Liberator - Page 2

SIGSHR · December 19, 2010, 06:16 PM

I think the Liberator was to WWII what the Pedersen Device was to WWII, an ingenious solution to a serious problem but a Great Idea That Didn't Work. Looked great in theory, and in the hands of a trained operator it worked, but....It did incorprate modern ideas of low cost stamped construction.
I have heard of the Deer Gun. Basically an official version of a zip gun. (Never seen a picture of one) IIRC for Vietnam there was also a 4 barreled 20 guage shotgun developed for civilian use, the "RF-PFs"-Regional Forces-Popular Forces". Basically it was a point and shoot weapon for villagers to defend themselves with. 20 gauge chosen in defernce to the smaller stature of those peoples. Don't think it was widely issued if at all.
While we're on the subject of OSS/SOE "brainstorms", how about "Operation
Habbakuk" ? Using "Pykrete" ?

James K · December 19, 2010, 08:56 PM

I was going to mention the Pedersen device but hesitated because so many folks think it was a great super invention that would have stopped WWI instantly. In fact, it would have gotten more thousands of Americans killed.

The idea (those ideas again!) was that the fast firing rifle would have caused the Germans to keep their heads down. No one realized that in order to make the enemy duck, he first has to know that he is being shot at. With the low velocity and almost silent PD (the crack is like that of a .22 rifle and would be totally lost in the normal battlefield noise), the Germans would have just sat behind their machineguns and mowed down the advancing Doughboys.

Jim

**44 AMP** · December 19, 2010, 09:13 PM

$599 for a repro Liberator? While it would be an interesting curio in my collection, I can think of lots and lots of more worthwhile things to spend $600 bucks on. Thanks, but no.

James K · December 19, 2010, 09:21 PM

And they don't shoot! The maker says that he is selling the gun with the firing pin hole not drilled and it is up to the owner whether to fix it so it will fire. Sounds to me like a legal copout. If the gun blows or comes apart, the maker can blame it on the owner who modified the "display" gun so it would fire.

Jim

SIGSHR · December 20, 2010, 10:00 PM

Also $599.00 for what is essentially a Government approved zip gun. It lloks like something you could build at home.

garyhan · December 21, 2010, 03:53 AM

I remember the first time I saw one of the originals. For many years I read of these guns and their rarity. It was thought that almost all of them had been destroyed. The month after they were removed from NFA status, I saw two of them for sale at gun shows. I have seen a number more since then. I suspect there are a lot of goodies out there we don't see because family souvenirs and heirlooms are legally perceived as a threat to society.

gary

gyvel · December 21, 2010, 05:46 AM

Small article about them in the January 2011 American Rifleman.

Rifleman1776 · December 21, 2010, 09:58 AM

Zip gun maybe. But it is the historical value that interests me. Thanks for all the informative and very interesting replies.

James K · December 21, 2010, 12:29 PM

The original Liberator was removed from NFA status at least before 1968, when I was told I did not need to register mine under the amnesty. The repro never was an NFA firearm because the barrel is rifled, aside from its being sold in an unfireable condition.

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · December 21, 2010, 01:15 PM

"But thanks to Mike and Jim, we have 2 different versions of the history, both are true, as per their own opinions."

Actually, both versions are true depending on WHEN you look at the project.

As I noted, the original concept of blanketing the countryside with the things never made it past first base (or even out of the batter's box) because it was recognized to be wasteful and ineffective, i.e., History Phase 1.

That's when it was decided it would be better if the guns were supplied directly to resistance cells in either packaged air drops or via landed aircraft. That's History Phase 2.

Then, finally, the entire program was turned over to OSS, who had no clue that the guns existed, and who didn't know what to do with them. History Phase 3.

Winchester_73 · December 21, 2010, 04:39 PM

My point exactly.

James K · December 21, 2010, 08:50 PM

Oddly enough, and in spite of some comments, those guns were made by very sophisiticated machinery and could never have been made that way in any ordinary basement or home workshop. They involve heavy duty stamping and blanking machines, welding machines and spot welders, equipment hardly available to the makers of traditional "zip guns." In fact they probably could only have been made that way by a maker of automobile parts like (surprise!) Guide Lamp Division of General Motors.

Had they been used the origin would never have been in much doubt; they practically scream "Made in USA."

I also question the statement that the OSS "had no clue that the guns existed". While some individual OSS agents may not have known of the guns, and OSS was not the originator of the concept, there was an OSS rep on the Joint Psychological Warfare Committee that developed production plans and sources. So OSS did "have a clue" about the Liberators and gave the pistol that name.

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · December 21, 2010, 09:56 PM

Everything I've ever read about the history of the Liberator has indicated in either direct, or indirect, terms that when the Liberators were officially turned over to OSS, Donovan and the rest of the high mucks in the organization A) didn't know to that point that they existed, and B) when they heard what they were originally conceived as, rolled their eyes and stuck them in storage.

I've no doubt that individuals in OSS knew that the gun/project existed, but given that it was primarily an Army conception, it's not at all surprising that the upper leadership of OSS didn't know about the program.

There were dozens, if hundreds (or more), of projects under way at any one time that had some form of OSS participation. It's pretty fanciful to think that every one of those projects would have been routinely briefed to OSS' upper leadership.

Given that the Liberator project officially kicked off in June 1942, or at exactly the same time that Donovan was thrust into the leadership position of a new organization that he had to get up and running in accordance with the plan that he presented to Roosevelt, I sort of thing he and his henchmen were busy with other things...

Once the Army showed up and said "Surprise, here's your 1 million weird assed guns," yeah, OSS leadership would notice.

FALacy · December 21, 2010, 11:50 PM

I want a liberator SO bad. Alas, I do not have $2,000 to spend on a stamped, unsafe-to-fire firearm.

Jbar4Ranch · December 22, 2010, 11:44 AM

There are currently 3 on gunbroker - one at $2000, one at $2250, and one at $3500. $2000 is about the average asking price, but I haven't seen one actually sell for that in quite some time, perhaps just the tough economic times we're in at the moment.
I still have the one I reported on in the link in the 2nd post. It's been a neat item to show off, but for the most part, it just sits in the safe and gathers dust.

SIGSHR · December 22, 2010, 05:38 PM

We could say the Liberator was a "mass produced" zip gun, it did utilize the most modern manufacturing techniques and showed economies of scale.
It would be interesting to know if there are any archival records regarding its design, adoption, and reasons why it was not used.

James K · December 22, 2010, 08:51 PM

I know of two books on the Liberator, and Mike may know of other sources of information. BTW, I don't believe either book is definitive or exhaustive on the subject; such a book, AFAIK, has yet to be written.

The two books are The FP_-45 Liberator Pistol 1941-1945 by R. W. Koch, and The Liberator Pistol by Ralph Hagan. I don't know if they are still in print.

Jim

December 19, 2010, 09:13 PM	#28
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	$599 for a repro Liberator? While it would be an interesting curio in my collection, I can think of lots and lots of more worthwhile things to spend $600 bucks on. Thanks, but no. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

December 21, 2010, 01:15 PM	#35
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"But thanks to Mike and Jim, we have 2 different versions of the history, both are true, as per their own opinions." Actually, both versions are true depending on WHEN you look at the project. As I noted, the original concept of blanketing the countryside with the things never made it past first base (or even out of the batter's box) because it was recognized to be wasteful and ineffective, i.e., History Phase 1. That's when it was decided it would be better if the guns were supplied directly to resistance cells in either packaged air drops or via landed aircraft. That's History Phase 2. Then, finally, the entire program was turned over to OSS, who had no clue that the guns existed, and who didn't know what to do with them. History Phase 3. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 21, 2010, 04:39 PM	#36
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	My point exactly. __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west

December 21, 2010, 08:50 PM	#37
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Oddly enough, and in spite of some comments, those guns were made by very sophisiticated machinery and could never have been made that way in any ordinary basement or home workshop. They involve heavy duty stamping and blanking machines, welding machines and spot welders, equipment hardly available to the makers of traditional "zip guns." In fact they probably could only have been made that way by a maker of automobile parts like (surprise!) Guide Lamp Division of General Motors. Had they been used the origin would never have been in much doubt; they practically scream "Made in USA." I also question the statement that the OSS "had no clue that the guns existed". While some individual OSS agents may not have known of the guns, and OSS was not the originator of the concept, there was an OSS rep on the Joint Psychological Warfare Committee that developed production plans and sources. So OSS did "have a clue" about the Liberators and gave the pistol that name. Jim Last edited by James K; December 21, 2010 at 09:03 PM.

December 21, 2010, 09:56 PM	#38
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Everything I've ever read about the history of the Liberator has indicated in either direct, or indirect, terms that when the Liberators were officially turned over to OSS, Donovan and the rest of the high mucks in the organization A) didn't know to that point that they existed, and B) when they heard what they were originally conceived as, rolled their eyes and stuck them in storage. I've no doubt that individuals in OSS knew that the gun/project existed, but given that it was primarily an Army conception, it's not at all surprising that the upper leadership of OSS didn't know about the program. There were dozens, if hundreds (or more), of projects under way at any one time that had some form of OSS participation. It's pretty fanciful to think that every one of those projects would have been routinely briefed to OSS' upper leadership. Given that the Liberator project officially kicked off in June 1942, or at exactly the same time that Donovan was thrust into the leadership position of a new organization that he had to get up and running in accordance with the plan that he presented to Roosevelt, I sort of thing he and his henchmen were busy with other things... Once the Army showed up and said "Surprise, here's your 1 million weird assed guns," yeah, OSS leadership would notice. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 19, 2010, 06:16 PM	#26
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	I think the Liberator was to WWII what the Pedersen Device was to WWII, an ingenious solution to a serious problem but a Great Idea That Didn't Work. Looked great in theory, and in the hands of a trained operator it worked, but....It did incorprate modern ideas of low cost stamped construction. I have heard of the Deer Gun. Basically an official version of a zip gun. (Never seen a picture of one) IIRC for Vietnam there was also a 4 barreled 20 guage shotgun developed for civilian use, the "RF-PFs"-Regional Forces-Popular Forces". Basically it was a point and shoot weapon for villagers to defend themselves with. 20 gauge chosen in defernce to the smaller stature of those peoples. Don't think it was widely issued if at all. While we're on the subject of OSS/SOE "brainstorms", how about "Operation Habbakuk" ? Using "Pykrete" ?

December 19, 2010, 08:56 PM	#27
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I was going to mention the Pedersen device but hesitated because so many folks think it was a great super invention that would have stopped WWI instantly. In fact, it would have gotten more thousands of Americans killed. The idea (those ideas again!) was that the fast firing rifle would have caused the Germans to keep their heads down. No one realized that in order to make the enemy duck, he first has to know that he is being shot at. With the low velocity and almost silent PD (the crack is like that of a .22 rifle and would be totally lost in the normal battlefield noise), the Germans would have just sat behind their machineguns and mowed down the advancing Doughboys. Jim

December 19, 2010, 09:21 PM	#29
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	And they don't shoot! The maker says that he is selling the gun with the firing pin hole not drilled and it is up to the owner whether to fix it so it will fire. Sounds to me like a legal copout. If the gun blows or comes apart, the maker can blame it on the owner who modified the "display" gun so it would fire. Jim

December 20, 2010, 10:00 PM	#30
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Also $599.00 for what is essentially a Government approved zip gun. It lloks like something you could build at home.

December 21, 2010, 03:53 AM	#31
garyhan Member Join Date: June 22, 2008 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 90	I remember the first time I saw one of the originals. For many years I read of these guns and their rarity. It was thought that almost all of them had been destroyed. The month after they were removed from NFA status, I saw two of them for sale at gun shows. I have seen a number more since then. I suspect there are a lot of goodies out there we don't see because family souvenirs and heirlooms are legally perceived as a threat to society. gary

December 21, 2010, 05:46 AM	#32
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Small article about them in the January 2011 American Rifleman.

December 21, 2010, 09:58 AM	#33
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	Zip gun maybe. But it is the historical value that interests me. Thanks for all the informative and very interesting replies.

December 21, 2010, 12:29 PM	#34
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The original Liberator was removed from NFA status at least before 1968, when I was told I did not need to register mine under the amnesty. The repro never was an NFA firearm because the barrel is rifled, aside from its being sold in an unfireable condition. Jim

December 21, 2010, 11:50 PM	#39
FALacy Junior member Join Date: August 17, 2009 Posts: 205	I want a liberator SO bad. Alas, I do not have $2,000 to spend on a stamped, unsafe-to-fire firearm.

December 22, 2010, 11:44 AM	#40
Jbar4Ranch Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Near Helena, Montana Posts: 1,719	There are currently 3 on gunbroker - one at $2000, one at $2250, and one at $3500. $2000 is about the average asking price, but I haven't seen one actually sell for that in quite some time, perhaps just the tough economic times we're in at the moment. I still have the one I reported on in the link in the 2nd post. It's been a neat item to show off, but for the most part, it just sits in the safe and gathers dust. __________________ Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced... SASS 47015

December 22, 2010, 05:38 PM	#41
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	We could say the Liberator was a "mass produced" zip gun, it did utilize the most modern manufacturing techniques and showed economies of scale. It would be interesting to know if there are any archival records regarding its design, adoption, and reasons why it was not used.

December 22, 2010, 08:51 PM	#42
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I know of two books on the Liberator, and Mike may know of other sources of information. BTW, I don't believe either book is definitive or exhaustive on the subject; such a book, AFAIK, has yet to be written. The two books are The FP_-45 Liberator Pistol 1941-1945 by R. W. Koch, and The Liberator Pistol by Ralph Hagan. I don't know if they are still in print. Jim