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April 14, 2024, 03:22 PM | #26 | |
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All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
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April 14, 2024, 03:59 PM | #27 |
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True.
Thanks for the clarification. |
April 15, 2024, 10:25 AM | #28 | |||
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But until SCOTUS agrees we have to abide. Of course its an infringement on personal firearm sales. But when a person doesn't hold an FFL and begins repetitively buying and selling firearms he's not collecting, not personal.........he's a business. Quote:
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BUT.......if I have to get an FFL, keep records, perform background checks on buyers and comply with federal law in order to engage in the business of dealing in firearms, so should anyone else who engages in the business of dealing in firearms. If you don't want to get an FFL, keep records, perform background checks on buyers and comply with federal law to engage in the business of dealing in firearms........then don't dance around pretending its just a "personal sale". ATF is clear this doesn't prevent personal sales by nonlicensees. This regulation isn't about Uncle Bob selling a gun at a gun show twice a year, its about the Bryan Malinowski's.....guys who rent multiple tables and sell dozens of new guns at gun shows or have dozens of online ads selling guns. They ARE engaged in the business and need to get their FFL. If you don't want to do background checks, don't become a gun dealer.
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April 15, 2024, 10:43 AM | #29 | |
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The change in definition and new regs take a definition resting on "with a principle objective of a livelihood" to something much broader that could include a mere offer to sell is not a clarification, and surely isn't required to prosecute what was already illegal.
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April 15, 2024, 12:40 PM | #30 |
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I understand your viewpoint now.
I agree that "dealers" should get an FFL. However, I really don't think the feds care so much about unlicensed dealers as they do about making most sellers a "dealer." |
April 15, 2024, 03:17 PM | #31 | |
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And this is what bothers me most, about how they are defining things. For many, many years I bought, sold and swapped guns as a hobby. Face to face, no background checks, no FFL and entirely legal where I lived, and when I did it. All the guns were for my personal use, some of them I still have decades later, others went away over time, a few I didn't keep more than weeks, or even days, if I found a better deal on something I wanted. None of it was done with the intent of generating income, though I did try hard to sell or trade for some degree of profit. Getting what I wanted was the point, losing money on the deal wasn't. Based on what is being said and reported (admittedly always flawed and generally biased) someone doing what I used to could be classified as an "unlicensed dealer", and possibly prosecuted. Just because the govt doesn't take a new rule or even a new law to its possible extremes today doesn't mean they never will.
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All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
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April 15, 2024, 06:06 PM | #32 | |
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A cautionary note for others: Last year we were able to do this in Minnesota. This year we cannot. |
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April 15, 2024, 06:24 PM | #33 | |
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https://gunowners.mn/learn/minnesota-laws/ubcs/ |
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April 16, 2024, 12:52 AM | #34 | |
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A difference unknown to most people who get told something is an "assault weapon" and if it is a rifle, call it an assault rifle, but it's not an actual assault rifle. The term "assault rifle" came into existence near the end of WWII, and was coined by Adolf Hitler. After the war it was adopted and defined by the firearms community using the main features of the German Sturmgewehr (Assault Rifle) those being box magazine fed, SELECT FIRE and using an "intermediate power cartridge". The key difference between and assault rifle and an assault weapon is SELECT FIRE. Assault weapons are semi automatics, not capable of full auto fire. This is the definition written into law. Assault rifles are select fire, and since they are capable of full auto fire, under US Federal law, they are machine guns. There is no term in Federal law for assault rifles. They are machine guns, and that feature takes precedence over all others. Its only one word of difference in the name, but a huge difference in the definitions, and one that the anti gun people deliberately made up to take advantage of most people lack of knowledge in this rather narrow and arcane area of firearms terminology, when they created the term "assault weapon".
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April 16, 2024, 01:28 AM | #35 |
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Here's something to ponder--when you do a firearms transfer without an ffl--and you originally bought it with one--the trail of serial record goes cold with you as last known owner. If you acquire the serial firearm without an ffl and then move it on--and you do this on a repeated basis, that's a tricky situation as well. The big "what if" is what happens if the firearm ends up being used or transferred illegally.
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April 16, 2024, 08:20 AM | #36 | ||
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Except for the cars I have now, every car I've ever purchased has been passed on to someone else. I couldn't tell you whether any of them were used in a deadly drunk driving crash. Household goods and clothing I've purchased but no longer have were largely been given to churches. While the focus of my hobby is shooting, I don't deny that I sometimes have found the items themselves interesting, or that sometimes my interest in a specific item having been dated then passes. I've had a few that didn't make it beyond a first range session to know that I didn't like them well enough to keep them. I've surely had months in which I bought or sold more than once. Would that still be occasional under the new law, and should anyone trust the federal government to measure occasional sales fairly where they've already indicated that less than one can be enough to violate law? Quote:
That's not a standard and it isn't plausibly offered for clarity of application. It's an assertion of expanded federal authority over people who have no objective of a livelihood pertaining to firearms with a presumption in favor of the government.
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April 16, 2024, 10:39 AM | #37 | |
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"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! |
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April 16, 2024, 10:49 AM | #38 |
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I’m still confused. There have been some super minor tweaks, infringements none the less, that have been communicated. Then they go tell the press that this drives 20000 more dealers and stops some gun show loop hole and puts an end to internet sales. Nothing written substantially changes any of this, unless they just start randomly arresting people not violating the law….or harass online dealers out of dealing with individuals. That has been done. This is why we need an FFL to ship anything!
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April 16, 2024, 11:24 AM | #39 | |
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The average gun owner does not buy and sell enough to be in violation. If it does anything, this new reg only applies to a few guys who are constantly buying and selling to make money. This is a political move to make Biden's Liberal base think he's doing something. He's not. |
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April 16, 2024, 11:29 AM | #40 | |
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This is why I will never sell another gun EXCEPT through my local gun shop placing it on Gun Broker for me. This works well and I am protected. |
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April 16, 2024, 01:30 PM | #41 | ||
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If you spend the summer after highschool cutting lawns to make the last $1500 you needed (combined with your prior year's $2000 in savings) to buy a $3500 rifle, then follow your first year of college with an unpaid internship and sell the rifle to pay rent, you have spent more money on the purchase of a firearm for the purpose of resale than your reported taxable gross income in the last year. If you lose your job and sell your guns at the rate greater than your reported taxable gross income so you can pay your mortgage, you fall within the presumption. Maybe rebutting that presumption will distract you from your other misfortunes. It would be your burden to rebut these presumptions in civil proceedings, but the bureau also contends that these presumptions "...may be useful to courts in criminal cases..." p 462-463.
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April 16, 2024, 01:44 PM | #42 | |
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The BATF doesn't want difficult. They want clear, open and shut cases where they can get a guilty plea for probation. The guilty party loses his right to own firearms and has his confiscated. BATF is happy with that easy outcome. |
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April 16, 2024, 02:08 PM | #43 | ||
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If your point is that the law and regs may not survive court challenge, I'd share your hope, but that doesn't mean the regs only apply to guys constantly buying and selling. Quote:
The ATF are within an agency of the federal executive. If the executive wants bump stocks to be treated as NFA items or wants to put a chill through the market of legitimate individual non-licensed gun owners, the ATF will oblige. That's what an agent does.
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April 16, 2024, 02:44 PM | #44 |
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Should you actually win one of these cases in court, you will likely be broke for the rest of your life.
Don't think federal agencies won't take you to court if they think you'll win. They would just as soon you spend every last dime defending yourself. Their lawyers are already on staff. You have to hire and pay yours. |
April 16, 2024, 03:36 PM | #45 | |
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They only want the slam dunk cases where they can get a quick guilty plea in exchange for probation and loss of rights to own guns. I've seen three of those and almost became one myself.........luck and the grace of God saved me. |
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April 16, 2024, 06:12 PM | #46 | |
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Abramski, Sackett v. EPA and West Virginia v. EPA are all cases in which an agency explored the limits of its authority. In Abramski, the issue was one that had been decided against the government in other circuits. In Sackett and West VA., the agency involved pressed forward with a power that wasn't constitutionally valid. Counting on a federal agency to be lazy and risk averse isn't a flawless strategy.
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April 16, 2024, 06:36 PM | #47 |
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Did either of those cases involve "lose your job and sell your guns at the rate greater than your reported taxable gross income so you can pay your mortgage," or........
"spend the summer after high school cutting lawns to make the last $1500 you needed (combined with your prior year's $2000 in savings) to buy a $3500 rifle, then follow your first year of college with an unpaid internship and sell the rifle to pay rent..........."? |
April 16, 2024, 07:25 PM | #48 | |
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No, I can provide you no cases that match those or any other fact patterns under a regulation that is not yet effective. If those fact patterns fit the law and reg, on what basis do you believe the government would find prosecuting the described behavior difficult?
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April 16, 2024, 11:13 PM | #49 | |||
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I'd say your legal responsibility for what happens to or with that item ends when you sell it.
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April 17, 2024, 12:38 AM | #50 | |
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"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! Last edited by stagpanther; April 17, 2024 at 05:35 AM. |
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