New to reloading

BChip · June 20, 2016, 02:18 PM

Hello,
This is my first time handloading. I am going to be loading some 45-70 Gov't for a Henry H010 lever action. I will be using a lee challenger press and a set of lee dies and a lee factory crimp. I also have a cutter, a chamfer tool, and a priming tool as well. I used a lee 457-340-F for casting bullets and got some nice bullets from that. I will buy some starline brass and will obviously need some large rifle primers and a lubricant. I have questions about the powder when loading. What powder would you recommend? Will the powder scoop that comes with the lee 45-70 dies kit be sufficient. Thanks! Feel free to add any other recommendations on equipment that may you think may be helpful/necessary.

condor bravo · June 20, 2016, 02:44 PM

I assume the -340 indicates bullet weight. 4198 powder can be used for most any bullet weight, cast or jacketed. The Lyman manual shows 40.0 to 44.0 gr 4198 for a 330 gr cast bullet. The powder dipper that came with the loading set will not suffice. You will need to weigh the powder charges. One or two comments could be in order for the .45-70, one being to flare the case necks for bullet seating. Another is that should you obtain Hornady factory ammunition, those cases are shorter than others and must be taken into consideration when loading. Do not use the chamfering tool to apply a flare, that will not suffice. Use a regular flaring die like the Lyman M die that can be obtained from Midway for about $20. However a flaring die should come with the die set.

alexcue · June 20, 2016, 03:28 PM

Just from my recent .45-70 reloading experience... get the M die. I did use the Lee Expander powder through die... but I didn't like the shaved lead I'd get every now and then. As CB said above... it isn't that much, and it makes loading cast bullets easier. YMMV

BChip · June 20, 2016, 04:50 PM

Thanks for the advice everyone. I went ahead and purchased a scale and powder measure scoops set. Probably safer to weigh than to rely on a scoops alone. The Lee die set does have an expander so I will see how I like it. I will probably go ahead with Lyman m die as you both have advised somewhere down the road as I see it beneficial to mix and match to see what works best. thanks again for the replies.

ericuda · June 20, 2016, 05:53 PM

No need for a m die in my opinion. I load mine with the lee expanding die and it works fine. What powder do you have, the 45-70 is very versatile and can be loaded hot, mild and everything in between. I have used unique, trailboss, imr 3031, h4198, imr 4198 and aa5744. Watch out for the manuals, the lever action loads are a shoulder pounder. The trapdoor on the other hand is light. Let us know your powder.

condor bravo · June 20, 2016, 06:08 PM

BChip,
Since you are apparently using cast bullets, you may also be interested in reduced loads using Trail Boss powder. To get an idea, open current thread ".308 bolt action subsonic" and read post #14. The same explanation applies equally to the .45-70, simply fill the case to where the base of the bullet will be after seating. This is so-called max load but is still very mild. Of course less powder can be used but minimum load is 70% of max load, obtained by using a scale of course. But for the max load just by itself, a scale is not needed. And you don't have to be exact, a little above or below bullet seating depth will suffice for near max. This powder is the most convenient powder available for reduced loads.

BChip · June 21, 2016, 03:38 PM

I went with hodgdon benchmark powder because it was what was available to me. (gander mountain didn't have a huge selection) I found load data for a 350 grain bullet.

flashhole · June 21, 2016, 05:46 PM

The Lee Powder Through Expander Die works great. It is sized to accept the Lee Funnel so you can flare and charge at the same time.

Weighing is better than scoops but you can use the scoops with the scale to get close then trickle charge to the exact amount of powder you want.

I cast the same bullet. I use both Varget and H-4895 powder, mid-range loads. Benchmark runs the extreme high and low limits with the Lee Dipper Cups. 56 grains at the bottom end (4.0 cc) and 60 grains at the top end (4.3 cc). You want to be somewhere in between these limits. I push my cast bullets around 1900 fps in my Guide Gun, no leading and great accuracy.

briandg · June 22, 2016, 04:44 AM

unless you are pushing your loads into maximum or dangerous territory, or beyond the safe velocities for your lead bullets, using a powder scoop is more than adequate. Scoops were used for centuries now, long before scales or measures, and unless people just used the wrong one, there wouldn't have been failures.

of course you must have a scale, and confirm the desired charge weight, but once you do that and your scoop measures a consistent, safe charge, a trickler or measure is unnecessary. Using a scoop isn't even going to affect your accuracy in this case.

I feel like you have a very reasonable set up, that you will be successful with your loading, that the powder used isn't going to be too important as long as it is a recommended load, and you don't press the velocities or pressure levels beyond what lead can handle.

Do not forget that your lead, unless it was purchased with a specific hardness certification, is likely to be soft, because scrap lead uses any alloys available. if it is harvested from indoor range or other bullet traps, it's mostly going to be from soft lead used in jacketed bullets, and rimfire bullets. You can't count on your lead to be fully useable to the full recommended velocities unless you buy professionally alloyed metal.

mikld · June 22, 2016, 11:21 AM

Welcome to the wonderful, oft confusing and frustrating word of reloading! My suggestions are to read the instructions that came with your Lee dies, there's a lot of info there regarding powders and how to set up the dies (a lot of fellers are being helpful, but for now just stick with the very basics, as in only what's in your instructions and manuals). Reloading manuals are a must, not just for load data but most have a good "How To" section which will come in handy. If you are going to shoot lead bullets get a Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook (the third edition is my favorite but prolly not available now so get a 4th). Start with the starting loads in your manual, go slow, double check everything, and have fun...

BChip · June 22, 2016, 02:41 PM

I loaded my first five cartridges, and I used 56 grains of benchmark powder for my 340 grain bullet. I am a little bit nervous because I couldn't find data for my bullet that I'm shooting but that seems to be in the ballpark for a 350 grain bullet that I found the data for. The 350 grain bullet had a start load of 56 grains and a max load of 60. That also is the ballpark that flashhole recommend I stay in. Let me know if you think that will work.

condor bravo · June 22, 2016, 03:35 PM

First of all, what rifle are you shooting with the .45-70s?

Secondly, the Lyman manual shows very little data with benchmark powder. The load it does list is for a 350 gr jacketed bullet with powder weights from 51.0 to 57.0, and these charges are for the strong Ruger Numbers 1 and 3 only. Accordingly your loads of 56 gr would be on the high side even for the Rugers. So, depending on your rifle, it might be advisable to cut back some. If you have like a model 1895 Marlin, you should probably reduce the load to begin with. What is the source of your loading data and does it indicate the rifle for those loads?

Late addition:
I see you are using a Henry lever action that should be equal to the Marlin model.

BChip · June 22, 2016, 04:27 PM

I am using a henry h010 lever action rifle which is a relatively new rifle. I found the data on this website:

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

I selected 45-70 gov't (lever action) and 350 grain bullet and chose my powder.

condor bravo · June 22, 2016, 05:02 PM

Based on the pressure reading of 26900 CUP from your data source, that pressure is equivalent to near maximum load pressures developed with other powders and a 350 gr jacketed bullet for use with modern lever action rifles. So all of that is to say that your load appears safe but definitely on or near the max load side. I would say it is good to go.

Unusual perhaps that the Lyman manual doesn't show more benchmark powder data.

briandg · June 22, 2016, 05:32 PM

You said in the first post that you would be using home cast lead bullets

flashhole · June 22, 2016, 05:36 PM

The Hodgdon Annual Manual has the Benchmark loads but it is not on their Data Center.

The 56 - 60 grain load is listed in the Modern Lever Action category.

BChip · June 22, 2016, 06:33 PM

Thanks everyone,
I feel better about trying this much powder. I will probably reduce the amount by a little and see how different amounts perform anyway since that appears to be near max pressure. The SAAMI recommended max load for 45-70 is 28000 psi which the Henry should handle just fine. The source that lists 26900 CUP is probably close to that. Of course there is no exact correlation between those two units and that is a 350 grain bullet and not a 340 grain bullet. I guess I will just have to see what shoots better. I will probably also get that Hodgdon annual manual to have more published data on hand. I appreciate the advice.

Thanks again

gwpercle · June 22, 2016, 07:32 PM

Your Lee dies will come with a powder scoop and chart showing what powders can be used with what bullets with the scoop. At least the Lee dies did when I bought my last 9 mm Luger set about 3 years ago
Follow the instructions and powders recommended and you will be OK.
Gary

Lost Sheep · June 22, 2016, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwpercle

Your Lee dies will come with a powder scoop and chart showing what powders can be used with what bullets with the scoop. At least the Lee dies did when I bought my last 9 mm Luger set about 3 years ago
Follow the instructions and powders recommended and you will be OK.
Gary

Correct, and the Lee dies also come with a shell holder.

But, if you really want any degree of versatility, you need a scale. For safety's sake and because most manuals give powder charges in weight rather than volume, I consider a scale to be absolutely necessary for quality control.

The one Lee scoop will do for typical 45-70 power levels for a few (very few of) the most common powders for that cartridge. But there are a lot of other powders that will do for your shooting which would require a larger or smaller scoop/dipper than that one. A full set of dippers will help greatly.

Lost Sheep

mikld · June 22, 2016, 08:31 PM

FWIW; I always recommend to new reloaders to find a load in their manual, with specific components, before buying components. Many fewer headaches that way.

Chainsaw. · June 23, 2016, 04:35 PM

Loading a lighter bullet using a recipe that calls for a heavier bullet of ok. The other way around is a No No.

June 20, 2016, 02:44 PM	#2
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	I assume the -340 indicates bullet weight. 4198 powder can be used for most any bullet weight, cast or jacketed. The Lyman manual shows 40.0 to 44.0 gr 4198 for a 330 gr cast bullet. The powder dipper that came with the loading set will not suffice. You will need to weigh the powder charges. One or two comments could be in order for the .45-70, one being to flare the case necks for bullet seating. Another is that should you obtain Hornady factory ammunition, those cases are shorter than others and must be taken into consideration when loading. Do not use the chamfering tool to apply a flare, that will not suffice. Use a regular flaring die like the Lyman M die that can be obtained from Midway for about $20. However a flaring die should come with the die set. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with?? Last edited by condor bravo; June 20, 2016 at 03:12 PM.

June 20, 2016, 06:08 PM	#6
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	BChip, Since you are apparently using cast bullets, you may also be interested in reduced loads using Trail Boss powder. To get an idea, open current thread ".308 bolt action subsonic" and read post #14. The same explanation applies equally to the .45-70, simply fill the case to where the base of the bullet will be after seating. This is so-called max load but is still very mild. Of course less powder can be used but minimum load is 70% of max load, obtained by using a scale of course. But for the max load just by itself, a scale is not needed. And you don't have to be exact, a little above or below bullet seating depth will suffice for near max. This powder is the most convenient powder available for reduced loads. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with?? Last edited by condor bravo; June 20, 2016 at 07:02 PM.

June 21, 2016, 05:46 PM	#8
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	The Lee Powder Through Expander Die works great. It is sized to accept the Lee Funnel so you can flare and charge at the same time. Weighing is better than scoops but you can use the scoops with the scale to get close then trickle charge to the exact amount of powder you want. I cast the same bullet. I use both Varget and H-4895 powder, mid-range loads. Benchmark runs the extreme high and low limits with the Lee Dipper Cups. 56 grains at the bottom end (4.0 cc) and 60 grains at the top end (4.3 cc). You want to be somewhere in between these limits. I push my cast bullets around 1900 fps in my Guide Gun, no leading and great accuracy. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

June 22, 2016, 04:44 AM	#9
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	unless you are pushing your loads into maximum or dangerous territory, or beyond the safe velocities for your lead bullets, using a powder scoop is more than adequate. Scoops were used for centuries now, long before scales or measures, and unless people just used the wrong one, there wouldn't have been failures. of course you must have a scale, and confirm the desired charge weight, but once you do that and your scoop measures a consistent, safe charge, a trickler or measure is unnecessary. Using a scoop isn't even going to affect your accuracy in this case. I feel like you have a very reasonable set up, that you will be successful with your loading, that the powder used isn't going to be too important as long as it is a recommended load, and you don't press the velocities or pressure levels beyond what lead can handle. Do not forget that your lead, unless it was purchased with a specific hardness certification, is likely to be soft, because scrap lead uses any alloys available. if it is harvested from indoor range or other bullet traps, it's mostly going to be from soft lead used in jacketed bullets, and rimfire bullets. You can't count on your lead to be fully useable to the full recommended velocities unless you buy professionally alloyed metal. __________________ None.

June 22, 2016, 11:21 AM	#10
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Welcome to the wonderful, oft confusing and frustrating word of reloading! My suggestions are to read the instructions that came with your Lee dies, there's a lot of info there regarding powders and how to set up the dies (a lot of fellers are being helpful, but for now just stick with the very basics, as in only what's in your instructions and manuals). Reloading manuals are a must, not just for load data but most have a good "How To" section which will come in handy. If you are going to shoot lead bullets get a Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook (the third edition is my favorite but prolly not available now so get a 4th). Start with the starting loads in your manual, go slow, double check everything, and have fun... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

June 20, 2016, 02:18 PM	#1
BChip Junior Member Join Date: June 2, 2016 Posts: 6	New to reloading Hello, This is my first time handloading. I am going to be loading some 45-70 Gov't for a Henry H010 lever action. I will be using a lee challenger press and a set of lee dies and a lee factory crimp. I also have a cutter, a chamfer tool, and a priming tool as well. I used a lee 457-340-F for casting bullets and got some nice bullets from that. I will buy some starline brass and will obviously need some large rifle primers and a lubricant. I have questions about the powder when loading. What powder would you recommend? Will the powder scoop that comes with the lee 45-70 dies kit be sufficient. Thanks! Feel free to add any other recommendations on equipment that may you think may be helpful/necessary.

June 20, 2016, 03:28 PM	#3
alexcue Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2015 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 134	Just from my recent .45-70 reloading experience... get the M die. I did use the Lee Expander powder through die... but I didn't like the shaved lead I'd get every now and then. As CB said above... it isn't that much, and it makes loading cast bullets easier. YMMV

June 20, 2016, 04:50 PM	#4
BChip Junior Member Join Date: June 2, 2016 Posts: 6	Thanks for the advice everyone. I went ahead and purchased a scale and powder measure scoops set. Probably safer to weigh than to rely on a scoops alone. The Lee die set does have an expander so I will see how I like it. I will probably go ahead with Lyman m die as you both have advised somewhere down the road as I see it beneficial to mix and match to see what works best. thanks again for the replies.

June 20, 2016, 05:53 PM	#5
ericuda Member Join Date: May 19, 2012 Location: nwkansas Posts: 44	No need for a m die in my opinion. I load mine with the lee expanding die and it works fine. What powder do you have, the 45-70 is very versatile and can be loaded hot, mild and everything in between. I have used unique, trailboss, imr 3031, h4198, imr 4198 and aa5744. Watch out for the manuals, the lever action loads are a shoulder pounder. The trapdoor on the other hand is light. Let us know your powder.

June 21, 2016, 03:38 PM	#7
BChip Junior Member Join Date: June 2, 2016 Posts: 6	I went with hodgdon benchmark powder because it was what was available to me. (gander mountain didn't have a huge selection) I found load data for a 350 grain bullet.

June 22, 2016, 02:41 PM	#11
BChip Junior Member Join Date: June 2, 2016 Posts: 6	I loaded my first five cartridges, and I used 56 grains of benchmark powder for my 340 grain bullet. I am a little bit nervous because I couldn't find data for my bullet that I'm shooting but that seems to be in the ballpark for a 350 grain bullet that I found the data for. The 350 grain bullet had a start load of 56 grains and a max load of 60. That also is the ballpark that flashhole recommend I stay in. Let me know if you think that will work.

June 22, 2016, 03:35 PM	#12
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	First of all, what rifle are you shooting with the .45-70s? Secondly, the Lyman manual shows very little data with benchmark powder. The load it does list is for a 350 gr jacketed bullet with powder weights from 51.0 to 57.0, and these charges are for the strong Ruger Numbers 1 and 3 only. Accordingly your loads of 56 gr would be on the high side even for the Rugers. So, depending on your rifle, it might be advisable to cut back some. If you have like a model 1895 Marlin, you should probably reduce the load to begin with. What is the source of your loading data and does it indicate the rifle for those loads? Late addition: I see you are using a Henry lever action that should be equal to the Marlin model. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with?? Last edited by condor bravo; June 22, 2016 at 03:50 PM.

June 22, 2016, 04:27 PM	#13
BChip Junior Member Join Date: June 2, 2016 Posts: 6	I am using a henry h010 lever action rifle which is a relatively new rifle. I found the data on this website: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle I selected 45-70 gov't (lever action) and 350 grain bullet and chose my powder.

June 22, 2016, 05:02 PM	#14
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Based on the pressure reading of 26900 CUP from your data source, that pressure is equivalent to near maximum load pressures developed with other powders and a 350 gr jacketed bullet for use with modern lever action rifles. So all of that is to say that your load appears safe but definitely on or near the max load side. I would say it is good to go. Unusual perhaps that the Lyman manual doesn't show more benchmark powder data. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

June 22, 2016, 05:32 PM	#15
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	You said in the first post that you would be using home cast lead bullets __________________ None.

June 22, 2016, 05:36 PM	#16
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	The Hodgdon Annual Manual has the Benchmark loads but it is not on their Data Center. The 56 - 60 grain load is listed in the Modern Lever Action category. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

June 22, 2016, 06:33 PM	#17
BChip Junior Member Join Date: June 2, 2016 Posts: 6	Thanks everyone, I feel better about trying this much powder. I will probably reduce the amount by a little and see how different amounts perform anyway since that appears to be near max pressure. The SAAMI recommended max load for 45-70 is 28000 psi which the Henry should handle just fine. The source that lists 26900 CUP is probably close to that. Of course there is no exact correlation between those two units and that is a 350 grain bullet and not a 340 grain bullet. I guess I will just have to see what shoots better. I will probably also get that Hodgdon annual manual to have more published data on hand. I appreciate the advice. Thanks again

June 22, 2016, 07:32 PM	#18
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	Your Lee dies will come with a powder scoop and chart showing what powders can be used with what bullets with the scoop. At least the Lee dies did when I bought my last 9 mm Luger set about 3 years ago Follow the instructions and powders recommended and you will be OK. Gary

June 22, 2016, 08:31 PM	#20
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	FWIW; I always recommend to new reloaders to find a load in their manual, with specific components, before buying components. Many fewer headaches that way. __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

June 23, 2016, 04:35 PM	#21
Chainsaw. Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2015 Location: Issaquah WA. Its a dry rain. Posts: 1,774	Loading a lighter bullet using a recipe that calls for a heavier bullet of ok. The other way around is a No No.