What to do about a lusy gunsmithing job? - Page 2

sleeping dog · September 6, 2002, 10:36 PM

The rear sight base is pretty much butchered. I'd just remove it. Or replace it.

Regards.

Rifter · September 7, 2002, 11:45 AM

what this guys e-mail address? if enough people get in contact with him about this maybe he will realize that he is going to lose ALOT of business over it and make it right. I would not have paid money for the DAMAGE he did, note i didnt say work i said damage.

Oleg Volk · September 7, 2002, 12:05 PM

He's not on-line. Probably doesn't realize how fast news travel that way.

I am researching small claims court options.

hd51fl · September 10, 2002, 10:26 PM

Oleg, I have done a couple of the rear peep arrangements, and the guy may have done you a favor, that is if you can live with out the charge guide. If a person wishes to use an adjustable apareture sight, you need to cheat the base forward to clear the bolt. The peep sticks too far to the rear otherwise. The adjustabe opening is a joy to use, and you control the opening size, and the amount of light by twisting. As you vary the size of the opening, you will notice the front sight either clear or fuzz up. This allows you to quickly bring your front sight into focus without changing peeps. Millet makes them.
Yeah, the guy is a butcher, but if you sporterize this thing don't be to hasty to move the rear base. Mike

Betty · September 11, 2002, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Yeah, the guy is a butcher, but if you sporterize this thing don't be to hasty to move the rear base.

He was hired as a professional to do a professional job, which he did not do, and he did not conduct himself in a professional manner afterwards.

He was specifically asked to install the rear sight ONLY IF stripper clips could be used with it - that "gunsmith" had no right to go ahead and install it otherwise.

Also, that "gunsmith", being the professional, has the obligation to say "I can't do that," - meaning if he could not complete the job in a satisfactory manner within the time specified by the customer, than he should have said so. Oleg did not say, "Oh, I'll take a half-ass hack job on the original rear sight, as long as you're done by tomorrow." Oleg was not pushy.

If this "gunsmith" had any ounce of pride in his craft, he should have remedied the problem instead of trying to sell Oleg an equivalent rifle as "compensation".

James K · September 11, 2002, 08:39 PM

I would almost bet that "gunsmith", if he is under 50, has no idea what a clip is or how it is used. He probably wonders what that funny looking hole in the receiver is for.

Jim

Kaylee · September 11, 2002, 10:09 PM

for what it's worth, it's also entirely possible to have a rear aperature sight not interfere with either bolt handle OR clip guide -- I've an old 1903 that was sporterized in the 60's or so, and all parts work together fine.

So jah, hack job. :barf:

-K

He tried to sell Oleg a replacement?

Guy's got nerve.

Oleg Volk · September 11, 2002, 10:17 PM

I will take the rifle to the next gun show and a poster on it. I don't think small claims court would be worth my time.

hd51fl · September 11, 2002, 10:32 PM

You guys are correct, it is possible to have a rear peep that does not block the bolt, and that the guy is not a professional. However, the facts that the guy is not a professional and that one of you has an '03 are not germain to what I said. I do not care how the sight got to be where it is or whether or not an '03 can have a sight that does not interfer with the bolt.
Engage your brain. It is easy to huff and puff about what you would do, but this does not rectify the situation. The shop owner seems unwilling to bend, and following some of the advice given here would probably land Oleg in jail. Should Oleg decide to sue, his only cheap way out would be in a small claims court. He would have to prove that negligence not incompetence was the the reason the sight was mismounted. That is damn unlikely to happen.
Oleg is probably stuck with what he has. He can either be pissed off, get over it or make the best of a bad situation. Yes, even a Mauser can have a peep that does not interfer with the bolt, but there is little clearance and none if one uses an adjustable peep by Merrit. Do you even know what I am talking about, or are you like the guy who put on the sight? That is, ready to jump in without the experience or knowledge to help Oleg out.
Oleg, I say again, should you decide to sporterize contemplate keeping the base where it is. If you would like to try a Merrit, to see what I mean, I will mail you one of mine to try. Just send it back in a couple of weeks. Mike

Betty · September 12, 2002, 02:21 PM

Quote:

He would have to prove that negligence not incompetence was the the reason the sight was mismounted. That is damn unlikely to happen.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd say if Oleg took it took court, he'd win easily and recover court costs.

Oleg saw the workmanship on other rifles, including similar ones, that was done at this shop. He advertised as a professional gunsmith who can do a professional gunsmith job. After seeing his previous handiwork, he had no reason to believe otherwise.

Being incompetant also doesn't make this "gunsmith" any less responsible.

Oleg said,"I only want the rear sight installed if I can use stripper clips." apparently, the gunsmith couldn't do it that way, but he installed it anyway.

He also reassembled the rifle improperly (negligently; seeing the other rifles in the shop, we knew this wasn't the first time he's had his hands on a Mauser). Luckily, Oleg was not injured when the rifle fell apart when he fired it -- otherwise there would be a medical bill to deal with afterwards.

Quote:

Do you even know what I am talking about, or are you like the guy who put on the sight? That is, ready to jump in without the experience or knowledge to help Oleg out.

If this comment was meant for me, please hold the mild condescending remarks. I do know what I'm talking about. I've seen the small claims court system at work many, many times, and no, I'm not talking about Court TV.

I've also had the rifle in my hands, before and after the hack job. And I was there at the shop. I'm a witness.

hd51fl · September 12, 2002, 05:33 PM

I'd say that no, you do not know what I am talking about. In fact you are right back moaning and groaning about Oleg's problem, with the gunsmith, instead of correcting me and telling me that it is Merit and not Millet that sells the adjustable peep. So, it appears as if you jumped right in moaning and groaning again without being able to comprehend what I had said to Oleg.
Life is not always getting what you want. Sometimes you get screwed. How you deal with that is what counts. The number of candles on a birthday cake has nothing to do with maturity. The ability to rise above a royal screwing is a better indicator.
If a person takes another person to court over a couple of bucks, and that is all that is really at stake here, how much per hour is the takee selling his time,his life, his peace of mind for?
Oh you say, this is not about money. That other individual screwed me! So he screwed you; are you now going to obsess about it and give that other individual control of your life? Being angry is okay. Letting that anger control your life to the point of parading around a gun show with a poster attached to a bungled up rifle, does not speak well of the one carrying the sign. Life is to short and uncertain to waste trying to get even with an uncaring, unprofessional gunsmith.
What I mentioned in my first post, was a way, and not the only way, to salvage not only part of the rifle, but a way for Oleg to experience something new, and perhaps gain further knowledge of his hobby. I didn't then, and I don't now give a darn how many rifles people own with peep sights, or about this gunsmith's problems.
A few years ago I had a nice rifle screwed up by a 'gunsmith.' It required a new barrel when he finished, and it was wearing a new Douglas XX when he started. I spoke with the fella a few weeks ago. I was nice and polite, but he will never get any business of mine again. And no, I don't bad mouth him. Had I stayed angry at him, how much of my life would have been spent in that state? It isn't worth it.
I spent today day in the shop milling out a falling block action on a Bridgeport. I also have a lathe and enough tools to do my own work now.
For a few bucks, probably less than $100, Oleg could set himself up so that he would not be dependent on others to do simple jobs. It is either run around in circles with the other mad dogs, or grow from the screwing. I hope you understand by now, 'cause I ain't awastin' no more time on it. Mike

Kirk Keller · September 12, 2002, 06:08 PM

Sounds like HD51fl works for Custom Gunsmithing...

So if Oleg fails to return your peepsight after he gets a look at it, are you going to encourage yourself to just forget it and move on? Or are you gonna run around in circles with the other "mad dogs"?

A little civility goes a long way on this board.

Betty · September 12, 2002, 06:55 PM

Quote:

I'd say that no, you do not know what I am talking about. In fact you are right back moaning and groaning about Oleg's problem, with the gunsmith, instead of correcting me and telling me that it is Merit and not Millet that sells the adjustable peep. So, it appears as if you jumped right in moaning and groaning again without being able to comprehend what I had said to Oleg.

And we continue with the mild condescending remarks.

If you can't get your brand names straight, that's your issue.

I think the original problem began here:

Quote:

Yeah, the guy is a butcher, but if you sporterize this thing don't be to hasty to move the rear base.

Maybe you meant trying out new sights, but it came across as, "He was a butcher, but you shouldn't have been hasty and hurried him," - as if you were placing blame on Oleg for the hack job, because, as the gunsmith claimed, Oleg wanted it done fast. So I answered this with why it wasn't his fault. The misinterpretation was a mistake on my part, and I apologize. Reciprocate? I in no way warranted your condescending language. "Rise above" it.

I am trying to ensure that maybe this won't happen to the next person who comes across this "gunsmith" - by suggesting to Oleg that he should take this man to court. The smith will have to be a man and face his responsibility instead of acting like a barking dog and trying to intimidate Oleg.

You're right, it's not about the money. There's not alot of money at stake here. It's about doing the right thing; what the "gunsmith" should've done in the first place. I don't mind taking time out of my day to get the problem remedied. It's not eating me inside out and causing me to lose sleep, either. It's not sick, warped revenge.

Go to the "Retail Deals and Feedback" forum here. There's gun owners trying to keep other gun owners from getting screwed. I'd like to know who's out there practicing bad business so I don't receive the same treatment.

This gunsmith goes by word of mouth. Why not walk around with the rifle at a show? Others will see it and remember, and hopefully it'll keep someone from ending up with a permanently mutilated family heirloom after he sends his prized gun to this smith. (Luckily, Oleg's rifle is an economically priced, non-heirloom.)

If Oleg chooses not to take any action, than that is his business. It's his rifle. It's his time.

If I saw you turning in your vehicle in to a notoriously bad auto shop for repair, I'd stop and tell you. If that's considered obsessing about how I had been screwed over by this repair shop, or "badmouthing", than call it so. You'd be happy not getting a bad brake job, losing control of your vehicle and smashing into a tree.

This is where I got the sign carrying idea from: A person I know bought a brand new car and it was a complete lemon. The dealership gave him the runaround continuously so they wouldn't have to deal with the repairs. He wrote, "(Company name) sold me a brand new lemon and doesn't care" on a big piece of posterboard, and taped it to the back of his lemon. He drove around like that. People saw it. The dealership called him in and swiftly dealt with the lemon problem. His car's fixed now.

(Edited for typo)

hd51fl · September 13, 2002, 06:29 PM

KMKeller, Should Oleg steal from me, that is his problem. I would not have to convince myself to forget it. My problem would be that I trusted him. Personal responsibility, that means that if I make a decision, I am responsible for the results of that decision. If Oleg makes a decision to steal the peep, why would I fault him? I made the decision to offer to loan it to him. It is not like he crept into my shop under cover of darkness. Can you grasp that? The responsibility for choice behavior remains with the one making the choice, popular psychology aside.
Oleg should retain a little responsibility for his actions in regards his rifle. He had the opportunity to research this tradesman, he had the option of giving complete written instructions, he had the option of handing over a drawing of what he wanted, and he could have epoxied the thing in place to see if it would work as he wanted. He choose not to do these things. He took the chance I will take if he askes to borrow my peep. I will accept what comes my way as a result of my decision. Can you say that about the decisions you make? It isn't easy, but it is a damn sight better than not having a backbone.
I made a simple remark to Oleg. 'Do not be too hasty to move the rear base. ' It is in English, and quite plain in meaning. Any inferred meaning is within the person reading it. Runt decided to land on me due to the reasons he imported into the sentence I wrote. To that I say, if you cannot take it do not dish it out. Don't expect to vent on others and then climb up on your high horse and protest the treatment you get in return. Again personal responsibility. Runt decided to jump on me for offering Oleg a potentially helpful pointer. He bears responsibility for his actions. The question is whether or not he can shoulder it. He has apologized, and I accept it. It is up to him how he internalizes it.
I ain't p.o., upset, or angry over this. I have not got time to be. I am dissappointed though. So many gut reactions, and so little rational logic. It would have been such a pleasure to read that someone took the time to research the adjustable peep, to see that someone was eager to learn and grow. It would even have been nice to be corrected about the name as that would indicate that someone had checked, rather than remaining locked into what they already are sure of.
I wonder if Ann Landers got such responses to the statement, "If life hands you lemons, make lemonade."

Kirk Keller · September 15, 2002, 09:25 AM

hd51fl

Couple of flaws in your logic though. First, I think if Oleg had wanted to sporterize the piece, he would have taken it in and asked to have it sporterized. I agree that everyone should do their best to let bygones be bygones, but allowing someone to screw you over without doing something about it only ensures that this person will do the same to someone else down the road.

You speak of how refreshing it would be to see someone do a little research (of the peepsight) and learn and grow. I too would have loved to have seen a little research and growth on your part. Had you done a modicum of research, you would have learned that our Runt of the Litter is not a he, but a she and that Runt and Oleg have a very longstanding and somewhat emotional attachment to each other. Therefore, her indignant response to your dismissal of the 'smiths' incompetence is wholly understandable. Your attitude from your first post on has been dismissive and superior, where neither were appropriate and were based wholly upon your complete ignorance of the larger dynamics at work.

There are some of us left in this world who expect an honest effort for an honest dollar and are unwilling to allow someone to screw us. If you find that morally pleasing for yourself, more power to you, just don't try to feed it to others and expect them to swallow.

I believe if Oleg had asked what he could do with the weapon after it was butchered, your viewpoint would have been salient and wholly appreciated. The vein of this thread was indeed what to do about a lousy gunsmithing job, but it is clear from Oleg's first post that the question was geared towards how to obtain justice. Your posts were dismissive of his request and seemed to both defend the hack and blame Oleg for expecting that a good job be done. Where's the "rational logic" in that approach?

I can appreciate that you were trying to be helpful, but it would seem that you had an ulterior motive for interjecting into the thread. Was it perhaps to sell something to Oleg?

hd51fl · September 15, 2002, 12:09 PM

KMKeller, It is often that we judge others by the motives we ourselves have. Is that how you come up with the idea that I had an ulterior motive? Perhaps you are not able to deal with people on an honest straight forward basis, and see that in others. I, on the other hand prefer to be up front, take chances on the good of others and suffer the consequences of my bad decisions. People are quite amazing, I have had numerous people contact me asking if I had any left over parts from a couple of classic cars I had. When I have told them yes and that I would ship and then email the cost of shipping to them, not one stiffed me. I gave them the parts as it was better to see the parts in use than gathering dust in my shop. I'd guess I shipped to about 10 people in this way. But I'm not a fool, I would not trust you.
If we wish to discuss logic, please explain how it is logical that Oleg's prior intent should should dictate his future actions. I may intend to buy a new car, keep it forever in mint condition, but if some one destroys it, it is not illogical to make the best of the situation. Man, or is that girl, you need to get your thought process straightened out. Life must be difficult when one is unable to think.
Which brings us to the point, should I post my sexual preference, all past and present sexual experiences, a list of relatives, friends and accquaintances prior to posting? Have you done the same? I missed that box when I was registering. Do you know of a site on the web where I may research this info for at least the populace of the posters of this board? It must be dark where you keep your head.
I would imagine that if you heard of, and I am only guessing now and giving you unearned credit, a mugger suing the person he tried to mug for beating the crapola out of him/her, you would think that is wrong. If you attack someone, you should expect to take a good shot back. And remember, I was jumped on with both feet. ( I don't need to make quips about people pointing fruit at me. I will defend myself.) The point you are putting forth here is basically that the mugger is entitled to sue, and yet you contradict yourself when you say that you are among those who will not allow themselves to be screwed. But then, perhaps you have an ulterior motive in defending Runt. Maybe you really think the mugger is right, and you just want something from Runt.
Now, when you find that this pisses you off, remember that you attacked me. Have enough spine, I doubt enough intelligence to reason through this, to accept that you asked for this. After all, you are the one who promulgates the idea that we should attack those who offend us. You are dismissed. Oh, and work on your understanding of personal responsibility. Sheesh, to think they let you have guns. Mike
P.S. The latin term for the false arguments you put forth, and for which I returned in kind, is ad hominem. It means against the man. This is the type of argument used by those unthinking individuals who feel that it is best to attack the person than come up with logical points that refute the other persons argument. I just wanted to demonstrate back to you what you were doing. I doubt that you are introspective enough to see it in yourself. Maybe my answer will goad you into thinking.

gk1 · September 15, 2002, 01:20 PM

hd51fl, your attitude sucks, and you haven't contributed anything useful to this thread. Maybe you should just crawl back under your rock, as the "turn the other cheek" message is clear, though the way you presented it is just rude. I (and I presume the others reading) don't need you to tell us to bend over and like it; Oleg's gunsmith has already offered that option. This is a discussion of a REASONABLE resolution to an unacceptable situation, not an argument about whether or not it is reasonable to expect a resolution. May I suggest that you take your own advice, and just let it drop?

George

Kirk Keller · September 15, 2002, 04:46 PM

hd51fl

Your nonsensical ravings don't even warrant a response, I believe they speak loudly and clearly for all here.

hd51fl · September 15, 2002, 11:10 PM

KMKeller, gk1 No, this is not a discussion of a reasonable solution to a bungled gun. This is a response to my being jumped on for offering a practical option if Oleg was going to sporterize his rifle. This is also an attack on me for offering to lend something to Oleg.
KMKeller, That you are unable to comprehend, is apparent. That you are ignorant is apparent. Let me put this clearly. I was attacked without reason, and it pains you that I did not roll over. Typical bully syndrome. I will drop this, but only because I can see that what you were unable to learn at your mother's knee, I will not be able to teach you. Besides, if I continue this, I will have to start charging you for the therapy. Read your last post, it seems to me that you are beginning to rave. Drooling too?
gk1, Could not come up with a good argument? Ad hominem, remember that from the last post I made. God you are a sharp one. Out of all that I had written, you were not bright enough to find fault with one point. The method you dislike, big deal, try and refute me. No don't bother, you won't get a response. I have wasted enough time trying to get KMKellers brain kickstarted, I have no time for you. Mike

Kirk Keller · September 16, 2002, 06:31 AM

Ooooo, owww, I'm wounded... As before, your lunatic ravings speak volumes.

Ed Brunner · September 16, 2002, 06:32 AM

This is a good opportunity for everybody to hang it up on this one. Point and counterpoint is not helping the issue of Oleg and his rifle. Who is right and who is wrong at this point isn't as important as what is helpful and what isn't.

Oleg Volk · September 16, 2002, 07:19 AM

I appreciate the offer of the peep sight, I will hold off on that simply because my schedule is quite busy now and I am not certain when I'll get to work on the rifle.

It would be nice if all the well-meaning folks here on TFL stopped picking on each other, even if it is done on my behalf.

Harry Bonar · January 25, 2005, 11:52 AM

Dear Sir:
I know how you feel. But, as I lost my son to a drunk driver last year I first thought of shooting this guy; instead I went and told him off face to face and now, after him getting nothing, I have just washed my hands of the entire thing. Joe would have wanted it that way (Joe Bonar of Novaks 45 Shop.)
I don't know what to say; but why don't you just do the same and rely on the Forum guys to steer you to a good smith.
Just a suggestion; but it still hurts - right?

Harry Bonar · January 25, 2005, 11:54 AM

Dear Sir:
I know how you feel. But, as I lost my son to a drunk driver last year I first thought of shooting this guy; instead I went and told him off face to face and now, after him getting nothing, I have just washed my hands of the entire thing. Joe would have wanted it that way (Joe Bonar of Novaks 45 Shop.)
I don't know what to say; but why don't you just do the same and rely on the Forum guys to steer you to a good smith.
Just a suggestion; but it still hurts - right?

Sorry but I didn't know about the post timimg.

September 7, 2002, 12:05 PM	#28
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	He's not on-line. Probably doesn't realize how fast news travel that way. I am researching small claims court options. __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

September 11, 2002, 10:17 PM	#33
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	I will take the rifle to the next gun show and a poster on it. I don't think small claims court would be worth my time. __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

September 12, 2002, 06:08 PM	#37
Kirk Keller Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2001 Location: NC Posts: 808	Sounds like HD51fl works for Custom Gunsmithing... So if Oleg fails to return your peepsight after he gets a look at it, are you going to encourage yourself to just forget it and move on? Or are you gonna run around in circles with the other "mad dogs"? A little civility goes a long way on this board. __________________ Proud TFL Alumnus

September 15, 2002, 09:25 AM	#40
Kirk Keller Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2001 Location: NC Posts: 808	hd51fl Couple of flaws in your logic though. First, I think if Oleg had wanted to sporterize the piece, he would have taken it in and asked to have it sporterized. I agree that everyone should do their best to let bygones be bygones, but allowing someone to screw you over without doing something about it only ensures that this person will do the same to someone else down the road. You speak of how refreshing it would be to see someone do a little research (of the peepsight) and learn and grow. I too would have loved to have seen a little research and growth on your part. Had you done a modicum of research, you would have learned that our Runt of the Litter is not a he, but a she and that Runt and Oleg have a very longstanding and somewhat emotional attachment to each other. Therefore, her indignant response to your dismissal of the 'smiths' incompetence is wholly understandable. Your attitude from your first post on has been dismissive and superior, where neither were appropriate and were based wholly upon your complete ignorance of the larger dynamics at work. There are some of us left in this world who expect an honest effort for an honest dollar and are unwilling to allow someone to screw us. If you find that morally pleasing for yourself, more power to you, just don't try to feed it to others and expect them to swallow. I believe if Oleg had asked what he could do with the weapon after it was butchered, your viewpoint would have been salient and wholly appreciated. The vein of this thread was indeed what to do about a lousy gunsmithing job, but it is clear from Oleg's first post that the question was geared towards how to obtain justice. Your posts were dismissive of his request and seemed to both defend the hack and blame Oleg for expecting that a good job be done. Where's the "rational logic" in that approach? I can appreciate that you were trying to be helpful, but it would seem that you had an ulterior motive for interjecting into the thread. Was it perhaps to sell something to Oleg? __________________ Proud TFL Alumnus

September 15, 2002, 04:46 PM	#43
Kirk Keller Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2001 Location: NC Posts: 808	hd51fl Your nonsensical ravings don't even warrant a response, I believe they speak loudly and clearly for all here. __________________ Proud TFL Alumnus

September 6, 2002, 10:36 PM	#26
sleeping dog Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2000 Location: MI Posts: 536	The rear sight base is pretty much butchered. I'd just remove it. Or replace it. Regards.

September 7, 2002, 11:45 AM	#27
Rifter Member Join Date: August 21, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 82	what this guys e-mail address? if enough people get in contact with him about this maybe he will realize that he is going to lose ALOT of business over it and make it right. I would not have paid money for the DAMAGE he did, note i didnt say work i said damage.

September 10, 2002, 10:26 PM	#29
hd51fl Junior Member Join Date: September 10, 2002 Posts: 9	Oleg, I have done a couple of the rear peep arrangements, and the guy may have done you a favor, that is if you can live with out the charge guide. If a person wishes to use an adjustable apareture sight, you need to cheat the base forward to clear the bolt. The peep sticks too far to the rear otherwise. The adjustabe opening is a joy to use, and you control the opening size, and the amount of light by twisting. As you vary the size of the opening, you will notice the front sight either clear or fuzz up. This allows you to quickly bring your front sight into focus without changing peeps. Millet makes them. Yeah, the guy is a butcher, but if you sporterize this thing don't be to hasty to move the rear base. Mike

September 11, 2002, 08:39 PM	#31
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I would almost bet that "gunsmith", if he is under 50, has no idea what a clip is or how it is used. He probably wonders what that funny looking hole in the receiver is for. Jim

September 11, 2002, 10:09 PM	#32
Kaylee Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2000 Location: The Last Homely House Posts: 1,677	for what it's worth, it's also entirely possible to have a rear aperature sight not interfere with either bolt handle OR clip guide -- I've an old 1903 that was sporterized in the 60's or so, and all parts work together fine. So jah, hack job. :barf: -K He tried to sell Oleg a replacement? Guy's got nerve.

September 11, 2002, 10:32 PM	#34
hd51fl Junior Member Join Date: September 10, 2002 Posts: 9	You guys are correct, it is possible to have a rear peep that does not block the bolt, and that the guy is not a professional. However, the facts that the guy is not a professional and that one of you has an '03 are not germain to what I said. I do not care how the sight got to be where it is or whether or not an '03 can have a sight that does not interfer with the bolt. Engage your brain. It is easy to huff and puff about what you would do, but this does not rectify the situation. The shop owner seems unwilling to bend, and following some of the advice given here would probably land Oleg in jail. Should Oleg decide to sue, his only cheap way out would be in a small claims court. He would have to prove that negligence not incompetence was the the reason the sight was mismounted. That is damn unlikely to happen. Oleg is probably stuck with what he has. He can either be pissed off, get over it or make the best of a bad situation. Yes, even a Mauser can have a peep that does not interfer with the bolt, but there is little clearance and none if one uses an adjustable peep by Merrit. Do you even know what I am talking about, or are you like the guy who put on the sight? That is, ready to jump in without the experience or knowledge to help Oleg out. Oleg, I say again, should you decide to sporterize contemplate keeping the base where it is. If you would like to try a Merrit, to see what I mean, I will mail you one of mine to try. Just send it back in a couple of weeks. Mike

September 12, 2002, 05:33 PM	#36
hd51fl Junior Member Join Date: September 10, 2002 Posts: 9	I'd say that no, you do not know what I am talking about. In fact you are right back moaning and groaning about Oleg's problem, with the gunsmith, instead of correcting me and telling me that it is Merit and not Millet that sells the adjustable peep. So, it appears as if you jumped right in moaning and groaning again without being able to comprehend what I had said to Oleg. Life is not always getting what you want. Sometimes you get screwed. How you deal with that is what counts. The number of candles on a birthday cake has nothing to do with maturity. The ability to rise above a royal screwing is a better indicator. If a person takes another person to court over a couple of bucks, and that is all that is really at stake here, how much per hour is the takee selling his time,his life, his peace of mind for? Oh you say, this is not about money. That other individual screwed me! So he screwed you; are you now going to obsess about it and give that other individual control of your life? Being angry is okay. Letting that anger control your life to the point of parading around a gun show with a poster attached to a bungled up rifle, does not speak well of the one carrying the sign. Life is to short and uncertain to waste trying to get even with an uncaring, unprofessional gunsmith. What I mentioned in my first post, was a way, and not the only way, to salvage not only part of the rifle, but a way for Oleg to experience something new, and perhaps gain further knowledge of his hobby. I didn't then, and I don't now give a darn how many rifles people own with peep sights, or about this gunsmith's problems. A few years ago I had a nice rifle screwed up by a 'gunsmith.' It required a new barrel when he finished, and it was wearing a new Douglas XX when he started. I spoke with the fella a few weeks ago. I was nice and polite, but he will never get any business of mine again. And no, I don't bad mouth him. Had I stayed angry at him, how much of my life would have been spent in that state? It isn't worth it. I spent today day in the shop milling out a falling block action on a Bridgeport. I also have a lathe and enough tools to do my own work now. For a few bucks, probably less than $100, Oleg could set himself up so that he would not be dependent on others to do simple jobs. It is either run around in circles with the other mad dogs, or grow from the screwing. I hope you understand by now, 'cause I ain't awastin' no more time on it. Mike

September 13, 2002, 06:29 PM	#39
hd51fl Junior Member Join Date: September 10, 2002 Posts: 9	KMKeller, Should Oleg steal from me, that is his problem. I would not have to convince myself to forget it. My problem would be that I trusted him. Personal responsibility, that means that if I make a decision, I am responsible for the results of that decision. If Oleg makes a decision to steal the peep, why would I fault him? I made the decision to offer to loan it to him. It is not like he crept into my shop under cover of darkness. Can you grasp that? The responsibility for choice behavior remains with the one making the choice, popular psychology aside. Oleg should retain a little responsibility for his actions in regards his rifle. He had the opportunity to research this tradesman, he had the option of giving complete written instructions, he had the option of handing over a drawing of what he wanted, and he could have epoxied the thing in place to see if it would work as he wanted. He choose not to do these things. He took the chance I will take if he askes to borrow my peep. I will accept what comes my way as a result of my decision. Can you say that about the decisions you make? It isn't easy, but it is a damn sight better than not having a backbone. I made a simple remark to Oleg. 'Do not be too hasty to move the rear base. ' It is in English, and quite plain in meaning. Any inferred meaning is within the person reading it. Runt decided to land on me due to the reasons he imported into the sentence I wrote. To that I say, if you cannot take it do not dish it out. Don't expect to vent on others and then climb up on your high horse and protest the treatment you get in return. Again personal responsibility. Runt decided to jump on me for offering Oleg a potentially helpful pointer. He bears responsibility for his actions. The question is whether or not he can shoulder it. He has apologized, and I accept it. It is up to him how he internalizes it. I ain't p.o., upset, or angry over this. I have not got time to be. I am dissappointed though. So many gut reactions, and so little rational logic. It would have been such a pleasure to read that someone took the time to research the adjustable peep, to see that someone was eager to learn and grow. It would even have been nice to be corrected about the name as that would indicate that someone had checked, rather than remaining locked into what they already are sure of. I wonder if Ann Landers got such responses to the statement, "If life hands you lemons, make lemonade."

September 15, 2002, 12:09 PM	#41
hd51fl Junior Member Join Date: September 10, 2002 Posts: 9	KMKeller, It is often that we judge others by the motives we ourselves have. Is that how you come up with the idea that I had an ulterior motive? Perhaps you are not able to deal with people on an honest straight forward basis, and see that in others. I, on the other hand prefer to be up front, take chances on the good of others and suffer the consequences of my bad decisions. People are quite amazing, I have had numerous people contact me asking if I had any left over parts from a couple of classic cars I had. When I have told them yes and that I would ship and then email the cost of shipping to them, not one stiffed me. I gave them the parts as it was better to see the parts in use than gathering dust in my shop. I'd guess I shipped to about 10 people in this way. But I'm not a fool, I would not trust you. If we wish to discuss logic, please explain how it is logical that Oleg's prior intent should should dictate his future actions. I may intend to buy a new car, keep it forever in mint condition, but if some one destroys it, it is not illogical to make the best of the situation. Man, or is that girl, you need to get your thought process straightened out. Life must be difficult when one is unable to think. Which brings us to the point, should I post my sexual preference, all past and present sexual experiences, a list of relatives, friends and accquaintances prior to posting? Have you done the same? I missed that box when I was registering. Do you know of a site on the web where I may research this info for at least the populace of the posters of this board? It must be dark where you keep your head. I would imagine that if you heard of, and I am only guessing now and giving you unearned credit, a mugger suing the person he tried to mug for beating the crapola out of him/her, you would think that is wrong. If you attack someone, you should expect to take a good shot back. And remember, I was jumped on with both feet. ( I don't need to make quips about people pointing fruit at me. I will defend myself.) The point you are putting forth here is basically that the mugger is entitled to sue, and yet you contradict yourself when you say that you are among those who will not allow themselves to be screwed. But then, perhaps you have an ulterior motive in defending Runt. Maybe you really think the mugger is right, and you just want something from Runt. Now, when you find that this pisses you off, remember that you attacked me. Have enough spine, I doubt enough intelligence to reason through this, to accept that you asked for this. After all, you are the one who promulgates the idea that we should attack those who offend us. You are dismissed. Oh, and work on your understanding of personal responsibility. Sheesh, to think they let you have guns. Mike P.S. The latin term for the false arguments you put forth, and for which I returned in kind, is ad hominem. It means against the man. This is the type of argument used by those unthinking individuals who feel that it is best to attack the person than come up with logical points that refute the other persons argument. I just wanted to demonstrate back to you what you were doing. I doubt that you are introspective enough to see it in yourself. Maybe my answer will goad you into thinking.

September 15, 2002, 01:20 PM	#42
gk1 Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2002 Posts: 108	hd51fl, your attitude sucks, and you haven't contributed anything useful to this thread. Maybe you should just crawl back under your rock, as the "turn the other cheek" message is clear, though the way you presented it is just rude. I (and I presume the others reading) don't need you to tell us to bend over and like it; Oleg's gunsmith has already offered that option. This is a discussion of a REASONABLE resolution to an unacceptable situation, not an argument about whether or not it is reasonable to expect a resolution. May I suggest that you take your own advice, and just let it drop? George

September 15, 2002, 11:10 PM	#44
hd51fl Junior Member Join Date: September 10, 2002 Posts: 9	KMKeller, gk1 No, this is not a discussion of a reasonable solution to a bungled gun. This is a response to my being jumped on for offering a practical option if Oleg was going to sporterize his rifle. This is also an attack on me for offering to lend something to Oleg. KMKeller, That you are unable to comprehend, is apparent. That you are ignorant is apparent. Let me put this clearly. I was attacked without reason, and it pains you that I did not roll over. Typical bully syndrome. I will drop this, but only because I can see that what you were unable to learn at your mother's knee, I will not be able to teach you. Besides, if I continue this, I will have to start charging you for the therapy. Read your last post, it seems to me that you are beginning to rave. Drooling too? gk1, Could not come up with a good argument? Ad hominem, remember that from the last post I made. God you are a sharp one. Out of all that I had written, you were not bright enough to find fault with one point. The method you dislike, big deal, try and refute me. No don't bother, you won't get a response. I have wasted enough time trying to get KMKellers brain kickstarted, I have no time for you. Mike

September 16, 2002, 06:31 AM	#45
Kirk Keller Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2001 Location: NC Posts: 808	Ooooo, owww, I'm wounded... As before, your lunatic ravings speak volumes. __________________ Proud TFL Alumnus

September 16, 2002, 06:32 AM	#46
Ed Brunner Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Natchez, MS, USA Posts: 2,562	This is a good opportunity for everybody to hang it up on this one. Point and counterpoint is not helping the issue of Oleg and his rifle. Who is right and who is wrong at this point isn't as important as what is helpful and what isn't. __________________ MOLON LABE UNTIL IT'S OVER! Ed

September 16, 2002, 07:19 AM	#47
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	I appreciate the offer of the peep sight, I will hold off on that simply because my schedule is quite busy now and I am not certain when I'll get to work on the rifle. It would be nice if all the well-meaning folks here on TFL stopped picking on each other, even if it is done on my behalf. __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

January 25, 2005, 11:52 AM	#48
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	gunsmith? Dear Sir: I know how you feel. But, as I lost my son to a drunk driver last year I first thought of shooting this guy; instead I went and told him off face to face and now, after him getting nothing, I have just washed my hands of the entire thing. Joe would have wanted it that way (Joe Bonar of Novaks 45 Shop.) I don't know what to say; but why don't you just do the same and rely on the Forum guys to steer you to a good smith. Just a suggestion; but it still hurts - right?

January 25, 2005, 11:54 AM	#49
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	gunsmith? Dear Sir: I know how you feel. But, as I lost my son to a drunk driver last year I first thought of shooting this guy; instead I went and told him off face to face and now, after him getting nothing, I have just washed my hands of the entire thing. Joe would have wanted it that way (Joe Bonar of Novaks 45 Shop.) I don't know what to say; but why don't you just do the same and rely on the Forum guys to steer you to a good smith. Just a suggestion; but it still hurts - right? Sorry but I didn't know about the post timimg.