When Something Goes Bump in The Night...

[RobertSB701]

I just recently installed a Stack-On Model # QAS-1304 gun safe under my bed. I have my Glock 21 loaded with Federal HST's, an extra mag of the same, a tactical flashlight, and a SOG Aegis knife. Ok, so here I am @ 3AM on night with the unfortunate situation of having to "greet" an uninvited guest in my boxers, where the hell to I put all this stuff??? Ok, I know I can probably get by with out the knife, but the other three are pretty important. What strategy besides buy a weapons mounted light do you guys have? My boxers won't hold a fully loaded mag of .45!!!

[DRice.72]

Who has the signature from Lazaurs Long? Post in here. I can't rember just how it goes, but its somethi ng like: Always keep your guns and clothes where you can find them in the dark. I don't have a gun to go to the door with, but I have clothes.

[CWPinSC]

unfortunate situation of having to "greet" an uninvited guest in my boxers, where the hell to I put all this stuff???

Put it right where it is, close by in your "safe" room. Do NOT attempt to clear a house - you won't win. It's extremely dangerous for even trained professionals. NO property in your house is worth your life - NOTHING. If you reasonably feel someone has entered your home, bunker up in a defensible room with your weapon, prepare to repel, and dial 911. If the invader comes for you, then he's fighting on your territory, with your cover, and you have the advantage.

Prior to the invasion - have a good alarm system and use it. Buy a loud dog. Install good dead bolts, window grills, or whatever else your location demands.

A perfect defense room is a bedroom at the end of a hall that can be kept dark with a strong light shining down the hall away from the door. A solid core door with a deadbolt and 3" hinge/lock screws helps, too.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Some folks suggest a fanny pack with gear that you can sling over your shoulder or put around your waist.

However, it's best to have the door locked and stay put - unless you have to save the kids or someone else.

You can then yell through the door: I'm naked and armed. Which one will make your day?

Actually, there are better things to say.

[Parapliers]

Fanny pack is good idea. Do you think you are going to need an extra magazine?
In OCS we had to have a uniform ready to jump into. They called it a fire suit. One night the barracks caught fire and after the alarm was sounded the whole platoon fell out in full uniform in a matter of seconds.

[markj]

Dang, I sleep in the buff, but a 12 ga is easy to carry I figure when they start laffing I got em.

[Stevie-Ray]

I wear briefs, which is good because I might shoot a laughing invader, even if he's already yielded to my weapon.

[Dallas Jack]

I keep two weapons in my bedroom. Both have lights mounted on them.

I have thought hard and long about what I am about to say. Might as well get it over with.

I have read time and time again that you must take your defense into your own hands. Do not rely on the police for protection yet when it comes to home defense I hear "run and hide, call 911" The way I see it no one knows my house better than me. I know all the obstacales, where all the doors and windows are. I know whats in each room and when things are out of place.

Having said that I have cleared my house on three different occasions. Twice when the alarm went off and I was at work. Once when I arrived home and the front door was open. On two of the occasions I got there before the police and they came in as I checking the rooms. I was armed and they just asked if I were the home owner and let me continue. Was it the smart thing to do? I don't know but I think it was the right thing to do.

Everyone has to make their own decision. I made mine.
Dallas Jack

[MLeake]

A lot of times, when people talk about the dangers of clearing houses (and it's dangerous, no argument), they like to cite examples from police and military studies.

However, in those studies, the bad guys have had time to set up defenses, and the police and military teams are going into a new setup.

I don't recall ever seeing a study where the police or military are defending a structure the layout of which is second nature to them, against an intruder who isn't familiar with the layout, in the dark.

So, while I will concede that it's probably safer to barricade in a "safe room," assuming the situation allows (IE no house guests, kids, elderly in other parts of the house whom the homeowner should try to defend - oh, wait, even for those who think clearing is a no-no, there are still cases where we have to clear.... hmm...) I have to take a lot of the arguments based on "studies show the officers/troops get killed more often than the bad guy" with a serious grain of salt.

Put it this way: if you can navigate my living room, with a coffee table, a couple sofas, a storage chest, and an entertainment center in the dark better than I can, you are probably such a skillful ninja that you will also come into my bedroom and kill me before I know you're in the house.

Not saying that we should all just willy-nilly go out on house clearing sprees, just saying that we should bear in mind that the home advantage is actually ours, not the intruder's.

Having dogs is a help.

Cheers,

M

[Dallas Jack]

Put it this way: if you can navigate my living room, with a coffee table, a couple sofas, a storage chest, and an entertainment center in the dark better than I can, you are probably such a skillful ninja that you will also come into my bedroom and kill me before I know you're in the house.

Not saying that we should all just willy-nilly go out on house clearing sprees, just saying that we should bear in mind that the home advantage is actually ours, not the intruder's.

This is what I was trying to say but may have failed in the interpretation. Also I think that the police are at the same disadvantage as the intruder.

Besides if you get by me you have to face my wife.
Dallas Jack

[kay_gee]

120lb doberman and a loaded .45 doberman will get the BG before i do...

[OldMarksman]

Having said that I have cleared my house on three different occasions. Twice when the alarm went off and I was at work. Once when I arrived home and the front door was open. On two of the occasions I got there before the police and they came in as I checking the rooms.

Ever occur to you that that the main reason for your success was that there was no one there to ambush you?

[Dallas Jack]

Ever occur to you that that the main reason for your success was that there was no one there to ambush you?

Obviously. But that wasn't my point. If you are going to take on your own defense why not be serious about it. Besides, had it happened at 3 am who would be ambushing who?
Dallas Jack

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Dallas Jack

....had it happened at 3 am who would be ambushing who?

The odds are overwhelming that the BG will be ambushing you. You are looking for him. No matter how quiet you think you can be, the odds are overwhelming that he will know you are coming and that he will know from where. He doesn't have to know your house at all. He's not looking for you. He doesn't need to be moving around. He just has to wait for you to come to him and be ready when you find him. And if there's more than one intruder, which you probably won't know, you can really have an interesting time of it.

See http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...5&postcount=93 and http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...6&postcount=87 and http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...&postcount=140.

And here is an example of what can happen if you go investigating: http://cbs11tv.com/local/watauga.sta....2.851147.html. The BG was outnumbered. The BG brought a knife to a gunfight. The BG was on unfamiliar territory. But the BG also had a significant tactical advantage and won the fight.

[Parapliers]

Do NOT attempt to clear a house - you won't win.

I agree with Dallas Jack. Why so defeatist? If CWP meant that even if you win you lose because of possible legal repercussions, maybe so.

[Shotgunnr]

Yall just need to move into a trailer and get a bedroom at one end. If anyone breaks in just start at one end, and work your way across. He cant get behind you, and pressed wood and cheap paneling doesn't offer much cover.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Parapliers

...Why so defeatist?....

[1] Because in the real world the ensconced adversary (i. e., the BG) has a significant tactical advantage because he only needs to wait for you to come to him and to be ready when you show up.

[2] My training has told me how to clear my house. But it has also told me that it's a very high risk procedure, and doing so when not necessary (unless, for example, if I need to go and see to the safety of unaccounted for innocents) jeopardizes my primary mission. And my primary mission is to keep my family safe. That is best accomplished by keeping them all together with me in a defensible place of safety.

[MLeake]

I don't think anybody is arguing that it isn't safer to take up a defensive position.

Some seem to be arguing that on principle, they just have to go and clear.

I'm looking at it more from the perspective that there may be some circumstances that require movement - IE kids, or elderly parents, etc elsewhere in the house.

This may not be a remote possibility for some people; however, for those that may encounter the situation, it's probably a good idea to think about just how they'd move to check on the other family members.

And while thinking about that, bear in mind that unless the BG is somebody who's been in the house before, the terrain advantage should be the homeowner's, so long as the homeowner doesn't go poking his nose around corners or through doorways. (IE go directly to the kids' room, while letting the dog snoop the house)

Dogs are much harder to surprise or sneak up on than we humans are. A healthy dog's ears and nose will give it much more info at night than we get, especially in its home where it knows all the normal sounds and smells. My dog picks up on mice under the floorboards and behind cabinetry; I really don't think a burglar is going to escape her notice, even if he holds his position.

Dogs are good; I'd say every household should have at least one, but I have known too many people who really shouldn't be inflicted on a good dog.

In summary, stay put if you can; if you have to move about, ideally you have both a dog that can do the scout work, and a significant other who has his/her own firearm as well as a phone to provide cover and 911 connectivity.

[Greg_TX]

In my house, it would be best for me to stay put. All of the bedrooms are upstairs, and the only way up can be covered easily because our master bedroom door is at the top of the stairs. I probably wouldn't risk going downstairs because the staircase is exposed on the side facing the front door and foyer. Good chance the BG might be in that area, and I if I went down I'd be exposed like a duck in a shooting gallery. Plus, the floor squeaks at the top of the stairs - I wouldn't be able to get started downstairs without making noise. My plan would be to hole up in the master bedroom and cover the stairs; if they stay downstairs then it's an insurance call - if they start coming up the stairs, it's an ambulance call.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by MLeake

...I'm looking at it more from the perspective that there may be some circumstances that require movement - IE kids, or elderly parents, etc elsewhere in the house....

I agree. There may be times when it will need to be done. But one shouldn't be doing it unless it really needs to be done, and pretty much the only reason I can see for doing it (at least right now, as I sit here) would be unaccounted for innocents abroad in the house.

And in case one may someday need to do it, one should get some proper training. And it seems that pretty much everyone we heard from who has had proper training has concluded that clearing his house is something he'd do only if he absolutely has to.

Originally Posted by MLeake

...Some seem to be arguing that on principle, they just have to go and clear....

And I think that principle alone is a lousy reason to go house clearing.

Originally Posted by MLeake

...And while thinking about that, bear in mind that unless the BG is somebody who's been in the house before, the terrain advantage should be the homeowner's,...

But since the BG doesn't have to go moving around, unless there's a secret passage or two, I don't think knowing the terrain helps the homeowner that much. Once the BG knows the homeowner is coming, and he will most likely know, he'll know where the homeowner will be coming from (rooms have only so many entrances and they're pretty obvious). It's not going to take the BG too much knowledge of the terrain to pick a good place to wait.

[Dallas Jack]

The odds are overwhelming that the BG will be ambushing you. You are looking for him.

How did you decide those odds? When that alarm does off (yes I have a monitored alarm) I will know he is in the house. He has no idea if anyone is even home. I will also know where he came in and he still doesn't know if or where I am. I have no time limit, I don't have to run thru the house looking for him. And I think I can be quieter in nothing but my shorts (I sleep in my underwear) than him (i'm sure he is wearing somekind of clothes and shoes) bumping into my furniture.

People have the bad habit of asigning abnormal powers to bad guy's. They are after all just people, maybe people without a conscience or morals, but still just people. I am not Superman, neither are they. Sounds corny but I don't know how else to get my meaning across.

Scenarios used in training are just that. Scenarios. They are devised to put you in the worst position possible. You can not assess your odds of sucess in real life by what you have seen or read from training class. Each situation is new and unique. In the end you do what you think is best. So will I.

[Rangefinder]

I was really gonna go off on this whole thread and the serious 'tactical' debate going on. But then I noticed some of the locations. So instead I'll just add my 'tactical approach' to bumps in the night.

"bump"

--Deer must have decided the flower bed tastes better than the weeds out back. Dogs not raising hell, must not have worked around the side yet. Since I'm up, I might as well 'clear the house', see if that nice buck is in the group, and get a drink of water...

---Stumble to sink, fill glass, chug, slop down chin, wipe on arm.
---Stumble over to porch light, turn on, look out. Yup, there's the buck.
---Turn off porch light, stumble back to bed while avoiding bumping into walls because A) thumps inside makes dog bark B) Dog barking makes wife cranky at 3am C) Most of my walls have antique sharp objects all over them and bumping into them is almost as bad as barking dog and cranky wife put together.


And people wonder why I prefer living in the country...

[Dallas Jack]

Just a thought. Why would someone break into my house just to hunker down and wait for me to come toodleing thru. If they were just there to burgle they would be looking for things to take. On the other hand if they were there to rob they would more than likely be in a hurry to find me. Element of surprise thing and all. This last would catch me in my bedroom, in my shorts, holding either a shotgun or a .45 pointed at the door (we are empty nesters so both are close at hand). All the while the alarm is just screaming.

Maybe I am paranoid. I prefer to think I am prepared.
Dallas Jack

[Dallas Jack]

Rangefinder, I've got a friend that lives in the country. When the chickens start raiseing cain he jumps out of bed, into his boots. Grabs his 12 guage and runs out to the chicken house. Picture a 70 year old standing in the chicken yard wearing a pair of boots and underwear holding a shotgun. Now the dogs are raising hell.
Dallas Jack

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Dallas Jack

How did you decide those odds?...

Suit yourself. It's not my problem. I'll stick with my training.

As noted, it seems that folks who have had this sort of training agree that clearing a house solo is a bad idea unless you really need to for some very important reason. And the guys that do this sort of thing for a living do it as a team. Maybe they know something.

Massad Ayoob tells a story about the National Tactical Invitational, an annual competition in which some 130 of the top shooters and firearm trainers participate by invitation only. One of the events is a force-on-force exercise using simunitions in which the competitor must clear a house against a single "BG." According to Mas, during the first six of these annual events, only one competitor, in one year "survived" the exercise and he was head of NASA security firearms training at the time. And one, and only one, made it through the seventh year. The tactical advantage of the ensconced adversary is just too great. And remember, these competitors were highly skilled, highly trained fighters.

So do as you wish. It's your life and your family at stake, not mine.

Originally Posted by Dallas Jack

...If they were just there to burgle they would be looking for things to take....

Unitl they figured you were looking for them, in which case they'd either beat a hasty retreat or get ready to ambush you.

And don't assume your intruder is untrained. If he's done this sort of thing before, he might very well have had a lot of experience moving around strange houses at night, thus acquiring "on-the-job" training. Or he might have gotten some useful hints from more experienced burglars while in jail.

And you really can't assume that he's all that unfamiliar with your house. With most houses it's possible to deduce a lot about their interior layouts from their exteriors. And he might have been watching the house for a while and learned a lot about its layout, and the household routine that way, e. g., watching the pattern of lights going on and off or watching shadows in the windows as people leave or arrive.

You really don't know anything about your adversary. You will have no idea what you're walking into. Sure, he might be so looped on drugs that he can hardly see straight. But then again, he could be a very experienced and competent burglar, and there may be more than one of him.

But if you really need to clear your house, knock yourself out.

Have a good evening.