#14
shooter_john Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2002 Location: ALABAMA Posts: 1,472	When I was in the academy, we did weapon retention for about a week, and by about the third day, I had about a 70% sucess rate disarming my partner (Glock 22 in Safariland Level III) and we found him to be particularly susceptible to rear attacks. Thugs know what gear we use, and they practice with it just like we do, NEVER get the mindset that your gear is perfect. I actually had a lot more trouble getting the guns with mounted lights out of the Safariland II's than I did the level III's, because they seem to be stiffer and they cover more of the gun. The hard construction of the level II's make you draw at a somewhat specific angle or else your not gonna get the weapon out, and we found that it was somewhat difficult to get that angle if you were not the one wearing the holster. I personally prefer the light capability to the extra retention strap. __________________ TROTAC.com

June 25, 2006, 05:58 PM	#15
fastman Junior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Posts: 2	Level 3 holster Hello all, new here. From Blackwater OPS: "The advantage of a triple rentention holster in that it is easier to retain, is not as important to some as being able to draw the weapon as quickly as possible. Personally I think with training the lvl III does not slow me down at all vs any other thumb release holster, and I know I am more likely to be killed with my own gun or my partners than any other." This is my feeling also, just rolling around with a level I and or some II's and your firearm will fall out of the holster.

June 25, 2006, 06:50 PM	#16
ltdave Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2005 Posts: 226	i carried my King Cobra in a Don Hume Level II. thumb break and tension. it DID require a very specific angle... i was only in one situation where i could have had to fight for my pistol but it never came to that. i was working security at a basketball (thug ball) game and there was a near riot break out right afterwards. my partner had a guy grab for his gun but he was taken down with a quick jab to the jaw and a responding backup had his entire holster torn off his sam browne. he stepped on it for retention and arm barred the offender... no other time did i have to worry about it. albeit i was only in the LE job for about 2 years... david

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