Pattern question

Creek Henry · September 20, 2014, 08:04 PM

I have already posted my story about sending my Stevens 612 back to Savage and receiving a 512 O/U back. It is a nice little 20 ga but during last years dove season I kept missing with it. This was after I got a laser bore sighter and adjusted the comb so it hit to point of aim. It seemed to hit skeet okay.

I finally got to pattern it today and may have discovered the culprit. I set up cardboard sheet and shot IC and IM at them at 30 yards. It shot to point of aim and even put a pretty tight hole into the center at 10 yards. That was with the IM barrel. The IC choke left a very sparse pattern at 30 and an ugly, thin one at 10.

So, could it be that my perceived misses were from too thin of a pattern? I didn't have the mod choke with me to test, but I have already swapped it out for the IC one. Can a choke tube be soooo wonky as to make a shotgun ineffective? I would guess so but hearing some of yous guys stories might be helpful.

**44 AMP** · September 21, 2014, 11:37 AM

IC is improved cylinder, meaning only a tiny bit of choke compared to a cylinder bore (no choke at all) It will give you the most open patterns at all ranges (only full cylinder gives more open patterns).

IM ? Is that what we used to call "Modified" choke? Or is it Improved Modified? (between Improved cylinder and Modified)? Either way, a bit more tightly patterning than IM but not necessarily a lot tighter.

Also be aware that different brands of ammo and even different loads can pattern differently. Try several different types of ammo and see what each one does.

The traditional measure of choke was the % of pellets inside a 30" circle at 40yards. The actual inside bore diameter of the choke wasn't a fixed number, it was whatever produced the right result. IIRC 70% was the standard for a full choke gun.

I spent several years as a youth, shooting pre-WWII full choke 12ga. guns. I got pretty good. When I got a 70s manufactured modified choke 12ga, I couldn't seem to drop anything! The more open pattern, combined with my "training" on guns that today would be classed as xtra full or super full choke resulted in a lot of misses. I did, eventually find the sweet spot for the open choked gun, but it took a while.

Dreaming100Straight · September 21, 2014, 01:34 PM

An IM is an improved modified. The LM or Light Modified has a constriction tighter than improved cylinder but less constricted than a M (Modified). See this explanation by Briley.

To me, it makes sense that the OP gets a pretty tight patter with the IM at 10 yards. What he describes as an ugly thin pattern at 10 with the IC makes little sense to me. It should be wider than what he gets with the IM.

Virginian · September 21, 2014, 02:30 PM

A funky choke tube can render a barrel useless. Not frequent, but it does happen. Go here are read everything you always wanted to know.
www.briley.com

Creek Henry · September 21, 2014, 02:34 PM

Savage/stevens guns come with 5 chokes, in order of restriction, cylinder, IC, mod, improved mod (IM), and full.

The original 612 model had a screwed up IC choke so it got shipped back withthe gun and I now have 8 chokes as a new set came with the new gun they sent me back. This is another reason I distrust their chokes, the threads of the original IC made it sit wonky... Not confidence inspiring.

I will do some more patterning if I can. There doesn't seem to be a place to do so at a range in Dallas and doing it in the field is less accurate.

But it is good to know someone else had trouble with a much more open choke also. TY

Dreaming100Straight · September 21, 2014, 05:35 PM

Forgetting about whether or not you IC is wonky (I love this scientific stuff, but this is a new one on me), if you are hitting well with the IM and doing poorly with an IC, I note that Briley generally recommends an IC for doves.

Couzin · September 21, 2014, 08:58 PM

Elm Fork, Alpine, and some other ranges in the DFW have patterning boards. If you want to drive out toward Terrell - I would be happy to take you to my club range and help you with our pattern board. Maybe you would like to test your new knowledge then with a couple rounds of skeet or trap?

Creek Henry · September 21, 2014, 09:11 PM

Terrell huh? I go hunting near there so... Maybe.

Elf Fork didn't have a pattern board last year, so the clerk said. Let me see how this season pans out but thank you for the offer.

September 20, 2014, 08:04 PM	#1
Creek Henry Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Location: Dallas Posts: 514	Pattern question I have already posted my story about sending my Stevens 612 back to Savage and receiving a 512 O/U back. It is a nice little 20 ga but during last years dove season I kept missing with it. This was after I got a laser bore sighter and adjusted the comb so it hit to point of aim. It seemed to hit skeet okay. I finally got to pattern it today and may have discovered the culprit. I set up cardboard sheet and shot IC and IM at them at 30 yards. It shot to point of aim and even put a pretty tight hole into the center at 10 yards. That was with the IM barrel. The IC choke left a very sparse pattern at 30 and an ugly, thin one at 10. So, could it be that my perceived misses were from too thin of a pattern? I didn't have the mod choke with me to test, but I have already swapped it out for the IC one. Can a choke tube be soooo wonky as to make a shotgun ineffective? I would guess so but hearing some of yous guys stories might be helpful.

September 21, 2014, 11:37 AM	#2
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	IC is improved cylinder, meaning only a tiny bit of choke compared to a cylinder bore (no choke at all) It will give you the most open patterns at all ranges (only full cylinder gives more open patterns). IM ? Is that what we used to call "Modified" choke? Or is it Improved Modified? (between Improved cylinder and Modified)? Either way, a bit more tightly patterning than IM but not necessarily a lot tighter. Also be aware that different brands of ammo and even different loads can pattern differently. Try several different types of ammo and see what each one does. The traditional measure of choke was the % of pellets inside a 30" circle at 40yards. The actual inside bore diameter of the choke wasn't a fixed number, it was whatever produced the right result. IIRC 70% was the standard for a full choke gun. I spent several years as a youth, shooting pre-WWII full choke 12ga. guns. I got pretty good. When I got a 70s manufactured modified choke 12ga, I couldn't seem to drop anything! The more open pattern, combined with my "training" on guns that today would be classed as xtra full or super full choke resulted in a lot of misses. I did, eventually find the sweet spot for the open choked gun, but it took a while. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

September 21, 2014, 02:30 PM	#4
Virginian Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Williamsburg, Va. Posts: 1,528	A funky choke tube can render a barrel useless. Not frequent, but it does happen. Go here are read everything you always wanted to know. www.briley.com __________________ What could have happened... did.

September 21, 2014, 01:34 PM	#3
Dreaming100Straight Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2013 Posts: 1,235	An IM is an improved modified. The LM or Light Modified has a constriction tighter than improved cylinder but less constricted than a M (Modified). See this explanation by Briley. To me, it makes sense that the OP gets a pretty tight patter with the IM at 10 yards. What he describes as an ugly thin pattern at 10 with the IC makes little sense to me. It should be wider than what he gets with the IM.

September 21, 2014, 02:34 PM	#5
Creek Henry Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Location: Dallas Posts: 514	Savage/stevens guns come with 5 chokes, in order of restriction, cylinder, IC, mod, improved mod (IM), and full. The original 612 model had a screwed up IC choke so it got shipped back withthe gun and I now have 8 chokes as a new set came with the new gun they sent me back. This is another reason I distrust their chokes, the threads of the original IC made it sit wonky... Not confidence inspiring. I will do some more patterning if I can. There doesn't seem to be a place to do so at a range in Dallas and doing it in the field is less accurate. But it is good to know someone else had trouble with a much more open choke also. TY

September 21, 2014, 05:35 PM	#6
Dreaming100Straight Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2013 Posts: 1,235	Forgetting about whether or not you IC is wonky (I love this scientific stuff, but this is a new one on me), if you are hitting well with the IM and doing poorly with an IC, I note that Briley generally recommends an IC for doves.

September 21, 2014, 08:58 PM	#7
Couzin Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2006 Location: Terrell, Texas Posts: 240	Elm Fork, Alpine, and some other ranges in the DFW have patterning boards. If you want to drive out toward Terrell - I would be happy to take you to my club range and help you with our pattern board. Maybe you would like to test your new knowledge then with a couple rounds of skeet or trap?

September 21, 2014, 09:11 PM	#8
Creek Henry Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Location: Dallas Posts: 514	Terrell huh? I go hunting near there so... Maybe. Elf Fork didn't have a pattern board last year, so the clerk said. Let me see how this season pans out but thank you for the offer.