44 mag vs 45 lc

[riomedinamike]

One thing only a few replies have addressed is you should narrow your question: what do you want to use the revolver and rifle for?

Some have questioned the rim thickness on the 45 colt being thinner, and thus creates the possibility of less reliable extraction in a rifle. I have no problems with my one Marlin lever action in 45 colt, but I do own a lot more 44 mag rifles (including a Ruger bolt gun 77/44).

I reload a lot, so factory ammo availability isn't an issue for me. Plus, hi performance handloads are very much less expensive than the niche ammo sellers like Buffalo Bore and others. Their ammo is great, but you pay a lot for someone else to load the hot 45 colt loads.

Then again, I mainly shoot deer and hogs, so mid-range loads in my revolvers (240 to 255 grain bullets at around 900-950 fps) do everything I need without the big recoil.

Your needs may be different, so define your needs, and you will get the answers you are looking for.

[jcools]

I would use this gun for hunting/target. As well IF I go out west I'd like to have a BIG bore side arm w/ me. Also I'd like to eventually like to do some cowboy shoots. That's why I'd like to get a rifle in the same Cal.One other? I have is of these two which has a longer effective range?

[johnwilliamson062]

460 SW...
Well, that is what I am buying for my Encore.
I plan to shoot mostly 45LC level loadings out of it, but I can always go there if I need to. I have read a lot of threads on this over the last few weeks. Here is what I have interpreted from the posts which seem reasonably knowledgeable and from some wise advisers I know from real life.

The 44 mag is the standard. It has more loadings available at your local shops, is available in many pistols and many carbines at a lower price than the 45LC or it's big brothers. It will do the job if you even get half way to doing yours in any situation that any of the guns will.

The 45LC will do it better, but, you pretty much have to reload or buy ammo online b/c as mentioned here, most of what you find locally is either cowboy loads or very pricey.

The 45LC can fire much heavier bullet. As you get downrange the velocity of both drops, but the mass of the bullet stays the same. As such those super heavy bullets supposedly do much better at long range. That seems to be the only significant practical ballistic advantage for hunting, and we are probably talking about outside 100yds when this come into play. Of course, I usually go the overkill route when hunting. I have only used "the minimum" once and was not happy with the results. Of course, 44 mag isn;t exactly the minimum.

If you buy your ammo online the prices are not much different, and on midway what I believed to be the best hunting load for each was exactly the same price(same manufacturer) and both were significantly cheaper than the sabotted slugs I have been hunting with.

I have a reloading set I have never gotten around to using(I bought it when no one could find components and put it away and it stayed there). Buying the 460 will push me to set it up and start reloading.

The deciding factor for me will be whether I can accept the lack of carbines available for the 460 or 454.

[Shotgun693]

Also I'd like to eventually like to do some cowboy shoots.

That will limit the type of guns you buy. Check with your local CAS club and see what's being used. You'll be limited to SA Rugers, Colt's and their clones,
plus the occasional S&W and Remington clone.
I've used .45 Colt and .44 Mag chambered guns for hunting. Either work ok on WT Deer sized game within 100 yards. In some guns, you could load the .45 hotter than usual for hunting.
In CAS, there are limits on velocity and bullet type. You can load as light or as hot as the limits allow. Lead bullets only.

[Deja vu]

If it was me I would go with the 45...

I believe that a hot loaded 44 and a hot loaded 45 are nearly the same but the 45 has a slight size advantage.

If it was me going for a rifle/pistol combination I would get a 45/70 rifle/BFR revolver combo for hunting and a 357 magnum rifle/pistol for plinking or CAS.

[feets]

When you're loading to the capacity of the gun and ignoring the SAAMI specs, both loads will run 50,000 CUP. Physics dictates that the larger diameter cartridge will do more work with equal pressure.
Pressure per square inch. If the pressure is the same, more inches wins.

For long range work, the larger diameter will scrub off speed quicker if it's the same weight as the smaller diameter.
If you make the bullets the same length, the larger diameter bullet will weigh more. That extra mass will carry it's velocity longer. That's called inertia. A body in motion tends to stay in motion. Adding mass is adding the tendency to stay in motion.

If you want to load your Ruger hot and beat it to death, you can do that with either caliber. However, the whole force equals mass times velocity thing means the larger diameter bullet is capable of more destruction.

[black mamba]

Loaded to their individual potentials, the .45 is slightly more powerful.

The same can be said of the .30-06 over the .308. BIG DEAL.

The point is you can't use one against anything you couldn't just as effectively use the other. With the same shot placement, no bear or anything else hit with the .45 is going down when it would not have gone down with the .44 mag.

Choose the one you like best and enjoy it! Eventually you'll have both anyway.

[GeauxTide]

Have both. Use both. The Linebaugh article is most excellent. I stick with 255-275gr cast bullets, from 1100-1200fps in the LC. The cases don't wear out. 240 jacketed in the 44Mag., from 1300-1500fps. My preference now is the 44 Special and the Long Colt with cast bullets.

[jcools]

Thanks guy's for all the responses. I guess I'll have to see what kind of deal I come across @ tax time. Cause I don't think I could go wrong either way.

[johnwilliamson062]

I am also looking at a "campanion" set, and it seems to me the 45 cal, not the 45 lc as much as the 454 or 460 really gains advantage there.

In a pistol it seems irrelevant. With just 45LC it seems irrelevant.

[Edward429451]

Well I just ordered the Ruger 45 Colt/ 45 ACP convertible 5.5" Blue from Buds.
I think I got the right one. Not only will it take any sane 255 gr load, it will shoot the 45 ACP also, and yes, I do happen to have a bag of virgin 45 Super brass also. I'm stoked!

[rclark]

Great! You'll enjoy the .45 Colt! And yes that one will go mild to wild. I prefer 'medium'. Plus you can shoot those pesky .45 Auto rounds too.

[jtmckinney]

I also bought a BH 45 Colt/45ACP convertible over the holidays. Only tried it with published loads so far using Unique and AA#9 with hard cast lead 230 grain RN. I like it a lot and can already tell this firearm is definately a keeper.

Will probably see mostly published loads but agree there is a lot of potential for the handloader.

I wish Ruger had mentioned that it has an internal lock. You have to go to the manual to find this out. The Hogue grips I like so well will not fit. I will forgive Ruger for this but I thought it should have been included in the features section of their website.

Have a great day!
James

[arentol]

What I like about .45 colt over .44 is:

.452 diameter instead of .43. Every little bit helps.
Retail it tops out at 360 grains vs 330 grains for .44 magnum. Again, every little bit helps.
Slightly cheaper, and much easier on the wrist, HSM target ammo readily available in my local stores and online.
Broader overall range of retail rounds, from ones that push as little as 220 ft/lbs all the way up to almost 1200 ft/lbs.

However these are all minor differences, and are just why I personally prefer .45 colt very slightly. At the end of the day they are actually surprisingly equal cartridges overall. For instance, here are the two most powerful rounds I can purchase at my local gun store for each of these calibers:

.45 colt = 360 grain Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast 1200fps -1151ft/lbs for about $1.10 per round.

.44 magnum = 320 grain Wide Flat Nose Hardcast 1325fps -1258ft/lbs for about $1.10 per round.

Either one of those will get the job done, and one will do it just as well as the other.

Honestly I consider it a complete toss up, go with whichever you can find a good gun for at a price you like first.

[Flyboy_451]

However, old Elmer tried the LFN and found it not as efficient.

Not to be critical, but Elmer did not use the LFN styl bullet. What he used was the RNFP (round nose flat point) which is very different. The LFN stye bullet did not exist at the time that Elmer was experimenting, but was later developed by Veral Smith, owner of LBT (Lead Bullet Technology).

Pictured below are a series of various .45 Colt bullets that I cast and use. From left to right, they are a Wide Long Nose (WLN), Long Flat Nose (LFN), Ogival Wadcutter (OGW), Round Nose Flat Point (RNFP) and a Keith Style Bullet.

[IMG][/IMG]





Notice that the RNFP and the LFN/WLN are vastly different in design, with the RNFP having a very small meplat. Notice also that the Keith style bullet and the LFN and WLN have meplats of very similar size. This is where the performance of these bullets originate.

The Keith is a great design and I have used it for a lot of years with success on a variety of game. The wound channel made by this bullet is similar in size to the LBT bullets, when driven at similar velocities, but the LBT bullets hold the weight advantage, and this is where the increase in penetration comes from. When hunting heavily boned and muscled critters, this additional weight gives a distinct advantage over the lighter Keith bullet. For smaller game such as deer, there is no real advantage to the LBT style bullets if driven at the same velocity as the Keith. The advantage comes from being able to drive the heavier bullets much slower and with less pressure to achieve the same results as with the Keith bullet. Generally speaking, I have found that heavier bullets driven at lower pressure are more pleasant to shoot than lighter bullets with greater pressure behind them. The Recoil impulse seems slower and more of a push than the sharp slap that a lighter bullet at high velocity delivers.

More velocity does not always equal more penetration. Keep in mind that resistance increases at the square of velocity. In other words, if you double the velocity, you quadruple the drag. This can be detrimental to penetration if the bullet is too light to have enough momentum to penetrate heavy muscle and bone. Velocity is constantly diminishing from the moment the bullet leaves the barrel until it comes to rest at some point. Bullet weight is constant (more or less).

For some great information on cast bullets, I highly recommend the book "Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets" by Veral Smith.

JW

[stevelyn]

I've had and shot both. I have a Redhawk in .45 Colt now as my all around dinkin' around Alaska utility and tent/sleeping bag gun. You can load it up to do what the .44 Mag does but with heavier boolits and lower pressures.

Right now my all business loads, are 335gr CPB that are running about 1200 out of a 4" barrel.

If Elmer Keith had something stronger than the Colt SAA when he started his experiments he would never have gone with the S&W and the .44 Mag as we know it would never have seen the light of day.

Cook up some recipes with Starline brass, heavy, hardcast boolits and H-110/W-296 and tread the earth without fear.

The Hodgdon manual has .45 Colt loads in the 30,000 psi range.


Here's a couple good reads on the subject.


http://www.customsixguns.com/writing...g_the_myth.htm

http://www.customsixguns.com/writing...ht_bullets.htm

[nate45]

Is that WLN in your pic a 325 grain .429-.430? If so I have that one.

Doesn't the sharp top edge of the driving band on the Keith type add to the effect of the large meplat?


.358 173 grain KT, .411 230 grain KT, .430 250 grain KT, .430 260 grain Keith/Thompson GC, .452 265 grain KT

The green lube are Leadhead's and the blue Beartooth. The 230 grain .411 came out of a mold that belonged to Elmer Keith.


.429 240 grain Gold Dot, .430 250 grain KT, .430 300 grain XTP, .430 325 grain WLN GC

I've got a several other styles and weights, but only had these pics handy. That 325 grain WLN are the heaviest pistol bullets I have. I really don't know that much about the 325 and have only shot a few, even though I have 500 of them.

I just assumed the sharp edged KT would cut better than the .325 WLN and I'm not shooting anything big. For hunting I mainly used to use the 240 grain XTP, but have switched to the 300 grain XTP.

I would like to get the 325 grain .452 KT that Dry Creek used to mold. I know NEI makes that mold, but even though I have a smelting pot and Lyman sizer/luber, I'd rather not have to mold them. Its so much easier to buy a 1000 from Leadhead, or Beartooth.

[Flyboy_451]

Nate,
The WFN is a 335grn .452 cast from wheel weights and water dropped for a hardness of about 21bhn. The mold is from LBT.

That has been the theory on he Keith bullet for many years. After doing some testing and a lot of reading, I am not convinced that is corret. When the bullet strikes soft tissue, it is my opinion that the meplat pushes the tissue outward at very high velocity. This outward "spray" actually increases the size of the wound channel by damaging and destroying the adjacent tissue. Have you ever placed your hand flat on the surface of calm water and the pushed down very quickly? You will notice that your hand actually pushes the water outward fast enough that a void is created that results in bubbles rising to the surface. Now imagine slapping the water with your hand. The water sprays outward at a pretty fast rate. Granted, flesh is not water, but it is made up of a high content of water. Because liquids are not compressible, the only thing it can do is move out of the way of the bullet when struck. It is my belief that the front driving band of a Keith style bullet never even touches any tissue.

I KNOW from experience that a LBT style bullet wih a .360" meplat, striking at around 1100fps will punch a hole that is roughly three quarters on an in in diameter all the way through deer size game. I am not saying that the Keith bullet does. Of perform well. It does! But, I think that the LBT style bullets with a larger meplat and heavier weights perform better, particularly as the animal gets larger.

JW

[nate45]

Thats very interesting. It could well be that the wide meplat is acting in that manner.

I'm going to have to try the WLN GC on some meat and see how it does. I think I'm going to order some of them for my .45s too.

[feets]

There has been some discussion of the driving bands of Keith style bullets actually being wiped away as they come into contact with flesh and bone.

A rounded off shoulder will do less damage.

Personally, I'm with Flyboy. The wide meplat is where the performance is found. I didn't get to try out the 270 gr Thunderhead (center bullet in the pic) yet but I'll give it a shot on some piggies just to see what happens.

[Pathfinder45]

......getting back to the 44 vs 45 discussion...... For most folks I recommend the 44 magnum as the better choice. Honestly, it's better suited to double-action revolvers. There are more available ammo options for those that don't reload and maintain ammo stocks. And you don't hear much about needing to ream 44 cylinder throats. If you run a poll and say a person for whatever reason has to choose one and only one forever; I expect you'll find that 2 out of 3 will choose 44 magnum. But for some of us that prefer single-actions and like to tinker and reload and such; well, the 45 Colt just scratches that itch so much better than any 44 ever can. Well, Maybe a 44WCF might come close. As far as down-range performance goes it's score six for the 44 vs score half-a-dozen for the 45 Colt. Kind of like comparing .270 vs .280.......uh, but this is the revolver forum. My buddy has 44's; I have 45's. His and mine go head to head regularly. Both cartridges have come a long way and benefited by the cast-bullet-Renaissance of the last 30 or so years. When I started reloading, (I can't believe it's been 39 years.....), plain lead bullets were widely regarded as cheap and obsolete and inferior substitutes for real bullets. If you wanted serious performance you just had to have jacketed bullets. We now know that this just isn't true. Thanks to Elmer Keith and some other cast bullet, "pioneers", the cast bullet is now considered a premium bullet in many 44 and 45 caliber factory loads.

Pathfinder; loading and casting 45 Colt since 1976. 270 Winchester a bit longer.

[ltc444]

I'm going by memory on this so bear with me.

Back in the earlly 70s I read an article, G&A I think, comparing reloadin the 44 mag and the 45 LC to similiar pressures and velocities for use in modern , Ruger Super Blackhawks.

Their conclusion was that it was possible.

Their concerns were

1) Older guns which cannot stand the higher pressures

2) At that time, 45LC cases were thinner than 44mag and not designed to withstand the higher pressures. I believe that the author experienced some 45 LC case failures at the high end of the experment.

3) The authors reminded the readers that the 44mag and 357 mag cases were lengthened to prevent them being used in the older pistols which were designed for lowere pressures.

You can load 38spl and 44spls to Magumn pressures and fire them in modern pistols of that caliber. 38+P is a prime example of this activity.

In the end it is what are you wanting to achieve.

[feets]

Why bring up the same old stuff from 40 years ago? Time marches on.

It should now be universal knowledge that:

1) modern guns are available that easily handle these pressures

2) old balloon head Colt cases were replaced with modern strong cases about the time that article was written.

3) 44 magnum and 357 magnum case length have no bearing on the capability of the 45 Colt.

[zxcvbob]

I've had catastrophic case failures in .357 Magnum and in .30 Carbine (both in revolvers.) It's no big deal. The balloon head brass thing is a false controversy, even if the stuff was still circulating.

[Flyboy_451]

For the shooter that does not reload, I think the .44 is a better choice, as there are more factory selections available at somewhat reasonable prices.

In the purest sense, the .45 is a more capable cartridge, but this is only in guns of appropriate design and strength. John Linebaugh has probably done more thorough testing than any other person that I can think of. His findings confirm what has already been stated in an earlier post. A larger bore diameter loaded to equal pressure will do more work than a smaller bore. The laws of physics tell us this is the case, but people still like to discuss and argue the topic. Below is an excerpt from an article by Mr. Linebaugh.


"The 250 gr. Hornady JHP in the .45 outran the 250 gr. Keith a bit and the pressures are about the same. So what? And the 315/318 gr. slugs are running practically identical velocities with the .44 only showing 4,000 more psi. So what? Now look at the pressure barrels for each caliber.

The .44 Magnum pressure barrel in the above test was 10" in length.

The .45 Colt pressure barrel in the above test was 5 1/2" in length."

The entire article can (and should! ) be read here

http://www.customsixguns.com/writing...ht_bullets.htm

I would strongly encourage anyone interested in big bore revolver performance read all of Mr. Linebaugh's writings. http://www.customsixguns.com/writings.htm

If you choose to pursue the performance potential of the .45 Colt, do a lot of research, use common sense and discover what this old workhorse can do. The .44 Magnum is a wonderful cartridge, that will do pretty much anything that most shooters require. There is nothing bad that I can say about the cartridge, but I still prefer the .45 Colt for broad range of roles that it can fill.

I love the .45, but I also own (and very much enjoy!)some .44s. and .357s, .41s, .475s and .500s. It's a sickness for which there is no cure...But I'm OK with that!

JW