Long range shooting ethical?

[Gbro]

What was done on that 2000 acre ranch with feral goats is very similar to what is commonly done on a prairie dog town here in the USA. The carcass was even used in this case so we are told.
I have no trouble with this story. I myself am very satisfied with hunting shots not to exceed 200 yards for myself
(not because I am unable to, its just a personal limitation).
Phil, did you make the conversion to yards for us? Am i correct to believe you use the metric system as a rule?
How skiddish are those feral goats? As in how close can one get without causing them to be very nervous?

[kraigwy]

I'm a target shooter. I've been shooting high power including 1000 yard matches for over 30 years. I know what conditions, wind, temp, etc. will do to a bullet at 600 or 1000 yards.

We're talking hunting so lets look at a hunting round, for example, an 180 grn 300 WM @ 3000 fps MV.

An one mile an hour wind will move your bullet about 8 inches. No problem, a 1000 yard target has a twenty inch X-10 ring. Look at it this way, a 3 mph wind will move you 24 inches, and 5 mph, 40 inches. How many people can tell the differance between 3 & 5 mph at 1000 yards? The differance between 950 yards and 1000 yards in bullet drop is about 30 inches. How many people are that accurate in range estimation at 1000 yards? How about the temp.? What does it do to your round?

If I'm off a tad on my estimations at a match, I'm gonna drop a point or two, If I'm off a tad while hunting I'm gonna have a gut shot critter that could run for miles before it crawls off to suffer a painful death.

No sir, If I what to shoot long range (and I do), find some targets and range. If I hunt, I'll sight my rifle in for 200 yards and hunt. I've been hunting for over 50 years, killing my first deer at 8 years old, I can count on one hand how many critters I've shot over 100 yards. None over 200 yards.

The only exception I shot a running dog at 237 yards, that wasnt hunting, It was a LE Sniper call out to get the suspected rabid dog to prevent a child from getting an un-necessary series of rabid shots. That was a necessary, not hunting.

I'm also not a fan of shooting running targets even though I've had extensive training and practice.

You wont empress me talking about long range shots on game, even if you make the kill. It tells me you are lucky, not good.

Most impressive hunt I've seen was hunting caribou near King Salmon AK. I set on a hill and watched a guy crawl through the tundra for four hours to get a 30 yards shot with a bow. Now that was hunting.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I thought I'd throw this in, just for visualization of what we're talking about.

This is the trajectory from 1000 to 1900 yards of a 180gr Swift Scirocco fired from a 30-378 at 3451fps muzzle velocity.

Wind drift is based on a 2mph, 90dg crosswind.

Originally Posted by kraigwy

Most impressive hunt I've seen was hunting caribou near King Salmon AK. I set on a hill and watched a guy crawl through the tundra for four hours to get a 30 yards shot with a bow. Now that was hunting.

Amen brother.

[grubbylabs]

I could do it.

[Water-Man]

1840 yds

[Baphomet]

.
If I have to ask myself if it's an ethical shot, it's not.

[grubbylabs]

Eyes closed and with a pistol

No problem

[phil mcwilliam]

Gbro, Australia is metric but once youre in rural areas people still talk in acres & yards. My mate has owned this cattle property for 18 years & I probably have averaged a weekend hunting there every 6 weeks over this time. Needless to say, I know this property & surrounding properties extremely well. The canyon that these guys were looking up is accessible by a 4x4 track that loops around the back & my usual method of hunting goats is to ride my old Honda XR250 dirtbike up to the top of this canyon & then stalk the goats.
I consider a "long range" shot for myself anything over 300 yards, and have taken plenty at that distance with both my Sako 22-250 & 308, but I guess most of the feral goats I have shot have been at distances of 25 to 150 yards. Because of their numbers feral goats in this area are easy to shoot, but also have to be culled. It is common to be culling a herd of a dozen goats in this canyon area, only to have several more small herds of upto a dozen cross through this area within the hour.
I only posted this story because it is very much different to the type of hunting/ shooting that Ive ever been involved with. I know a guy that has won medals shooting Queens Birthday shoots ,where they shoot at 600 yards & 1,000yard targets with Omark 303 rifles fitted with aperture sights. Ive also known professional fox shooters that can shoot the eye out of a fox at 200 yards with a 17rem to save a pelt from damage. As a matter of fact Wayne, the manager of this property is also a part time professional-kangaroo shooter & has paid off a second hand Toyota Landcruiser with kangaroos at $20 a roo.
But we were all amazed at what this auto electrician & his mate were capable of with their very specialised equipment.

[Art Eatman]

It seems to me that if one only looks at the 1,840 yards aspect and ignores the totality of the whole affair, one's comments are at best irrelevant opinion.

For example, I enjoy prairie dog shooting. But in no way do I regard that as "hunting". It's just shooting of a somewhat pestiferous creature. I have no qualms about trying for good-eye guesstimate shots at 300 to 400 yards. (So far, so good, however.)

Feral critters? Outright pests? Sure, I'll always try to use hunting skills as may be necessary, and always try for a clean kill-shot. However, those are animals which will not leave me with the same sort of bad feeling as if I had messed up with a true game animal.

Seems to me, however, if you were to castigate a shooter who'd just made a clean kill at those distances as referenced in the opening post, you'd likely get laughed at. He might wonder if you'd go tell Michael Schumacher how to drive an F1 car.

[javven]

Well - is it any different from my last hunt? I stumbled upon the last big game I shot. I think the range -might- have been 15 yards? At least bullwinkle didn't trample my guts out... But how sporting was stupidity meeting dumb luck?

My thoughts? If you have the skills to pay the bills at the range you take your shots at? Good on you. Who's to say that a few grand or even tens of thousands spent on optics, range finders, etc is any more or less worthwhile than putting it in a custom gun? We all know how much dough that can suck up.

If the caliber being used, combined with your ability to place the shot results in a humane kill? Good on you. I'm not sure anything less than 50BMG has the energy required for 1600M + shots but I'd have to check ballistics.

If you shoot from the ground or legal stand (not the back of your SUV), unassisted (no remote control guns), at unpressured game in its natural environment (no cages)? Good on you. I don't see a problem here.

[Art Eatman]

My more cynical moments have me mumbling, "Them that can, do; them that can't are critics."

Face it: There are some self-styled hunters who couldn't stalk Helen Keller. Some pistoleros for whom IDPA means, "Incompetence Doesn't Protect Anything."

One shot, meat in the pot: How do you improve on that?

[crghss]

But we were all amazed at what this auto electrician & his mate were capable of with their very specialised equipment.

Me too.

[ZeroJunk]

There is no doubt it is an amazing shot.
Shooting at an animal from long range just to play with your toys bothers me.

[themusgrat]

If you're harvesting the meat, is there any difference between having fun killing an animal from 10 yards or 1840? The word "hunting" has always implied a sense of sport or fun, but there was a time when it mainly meant "to go out, kill an animal, and put food on your family's table." Only in modern times have people started to take "hunting" as "go out and have a fun while maybe killing an animal."

If you could have told Davy Crockett that in 2010 one would be able to 3 shot 3 infestatious goats at a range of 1840 yards, I'm betting he would have said something like "That's amazing." He was one of the first true specialized long range shooters after all. You all going to bash Davy Crockett for trying to make long shots?

[hickstick_10]

1840 yds

your REAL good when you can shoot the rope that's tying it to the tree

[Dr. Strangelove]

Ethics is a personal decision.

For me, a shot is ethical if it is within the range that I can assure a reasonable probability of a hit and clean kill. (I have missed, once )

I don't hold others to what I deem ethical for myself. As long as it is legal, go for it.

[waterfowler]

If you know you can make the shot, then it is ethical. If you shoot long range and you know that your chances are not good getting it, then that is un ethical.

[Gbro]

Phil,

But we were all amazed at what this auto electrician & his mate were capable of with their very specialised equipment.

I was asking about the metric vs Imperial(??yards) measurements you gave because I was thinking maybe a mistake in conversion may have been made. TBS, I was also thinking you may have been attempting to give some of us a "ONE BACK" to make up for the Quigly Down Under movie .
But anyway this is still hearsay, as you were told about this second hand, and when this happens again "LETS SEE SOME PICTURES"!

Good Day,

Gbro

[shortwave]

Some parts of the country long range shooting is mandatory.Some parts your lucky if you can shoot 100yds.
Its ethical for me as long as I stay within my limitations. As a hunter, my limitations and ethical shooting distance's are my responsibilities and are monitored by target practice. I understand and (begrudgingly) accept the fact that my eyes aren`t what they used to be. Therefore, my ethical shooting distance may vary from yours.
These days bino's and a range finder are very good friend's of mine.

[Olibobwa]

I'd like to get about a 40x40 paper target and try it with iron sights ....

[LafeHubert]

3 for 3 at 1840 yards? Possible, but I'd have to see it live or on video to believe it. Also, I don't force my ethical standards on anyone.

Good Luck

[reloader28]

Whats wrong with some of you people???
Just cause you cant do it, you think its unethical? You need to get a life and quit complaining about this long range crap.
They did 3 times in a row, he obviously knows what he doing. How can you call that lucky and unethical?
Get off your high horse.
Those goats are nothing more than a nusiance, same as our prairie dogs or the sewer rats in the cities. I dont see anyone complaining about long, unethical shots on prairie dogs.
We dont even consider 300 yds long range. Not till your past at least 500. We can smack our 12"x12" 400 yarder without hardly trying. I wouldnt expect all of you to, but this is what I do. This is our lifestyle.

We need to start a thread on the unethical tree stands and blinds.
I think you people that sit in stands or blinds need to get off your butts and start doing some actual hunting for a change.
You call this (long range) luck shooting and not hunting?
I call sitting in a stand, the same thing.
That is not hunting. Just waiting for something to walk by. You are not hunters.
Completely camo'd with scent blockers.
Baits.
Range finders for your 80 yd shot.
A scoped rifle for crying out loud.

Speaking of scopes. How about the guys with scoped turkey guns. Now theres someone thats got problems. If you have to have a scope on a 30 - 40 yrd shotgun, you better give up hunting.





Now, before you throw a fit, please realize something. This is my opinion, same as that is yours. Everyone hunts their own way and its nobody elses business to tell them they should be doing something or not. If they were gut shooting them, or doing something illegal, thats different.
I hunt my way ,you hunt your way ,and they hunt their way.
I cant make the goat shots like those guys, but I dont think its unethical. I dont expect guys from Florida brush country to hike the mountain ridges and shoot across canyons like me.
I dont have near enough patience to sit in a stand or blind and dont even own one as it would do no good here anyway. Even tho I dispise that style of hunting, I know its the only way to do it in certain places.

Sorry to rant and rave, just trying to make a point.

[golfballshootr]

Speaking of scopes. How about the guys with scoped turkey guns. Now theres someone thats got problems. If you have to have a scope on a 30 - 40 yrd shotgun, you better give up hunting.

I understand you are expressing opinion here and take zero offense to that, with the exception to the above quote.

Not to fire you up, but, my daughter, 12 yrs old, will not give up hunting! She has to have a scope on her turkey gun due to the fact that her eye sight is so bad she has to have the scope to be able to shoot. She wears prescription glasses and with iron sights or bead only, she cannot see the front of the barrel clearly along with the target.

It is my opinion, that some of these gizmos were invented to help keep some folks like my daughter in the outdoors who would not be able to otherwise.

I sincerely hope you take no offense to this, as none is intended, just trying to make a valid point.

[shortwave]

Reloader,
With due respect and much understanding, how can you defend a certain kind of hunting and condemn another unless you`ve hunted in area's that may require a different style of hunting(treestand) than long range. Also, I happen to like my range finder/scope when pistol hunting out to 80-100 yds.

Not calling you out on this one cause this threads full of alot of opinions (on whats ethical or not) by some people thats probably never been out of their immediate area hunting.

We are all hunters and instead of condemning certain style's of hunting, especially if we've never hunted area's that may require different tactic's than we're accustomed to. Maybe we all ought to try and engage our brains a bit better before engaging the keyboard. The bad-mouthing should be left for the anti-hunting/gun society.

Most opinion oriented threads usually end up with alot of advice/opinions from people that have no experience in the topic at hand. Great example of that is the opinions on firearms. You'll have opinions of certain guns from people that admittingly have never owned or shot the gun in question.

We need to remember that TFL is open for all public to read. Anti gunners/hunters alike. Maybe more consideration/thought is in order.

[kdog70]

So just to get this straight a guys comes out with a custom 300 with quality optics took them time to test his hand loads out to that distance before the shot knows what it takes and knows his abilities takes the shot makes then shoots two more goats at Shorter distance around 1100 yards. I don't see a problem, he clearly knows his abilities and his bullets abilities to fly straight and buck the wind. He was prob using Berger 210's or Sierra 220, 240 SMK because of the better BC. And the range could have been exagerated a bit just basing that on I run a similar set up and the bullet losses velocity at a certain distance and its ability to open up and be a quality hunting bullet.