|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
June 24, 2014, 06:09 PM | #76 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 8, 2005
Posts: 696
|
I recently took an online driver safety course so I would not receive
any points after some minor traffic infraction. One thing that stuck with me is "there is nothing on the highway worth dying for". I will add to that, "there is very little on the highway worth killing over. What might see important in the heat of the moment might seem as pointless after the fact. For years, I have been very very careful to avoid anything that could be interpreted as road range. If someone is driving erratically and acting "mental", I try to keep as much distance between our vehicles as possible. No eye contact, no yelling, no bird flipping. Get out of the area and call 911. |
June 24, 2014, 06:13 PM | #77 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,520
|
|
June 25, 2014, 12:21 AM | #78 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 21, 2014
Location: Michigan
Posts: 189
|
An excerpt from http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-suprem.../1106701.html#, last paragraph is interesting.
The statement of the governing principles of self-defense as set forth in People v. Doe, 1 Mich. 451, 456-457 (1850), is indicative of the common-law rules that were in place when the Legislature enacted Michigan's murder statutes just four years earlier. These principles remain apropos today and have not been modified since their implicit codification more than 150 years ago: First. That a man who, in the lawful pursuit of his business, is attacked by another under circumstances which denote an intention to take away his life, or do him some enormous bodily harm, may lawfully kill the assailant, provided he use all the means in his power, otherwise, to save his own life or prevent the intended harm; such as retreating as far as he can, or disabling his adversary without killing him, if it be in his power.[21] Secondly. When the attack upon him is so sudden, fierce and violent, that a retreat would not diminish, but increase his danger, he may instantly kill his adversary without retreating at all. Thirdly. When from the nature of the attack, there is reasonable ground to believe that there is a design to destroy his life, or commit any felony upon his person, the killing of the assailant will be excusable homicide, although it should afterwards appear that no felony was intended. [Emphasis supplied.] |
June 25, 2014, 04:14 AM | #79 |
Member
Join Date: May 7, 2013
Posts: 25
|
Someone getting out of their vehicle and directing harsh language in your general direction hardly constitutes an evident "design to destroy your life or commit felony upon your person."
|
June 25, 2014, 06:18 AM | #80 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,399
|
Pay special attention to a particular clause in that last paragraph that you cited:
Quote:
If you want to play games with the wording of the law, you probably want to be VERY careful that your interpretation of "reasonable ground" agrees with the jury's (composed of probably 50% non-gun owners and [anti-gun types]) definition. Good luck! Last edited by Evan Thomas; June 25, 2014 at 06:35 AM. Reason: no need to inject left-right politics into this. |
|
June 25, 2014, 06:47 AM | #81 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 27, 2014
Location: southeastern Vermont,USA
Posts: 325
|
@indierocker
what does who he is or is not have to do with getting the license plate# and calling the police and or campus security |
June 25, 2014, 10:44 AM | #82 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
Depends on where witnesses are sitting or standing, there are not many situations a person can imagine I have not been involved in. There was a shooting that was determined to be a good shooting.
The subject same up in a conceal carry class, I ask the instructor if he was there and he responded with no. I then ask him if he would like to talk to someone that was there. There had to be 40+ witnesses that did not wait around for the investigations and cameras. They all had some place to be. F. Guffey |
June 25, 2014, 11:43 AM | #83 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 16, 2002
Location: alaska
Posts: 3,498
|
Quote:
What if you had got out of the vehicle with hands out palms facing the RRguy, and simply said "Hey, we are sorry! We don't know what we did to upset you, but it was NOT intentional. We don't want any trouble." No, you instead proudly told how you were meeting aggressive behavior with your own aggression. And were quick to tell your friend (who obviously is not a gun carrier, nor probably knows the actual specifics of the laws regarding the use of deadly force in self defense) that you could kill if anyone got within 21 feet of you! I am reminded of one of MTVs early reality shows True Life: I'm a Gun Owner; which featured a young man that believed he could shoot anyone who 'got up in his face' and 'gave him crap'.
__________________
"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard |
|
June 25, 2014, 02:12 PM | #84 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Could a drawn firearm and a verbal warning be appropriate in some circumstances. I don't think you are likely to accidently hit someone and injure them with a verbal warning. Or should you always follow what some are posting, if you draw your firearm use it. Advice I am surprised to see on this forum. Some seem to be saying that it would be easer to justify shooting someone than firing a warning shot, To me that implies if you draw your firearm shoot, it might be easer to justify to the authorities. Again advice I am surprised to read on this forum.
Quote:
Last edited by manta49; June 25, 2014 at 02:26 PM. |
|
June 25, 2014, 02:37 PM | #85 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
But one example:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fla-mom-...warning-shots/ How many opinions you want? http://www.secondcalldefense.org/sel...-are-bad-ideas http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-warning-shot/ http://archive.lewrockwell.com/spl4/...nceptions.html http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_...t-caution.html
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley |
June 25, 2014, 02:50 PM | #86 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 14, 2007
Posts: 245
|
Manta49,
The threat of injury or death is "assault" in the United States. Add a knife, bat, gun, etc and it becomes "assault with a deadly weapon". These are felonies. The legal system determines if the above is justified or criminal in nature. The issue with firing a shot, aimed or warning, is an act of deadly force. Deadly force can ONLY be justified when in *imminent* danger of grievous bodily harm or death. If one has the time to fire a warning shot, then how can the threat of grievous bodily harm or death be imminent? Also, there exists the practical issue of proving the intent of your shot. To the police you will appear to be guilty of attempted murder (and being incompetent with a firearm). I am typing this on my cell phone in a passenger van with shocks of dubious quality; I apologize for the typos I may have missed |
June 25, 2014, 02:52 PM | #87 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,829
|
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012...ring-burglary/ http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/22/le....google.com%2F http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-marion-hammer http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...herine-connell http://gunsnfreedom.com/another-man-...-with-shotgun/ http://blackbutterfly7.wordpress.com...-warning-shot/ http://politicaloutcast.com/2013/06/...home-intruder/ I only stopped cutting-and-pasting because I got tired of it, but there are countless more examples. Like I said, it's been proven time and again that warning shots are a terrible idea: Every prominent instructor and self-defense expert advises against it and there are many, many examples of people going to jail for it. How much more evidence do you need?
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume." Last edited by Theohazard; June 25, 2014 at 03:25 PM. Reason: quoted wrong person |
||
June 25, 2014, 02:55 PM | #88 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
In the examples the problem that I can see was not the fact that they fired a warning shot, but that they were judged not to have being justified to have used their firearm. Warning shot or at a person. Some examples are also contradictory. So to say a warning shot is never a good idea is I think bad advice. As is if you draw your firearm use it. Example someone is walking towards you with a firearm , you draw and point your firearm he drops his. Do you shoot him anyway to justify you brandishing your firearm. Do you think if in some of your examples you posted, if they shot and killed or injured the people everything would have being fine. Was it justification to use a firearm that was the problem not the fact that they fired a warning shot.
Quote:
Last edited by manta49; June 25, 2014 at 03:01 PM. |
|
June 25, 2014, 03:11 PM | #89 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,829
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As for your Massad Ayoob quote, notice that he still says in that article that warning shots are a bad idea. Sure, sometimes they have worked from a tactical standpoint and sometimes they haven't resulted in an arrest. But just because you do something stupid and you don't face consequences, that doesn't mean it wasn't stupid to begin with.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume." |
|||
June 25, 2014, 03:16 PM | #90 | |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
Quote:
The whole point is that they're a bad idea. They're a bad idea because they get you in trouble. It's hard to show that they get you in trouble by linking to stories where the shooter DIDN'T get in trouble. That is but one example, I make no claim as to the guilt or innocence of the person in the story. You want more examples, Google is your friend. We've provided a near a dozen examples and expert opinions.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley |
|
June 25, 2014, 03:39 PM | #91 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by manta49; June 25, 2014 at 04:01 PM. |
|||
June 25, 2014, 03:41 PM | #92 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,829
|
Quote:
In my experience, new gun owners who ask about firing warning shots just want to scare people away without ever having to shoot anyone. Well, here's a news flash: Gun are deadly weapons. If you don't want to use a deadly weapon, then don't use one. "Never" is a strong word. Someone with a good imagination can always come up with some extremely unlikely exception. That said, I can't think of a single situation where I would ever contemplate firing a warning shot. If I feel justified in firing my weapon, that means I'm going to actually fire at the person attacking me. Period. Gun aren't non-lethal weapons. If you want a non-lethal weapon for times when deadly force isn't justified, then get some pepper spray or a Taser. Quote:
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume." |
||
June 25, 2014, 03:54 PM | #93 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,829
|
Quote:
OK, I'll try YET AGAIN to explain this; I thought I already explained this in posts #65, 67, and 89; and .22lr explained it in post #86. But obviously our explanations aren't working. But here goes again: Simply the act of firing a warning shot can make a justified shooting appear to be unjustified (or it can just give more evidence against you to prove that an unjustified shooting was unjustified). When examining a shooting, the authorities try to determine whether the shooter truly felt his life was in danger. Unless they have a video of the shooting, all they can use is more indirect evidence. And the fact that warning shots were fired can give evidence that the shooting wasn't justified (even if it was). After all, why would you shoot a warning shot if your life was in danger at that moment and you needed to stop your attacker? Add in the negligent, stray-bullet aspect of firing a warning shot, and it should be pretty clear why it's such a bad idea. Quote:
Manta49, if you're going to resort to ridiculous straw man arguments, then there's really no point in trying to talk to you anymore.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume." Last edited by Theohazard; June 25, 2014 at 04:13 PM. |
||
June 25, 2014, 05:31 PM | #94 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,520
|
Closed -- because this is just going in circles now.
pax Nothing as mundane as mere evidence can be allowed to threaten a vision so deeply satisfying. – Thomas Sowell |
|
|