357 Rifle Powder?

fshfindr · April 23, 2015, 01:53 PM

I have only used handgun loads of Unique in my 357's for my Ruger 77-357 rifle. Should I be using rifle powder like h110 or some other powder? Any and all suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks.

I'm editing after 44 AMP's reply, maybe someone can suggest a powder or tell me which they use in their 357 Carbine. Still Thanks.

**44 AMP** · April 23, 2015, 02:14 PM

"Rifle powder" is a somewhat variable term.

The slowest pistol powders (2400, H110, etc) are the fastest rifle powders.

There are a few rifle cases that are smaller in case capacity than the .357 mag case. .22 Hornet is one. Put 2400 in a Hornet its a rifle powder. Put it in a .357, its a pistol powder.

2400, H110, 296, and a couple of others will give you top end velocities higher than Unique. Out of a carbine or rifle length barrel their performance improves more, proportionately than a fast powder, like Bullseye, or a medium rate like Unique.

Slow powders take more grains to reach their peak, so you won't get as many rounds per pound of powder than you will with a faster burning powder.

No free lunch. Sorry.
moving to Handloading forum

**Unclenick** · April 23, 2015, 02:52 PM

I think a lot of folks have the mistaken idea that a longer barrel requires a slower powder, and vice versa. But while there are some odd exceptions, particularly in overbore rifle cartridges, it is generally true that the same powder will turn out to produce the highest velocities from a cartridge in all commonly available barrel lengths for it.

What actually determines the powder burn rate are expansion and sectional density of the bullet. Expansion is how much the volume the powder is burning in grows as the bullet moves forward. This volume determines how much gas is needed to sustain pressure. The sectional density determines how quickly that pressure accelerates the bullet. Together they determine how quickly the space the powder is burning in grows, and that determines how fast the powder has to burn to maintain pressure. Notice that the length of the barrel was absent from those considerations.

Clark · April 23, 2015, 03:24 PM

There are load books [Speer 12 comes to mind] that have 357 mag handgun recipes separate from 357 magnum rifle recipes, but they are the same.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I have experimented with 38 special in a strong rifle:

The SAAMI registered max average pressure for 357 mag is driven by fingertip extraction of 5 or 6 cases with a steel chamber wall 0.050" thick. Tempered cartridge brass cannot match the elastic deformation of even annealed steel, so the .05" thick chamber stretches and comes back to where it was. The brass can take a set [some plastic deformation] and stays bigger. The cases are hard to extract above 35 or 40 kpsi.
But in the Ruger 77 with chamber walls 0.750" thick and extracting a single round with a bolt handle prying against the extractor cam, the brass can be extracted to >80 kpsi. Too bad the primer is not up to that. Switching to a CCI 450 magnum small rifle primer, the primer will still pierce in a work up before the brass flows. Send the bolt to Gre-Tan to get the firing pin and hole bushed, and the primer will still pierce first. ~~ 85 kpsi.

A disappointing aspect of 158 gr Bullseye at 35kpsi vs 80 kpsi is that there is not much increase in performance from a deer hunting perspective.

I have come to the conclusion that reaming out to 357 MAX does not help much.
The full solution is to ream to 357 MAX, and throat out to where the bullet is just hanging on with the mouth of the case.
Take pointy bullets with boat tails and maybe I can lob one in on a deer at 400 yards with fast killing power. The 200 gr Nosler Accubond comes to mind.

-------------------------
But life is so much easier if you let handgun cartridge cabines be handgun cartridge carbines. Use 357 mag book loads, shoot holes in a 100 yard target and say, "Gee whiz, great groups and it does not kick!"

gwpercle · April 23, 2015, 03:47 PM

In a rifle 2400 is going to be hard to beat. It's an older powder but still one of the best for 357, 41 and 44 magnum loads for hunting.
Gary

TimSr · April 23, 2015, 04:00 PM

What is it you are looking to improve on? 110 or 296 will give you higher velocity if thats what you want. I've gotten better accuracy out of them than Unique with jacketed bullets in pistol loads. 2400 and 4227 are other popular choices, but I've not used them. Alliant has a fairly new MP-300 I think it s that looks like their version of 110/296. All of these will give you better velocity in upper level magnum loads than Unique if that is what you seek.

My manuals have rifle sections for 357 but the only difference in the load data is the velocities.

fshfindr · April 23, 2015, 06:44 PM

Sorry, I should have included my goal. It's pretty simple, I want to be accurate for a 100 yd. match. So I'm looking for a powder that is accurate. I have been told that there is excessive drop and from what I have seen with just one experience at 100 yds, my 158g LRN did drop maybe 4-6 inches at 100 yds. I had to change my rear sight since it would not adjust down far enough. If the weather ever cooperates, I'll try again. Thanks.

SHR970 · April 23, 2015, 09:40 PM

What kind of bullets are / will you be using? swaged, cast, plated, or jacketd? It can make a difference. You have to keep velocities down with swaged, cast you need to avoid certain powders that will scorch the base, plated can be driven harder (depends on brand and type), and jacketed you can drive as hard as you want. This can and will make a difference in the powder choices that are suited to your application.

**44 AMP** · April 24, 2015, 01:04 AM

Quote:

maybe someone can suggest a powder or tell me which they use in their 357 Carbine.

Sorry, forgot to give you a suggestion.

I use 2400 in a Marlin 1894 carbine with 125gr, and have hit 2200fps, and while it is overdriving that bullet, it is very impressive. Think small hand grenade.

For your match? I have no idea what would be most accurate in your rifle, but I can tell you that maximum loads often don't group as well as something a bit less than all out max.

Every gun and ammo combination is a unique mix of things, and while most act very similar, the "stars can line up" and you can get performance significantly better or worse than the usual. The only way to see if some combination is accurate in your gun is to shoot it in your gun.

Snyper · April 24, 2015, 04:13 AM

Quote:

I want to be accurate for a 100 yd. match. So I'm looking for a powder that is accurate.

I have been told that there is excessive drop and from what I have seen with just one experience at 100 yds, my 158g LRN did drop maybe 4-6 inches at 100 yds.

If you're shooting a "100 yd match", there will be no drop at 100 yds, since that will be the range at which you set your zero.

It's far easier to adjust your sights than to adjust the loads

Find one that is the most accurate and don't overthink the powder choice

You may well find it's a load you already use

Salmoneye · April 24, 2015, 07:48 AM

Quote:

I have been told that there is excessive drop and from what I have seen with just one experience at 100 yds, my 158g LRN did drop maybe 4-6 inches at 100 yds. I had to change my rear sight since it would not adjust down far enough.

You do not move the rear sight 'down' to raise point of impact...

Move the rear sight in the direction you want to move the bullets on the target...

TimSr · April 24, 2015, 08:11 AM

Your powder choice should match your bullet, and your bullet will be the most critical component for accurracy. Does this match limit your bullet choices?

fshfindr · April 24, 2015, 09:26 AM

Salmoneye, Ooops. I did have to replace the rear sight. It is a Skinner sight that needed a longer threaded area. I had turned it up to the point where it ran out of thread and fell out. The bullet is a Lee TL358-158-2R LRN. The BC is .131. Snyper so there certainly is bullet drop and yes it is corrected with the sight. I estimate that it dropped about 4-5 inches. Also, it is advertised as 158 but it drops out at 150-151g.

buck460XVR · April 24, 2015, 09:49 AM

Quote:

There are load books [Speer 12 comes to mind] that have 357 mag handgun recipes separate from 357 magnum rifle recipes, but they are the same.

Many of them tho, eliminate the faster powders(such as Unique) because of the higher risk of squibs in the longer barrels. I've used Unique in my .357 levers for years with no problems. One of my mentors years ago told me to make sure if you use revolver data for a long-gun in .357, you want to make sure that the handgun load will produce over 850 fps in the handgun to make sure it clears the barrel in a rifle.

My .357 carbines shoot the low recoil Unique loads just as accurately as the hunting loads using H110/W296.

zxcvbob · April 24, 2015, 10:05 AM

Herco is a great powder in .357 Magnum with 158 grain cast bullets; rifle or revolver. I *think* the load is 8.0 grains, but not sure; I haven't loaded any .357's in a while. You need to look up real load data if you choose to try it.

AA#7 is good too; I use it more with jacketed bullets. Neither of these are absolutely-the-highest-FPS powders but they're up there, and accurate, and economical to use.

Reloader270 · April 24, 2015, 11:51 AM

We use a powder S265 which is +- the same as IMR4227. I load 15.0grain, but I use Fed 205 primers (SR). I also use a little decron filler. I shoot it in my Marlin .357Magnum and I get a velocity of 1600fps on 158grain JSP bullets. I use this combination for the reason that without the decron and the SR primer I experienced a lot a unburned powder in the barrel after shooting. After using the decron and SR primer, the unburned powder is almost eliminated. I had also tried CCI400 and CCI450 SR primers, but the Marlin had problems with a few of them not being struck hard enough to ignite. The Federal 205 SR Primers works every time. The Marlin also has micro grooving and that is probably the reason for lower pressure and therefore unburned flakes in the barrel after firing.

mehavey · April 24, 2015, 12:03 PM

Either....
VN-110, or
W296/H110

SHR970 · April 24, 2015, 06:31 PM

DO NOT use Alliant 410, Blue Dot, or Hodgdon Lil Gun for this application. They all burn real hot and will likely damage the base of the bullets resulting in poorer accuracy.

The question at this time is what powder(s) do you have on hand or can readily get?

Med slow to slow powders are in order.

fshfindr · April 24, 2015, 06:34 PM

You are the greatest. I have reread this twice and will probably reread again tomro. I don't claim to be the brightest shooter in the world, but I can put the target right in my sight picture. I got about as much info from you that I can absorb. I will go with 110, or 296 or 2400 in that order depending on availability. Thank You.

mehavey · April 24, 2015, 06:39 PM

Make sure you don't confuse ...

- V(ihtavuori)N-110 with
- H-110.

SHR970 · April 24, 2015, 06:44 PM

H110 and W296 are the same thing!

And if you are going with that speed range of powders, AA#9 is another candidate.

**44 AMP** · April 24, 2015, 09:31 PM

Quote:

H110 and W296 are the same thing!

Please don't confuse the poor lad any further!!!

They come in cans with different labels, they are listed separately in the load data, I have data where the amount is different for each. Short of a verified letter from the both "makers", I'm not buying it.

They may be "the same thing" today, but I remember a time when H110 wasn't "the same thing" as H110! There have been at least 3 different identified burn rates of H110 within living memory, and I understand that it was changed again, after those were "cleaned up". That is one of the reasons I never used H110 much.

Salmoneye · April 25, 2015, 07:19 AM

Quote:

They may be "the same thing" today, but I remember a time when H110 wasn't "the same thing" as H110! There have been at least 3 different identified burn rates of H110 within living memory,

And I won't believe that without a certified letter...

BTW

The load data on the Hodgdon site lists the exact same charges of H110 and W296 when searching particular caliber/bullet combos...

An old thread from THR about H110/W296:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=186089

buck460XVR · April 25, 2015, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Short of a verified letter from the both "makers", I'm not buying it.

E-Mail or call Hodgdon, and they will tell you it's the same thing. I have.

SHR970 · April 25, 2015, 10:54 AM

Quote:

The load data on the Hodgdon site lists the exact same charges of H110 and W296 when searching particular caliber/bullet combos...

And PRESSURE, don't forget that the perssures are the same also.

There are several powder combos that are the same between differing labels. Hdgdon's seems to have the bulk of these since they have both Winchester and IMR powders in their portfolio.

I wish the folks who wrote the books would stop pretending that they are different and add the caveat that it may not apply to powders that are more than a decade or two old!

April 23, 2015, 01:53 PM	#1
fshfindr Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 188	357 Rifle Powder? I have only used handgun loads of Unique in my 357's for my Ruger 77-357 rifle. Should I be using rifle powder like h110 or some other powder? Any and all suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks. I'm editing after 44 AMP's reply, maybe someone can suggest a powder or tell me which they use in their 357 Carbine. Still Thanks. __________________ Richard L. Last edited by fshfindr; April 23, 2015 at 02:22 PM.

April 23, 2015, 02:14 PM	#2
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	"Rifle powder" is a somewhat variable term. The slowest pistol powders (2400, H110, etc) are the fastest rifle powders. There are a few rifle cases that are smaller in case capacity than the .357 mag case. .22 Hornet is one. Put 2400 in a Hornet its a rifle powder. Put it in a .357, its a pistol powder. 2400, H110, 296, and a couple of others will give you top end velocities higher than Unique. Out of a carbine or rifle length barrel their performance improves more, proportionately than a fast powder, like Bullseye, or a medium rate like Unique. Slow powders take more grains to reach their peak, so you won't get as many rounds per pound of powder than you will with a faster burning powder. No free lunch. Sorry. moving to Handloading forum __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 23, 2015, 02:52 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I think a lot of folks have the mistaken idea that a longer barrel requires a slower powder, and vice versa. But while there are some odd exceptions, particularly in overbore rifle cartridges, it is generally true that the same powder will turn out to produce the highest velocities from a cartridge in all commonly available barrel lengths for it. What actually determines the powder burn rate are expansion and sectional density of the bullet. Expansion is how much the volume the powder is burning in grows as the bullet moves forward. This volume determines how much gas is needed to sustain pressure. The sectional density determines how quickly that pressure accelerates the bullet. Together they determine how quickly the space the powder is burning in grows, and that determines how fast the powder has to burn to maintain pressure. Notice that the length of the barrel was absent from those considerations. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 23, 2015, 03:24 PM	#4
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	There are load books [Speer 12 comes to mind] that have 357 mag handgun recipes separate from 357 magnum rifle recipes, but they are the same. CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. I have experimented with 38 special in a strong rifle: The SAAMI registered max average pressure for 357 mag is driven by fingertip extraction of 5 or 6 cases with a steel chamber wall 0.050" thick. Tempered cartridge brass cannot match the elastic deformation of even annealed steel, so the .05" thick chamber stretches and comes back to where it was. The brass can take a set [some plastic deformation] and stays bigger. The cases are hard to extract above 35 or 40 kpsi. But in the Ruger 77 with chamber walls 0.750" thick and extracting a single round with a bolt handle prying against the extractor cam, the brass can be extracted to >80 kpsi. Too bad the primer is not up to that. Switching to a CCI 450 magnum small rifle primer, the primer will still pierce in a work up before the brass flows. Send the bolt to Gre-Tan to get the firing pin and hole bushed, and the primer will still pierce first. ~~ 85 kpsi. A disappointing aspect of 158 gr Bullseye at 35kpsi vs 80 kpsi is that there is not much increase in performance from a deer hunting perspective. I have come to the conclusion that reaming out to 357 MAX does not help much. The full solution is to ream to 357 MAX, and throat out to where the bullet is just hanging on with the mouth of the case. Take pointy bullets with boat tails and maybe I can lob one in on a deer at 400 yards with fast killing power. The 200 gr Nosler Accubond comes to mind. ------------------------- But life is so much easier if you let handgun cartridge cabines be handgun cartridge carbines. Use 357 mag book loads, shoot holes in a 100 yard target and say, "Gee whiz, great groups and it does not kick!" __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

April 24, 2015, 09:26 AM	#13
fshfindr Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 188	Salmoneye, Ooops. I did have to replace the rear sight. It is a Skinner sight that needed a longer threaded area. I had turned it up to the point where it ran out of thread and fell out. The bullet is a Lee TL358-158-2R LRN. The BC is .131. Snyper so there certainly is bullet drop and yes it is corrected with the sight. I estimate that it dropped about 4-5 inches. Also, it is advertised as 158 but it drops out at 150-151g. __________________ Richard L.

April 23, 2015, 03:47 PM	#5
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	In a rifle 2400 is going to be hard to beat. It's an older powder but still one of the best for 357, 41 and 44 magnum loads for hunting. Gary

April 23, 2015, 04:00 PM	#6
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	What is it you are looking to improve on? 110 or 296 will give you higher velocity if thats what you want. I've gotten better accuracy out of them than Unique with jacketed bullets in pistol loads. 2400 and 4227 are other popular choices, but I've not used them. Alliant has a fairly new MP-300 I think it s that looks like their version of 110/296. All of these will give you better velocity in upper level magnum loads than Unique if that is what you seek. My manuals have rifle sections for 357 but the only difference in the load data is the velocities.

April 23, 2015, 06:44 PM	#7
fshfindr Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 188	Sorry, I should have included my goal. It's pretty simple, I want to be accurate for a 100 yd. match. So I'm looking for a powder that is accurate. I have been told that there is excessive drop and from what I have seen with just one experience at 100 yds, my 158g LRN did drop maybe 4-6 inches at 100 yds. I had to change my rear sight since it would not adjust down far enough. If the weather ever cooperates, I'll try again. Thanks. __________________ Richard L.

April 23, 2015, 09:40 PM	#8
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	What kind of bullets are / will you be using? swaged, cast, plated, or jacketd? It can make a difference. You have to keep velocities down with swaged, cast you need to avoid certain powders that will scorch the base, plated can be driven harder (depends on brand and type), and jacketed you can drive as hard as you want. This can and will make a difference in the powder choices that are suited to your application.

April 24, 2015, 08:11 AM	#12
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	Your powder choice should match your bullet, and your bullet will be the most critical component for accurracy. Does this match limit your bullet choices?

April 24, 2015, 10:05 AM	#15
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	Herco is a great powder in .357 Magnum with 158 grain cast bullets; rifle or revolver. I think the load is 8.0 grains, but not sure; I haven't loaded any .357's in a while. You need to look up real load data if you choose to try it. AA#7 is good too; I use it more with jacketed bullets. Neither of these are absolutely-the-highest-FPS powders but they're up there, and accurate, and economical to use. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

April 24, 2015, 11:51 AM	#16
Reloader270 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2015 Location: South Africa Posts: 138	We use a powder S265 which is +- the same as IMR4227. I load 15.0grain, but I use Fed 205 primers (SR). I also use a little decron filler. I shoot it in my Marlin .357Magnum and I get a velocity of 1600fps on 158grain JSP bullets. I use this combination for the reason that without the decron and the SR primer I experienced a lot a unburned powder in the barrel after shooting. After using the decron and SR primer, the unburned powder is almost eliminated. I had also tried CCI400 and CCI450 SR primers, but the Marlin had problems with a few of them not being struck hard enough to ignite. The Federal 205 SR Primers works every time. The Marlin also has micro grooving and that is probably the reason for lower pressure and therefore unburned flakes in the barrel after firing.

April 24, 2015, 12:03 PM	#17
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,894	Either.... VN-110, or W296/H110

April 24, 2015, 06:31 PM	#18
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	DO NOT use Alliant 410, Blue Dot, or Hodgdon Lil Gun for this application. They all burn real hot and will likely damage the base of the bullets resulting in poorer accuracy. The question at this time is what powder(s) do you have on hand or can readily get? Med slow to slow powders are in order.

April 24, 2015, 06:34 PM	#19
fshfindr Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 188	You are the greatest. I have reread this twice and will probably reread again tomro. I don't claim to be the brightest shooter in the world, but I can put the target right in my sight picture. I got about as much info from you that I can absorb. I will go with 110, or 296 or 2400 in that order depending on availability. Thank You. __________________ Richard L.

April 24, 2015, 06:39 PM	#20
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,894	Make sure you don't confuse ... - V(ihtavuori)N-110 with - H-110.

April 24, 2015, 06:44 PM	#21
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	H110 and W296 are the same thing! And if you are going with that speed range of powders, AA#9 is another candidate.