Couple questions 1858 vs 1860?

Stormson · May 24, 2014, 01:46 PM

Ive been thinking about trying to pick up an 1860 when I can afford one. Would like to make a multi-gun out of it. Meaning, since one can easily change out the entire barrel assembly, I would like to have more then one barrel.

I have a Remmi in 5.5". I really like that size.. Quick, handy and pretty much perfect for holster wear, IMO. So, this 1860 wont be for that.. I would like to have a very short belly gun barrel, and a longer one I can use with the shoulder stock for a quick carbine. An 8", or I even heard i could get a 12".

My questions are, first, how easy is it to change out the grips on an 1860? I really like those thunderer\birdhead ones for the belly gun. Have seen a number of 51's and a few 60's on the web with them, but of course, that cant be used with the shoulder stock. So is it just a quick couple minutes with a flathead the way it looks in the pix, or is changing the grip some sort of all day undertaking that will have me cussing Sam Cold for hours on end?

Second question... I regularly run 35grs of 777 through my Remmi, with a wad and .454 ball. I know the conventional wisdom is that one should try not to compress 777 very much, but with that short loading lever its hard not to, and at 35grs it gets packed in pretty deep... I havent tried, but I wouldnt be a bit surprised if I couldnt get 40grs in it even with the wad. So how does the 60 stack up to that? If I wanted to carry really hot loads when it was in belly gun mode, whats the MOST you guys think could be crammed into one?

If I can ever even afford to start this, it will PROBABLY be a Pietta, just because pennies count, if that makes any difference in capacity?

Edit to add; If I did this, it would absolutely be a steel frame.

Hawg · May 24, 2014, 03:17 PM

777 is 15% hotter than bp, at 35 grains you're already over 40 grains of bp. 40 grains of 777 is getting into Walker territory. I don't think I'd want to go that hot in a Colt or a Remington. Changing the grip frame isn't difficult.

Stormson · May 24, 2014, 05:33 PM

Yeah.. 35 is pretty stout to say the least... Got no intentions of running 40grs of 777 through it OR my Remmi.. Was just wondering, out of pure curiosity, how the two cylinders stacked up against one another? Times change.. Right now around here 777 is about all we can get, but tomorrow it could be some super low power Chinese crap or something... Just thought it would be a good idea to know what the upper limit of each was?

Cool about the grips.. It didnt look overly complicated, just wanted to ask to be on the safe side...

Doc Hoy · May 25, 2014, 05:57 AM

I envy you for the fact that you live in one of the most beautiful areas of the nation.

Quote:

I would like to have a very short belly gun barrel, and a longer one I can use with the shoulder stock for a quick carbine. An 8", or I even heard i could get a 12".

Be careful with this project and do a little reading and research. You may find that different barrels are not a perfect fit.

Quote:

How easy is it to change out the grips on an 1860? I really like those thunderer\birdhead ones for the belly gun.

I think you might find a thread on here about the swap. Do a search on the forum. (If I can find it after I hit the send button on this post, I'll take a look. If I can find it I will post the link.) The parts for the swap out are not cheap. Once the change is made you may find that the birdshead grip does not give you enough control over the big pistol. Not because of it's shape but because of it's size.

Quote:

I regularly run 35grs of 777 through my Remmi, with a wad and .454 ball. I know the conventional wisdom is that one should try not to compress 777 very much, but with that short loading lever its hard not to, and at 35grs it gets packed in pretty deep... I havent tried, but I wouldnt be a bit surprised if I couldnt get 40grs in it even with the wad.

As Hawg said, sounds like a heavy load. You may want to re-examine how your decide your powder load. I have a rule which I think is at least remotely applicable. "The more powder you use, the more emotion you get from the discharge."

If you value consistent accuracy, you may want to back off on the charge to about 22 to 25 gr of Triple 7 fffg. Move up on charge until the pistol/shooter/load system becomes unstable. (Accuracy declines)

Quote:

If I can ever even afford to start this, it will PROBABLY be a Pietta, just because pennies count, if that makes any difference in capacity?

Excellent place to start.

Quote:

If I did this, it would absolutely be a steel frame

Shooting those heavy load, it had better be a steel frame.

Doc Hoy · May 25, 2014, 06:07 AM

for "1860 birdshead grips" and came up with enough threads to give you a little more info on the conversion.

Duelist's video on the issue (one of the first threads to come up) will give you a heads up on performance of the pistol.

mec · May 25, 2014, 04:38 PM

You may be in luck with those bbls. The 60 army already has 8 inches out front

Hellgate · May 26, 2014, 10:29 PM

You have to be sure to stay with the same make of grips and barrels as the frame for your '60. An Uberti barrel or grips will not likely line up with a Pietta frame (although I never tried it).

Doc Hoy · May 27, 2014, 03:42 AM

He is right.

I have fit barrels of unknown origin onto frames and it almost always takes a bit of yutzing.

I go out looking for a barrel and simply can't find a direct replacement. Even barrels made by the same manufacturer but at a different time are not the same.

So I settle for what I can get. Remember....There are a lot of ASP and ASM revolvers out there and the parts are not made any longer. There are also vendors who will tell you they have ASP and ASM replacement parts but the really don't.

Then I try to put it together and find that, for example, The gap is way to wide. Or the depth of the arbor hole is too shallow. Maybe the distance between the locating pin holes is off. Or the lug is thicker than the frame.

This is stuff that is very difficult to do with an electric drill and a file.

If you are set on proceeding with this project, you have made a wise choice to use a Pietta and I would add, it should be a very recent one. Parts interchangeability is better.

gasmandave · May 27, 2014, 08:05 AM

I have a 51 with the short barrel and birds head grip its an Uberti I tried to put the barrel on a Pietra and it won't fit. Just FYI.

**4V50 Gary** · May 27, 2014, 08:14 AM

Considering the price of the guns and the efforts to fit A to B, I'd just get another one.

Doc Hoy · May 27, 2014, 09:18 AM

I am always in favor of buying another revolver.

That is true without regard to the rationale.

1. Want a different barrel length
2. Want a different caliber
3. Want a different model
4. Want a different manufacturer
5. Its your birthday
6. Its your wife's birthday
7. You turned over another thousand miles on your pickup.

noelf2 · May 27, 2014, 01:17 PM

8. Cabela's has a remarkable sale with free shipping.

Stormson · May 27, 2014, 05:10 PM

9. Because its Tuesday.. And Tuesday only comes around once a week!

Sorry its taken so long to get back guys... Its been one heck of a few days.

Yeah, I was already thinking to stay away from the ASP and ASM stuff due to the lack of parts. Now.. I would get an ASM if it where the whole gun itself, and I considered it something I could afford to loose if it broke, but for what Im thinking here, yeah Pietta of recent manufacture, or even an Uburti, if I won the lotto LOL.

I agree... I would love to have a thousand handguns if I could... Each one is special and unique and worth the time. Alas... Even poor boys look at me and say "Damn.. that guy sure is poor!" LOL. Thats one reason for the line of thinking that Im following here. Yes, extra barrels are expensive, but not nearly as bad as extra guns in terms of price. Also, the sheer weight involved. I actually use my sidearms and many times carry them with me for extended periods of time. I already have the Remmi for my side... But of course we cant always wear in all social situations.. Hence, the reassuring feel of a big metal wheel tucked away under my armpit or in my waistband. In these situations, the birdshead grip would be nice to have. In more "normal" situations, when holster wear is called for, the 3" with normal grips, tucked away in the same manner, makes for a nice back up piece.... And, as long as Im going this far anyway, if I happen to have a shoulder stock and and an 8 or 12 inch barrel stashed away in the backpack, well Im ready if the opportunity or need for a neat little carbine arises.. Basically the idea is to have all my bases covered, when Im not actually hunting per say, but when Im in a situation that it might just come up anyway, and for times that carrying an SKS, or even a holster rig isnt called for... Of course, if I did grab a 5.5" barrel as well, I could go even lighter by leaving the Remmi and the 3 incher at home.. Then I would have only one firearm for both holster and carbine... Shrugs.. Just seems like it would make for a really handy and really versatile system..

May 24, 2014, 01:46 PM	#1
Stormson Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2014 Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA. Posts: 193	Couple questions 1858 vs 1860? Ive been thinking about trying to pick up an 1860 when I can afford one. Would like to make a multi-gun out of it. Meaning, since one can easily change out the entire barrel assembly, I would like to have more then one barrel. I have a Remmi in 5.5". I really like that size.. Quick, handy and pretty much perfect for holster wear, IMO. So, this 1860 wont be for that.. I would like to have a very short belly gun barrel, and a longer one I can use with the shoulder stock for a quick carbine. An 8", or I even heard i could get a 12". My questions are, first, how easy is it to change out the grips on an 1860? I really like those thunderer\birdhead ones for the belly gun. Have seen a number of 51's and a few 60's on the web with them, but of course, that cant be used with the shoulder stock. So is it just a quick couple minutes with a flathead the way it looks in the pix, or is changing the grip some sort of all day undertaking that will have me cussing Sam Cold for hours on end? Second question... I regularly run 35grs of 777 through my Remmi, with a wad and .454 ball. I know the conventional wisdom is that one should try not to compress 777 very much, but with that short loading lever its hard not to, and at 35grs it gets packed in pretty deep... I havent tried, but I wouldnt be a bit surprised if I couldnt get 40grs in it even with the wad. So how does the 60 stack up to that? If I wanted to carry really hot loads when it was in belly gun mode, whats the MOST you guys think could be crammed into one? If I can ever even afford to start this, it will PROBABLY be a Pietta, just because pennies count, if that makes any difference in capacity? Edit to add; If I did this, it would absolutely be a steel frame. Last edited by Stormson; May 24, 2014 at 02:31 PM.

May 25, 2014, 06:07 AM	#5
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Just did a search on the BP Forum.... for "1860 birdshead grips" and came up with enough threads to give you a little more info on the conversion. Duelist's video on the issue (one of the first threads to come up) will give you a heads up on performance of the pistol. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 26, 2014, 10:29 PM	#7
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	You have to be sure to stay with the same make of grips and barrels as the frame for your '60. An Uberti barrel or grips will not likely line up with a Pietta frame (although I never tried it). __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

May 27, 2014, 03:42 AM	#8
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Read Hellgate above... He is right. I have fit barrels of unknown origin onto frames and it almost always takes a bit of yutzing. I go out looking for a barrel and simply can't find a direct replacement. Even barrels made by the same manufacturer but at a different time are not the same. So I settle for what I can get. Remember....There are a lot of ASP and ASM revolvers out there and the parts are not made any longer. There are also vendors who will tell you they have ASP and ASM replacement parts but the really don't. Then I try to put it together and find that, for example, The gap is way to wide. Or the depth of the arbor hole is too shallow. Maybe the distance between the locating pin holes is off. Or the lug is thicker than the frame. This is stuff that is very difficult to do with an electric drill and a file. If you are set on proceeding with this project, you have made a wise choice to use a Pietta and I would add, it should be a very recent one. Parts interchangeability is better. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 27, 2014, 08:14 AM	#10
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,843	Considering the price of the guns and the efforts to fit A to B, I'd just get another one. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

May 24, 2014, 03:17 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	777 is 15% hotter than bp, at 35 grains you're already over 40 grains of bp. 40 grains of 777 is getting into Walker territory. I don't think I'd want to go that hot in a Colt or a Remington. Changing the grip frame isn't difficult.

May 24, 2014, 05:33 PM	#3
Stormson Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2014 Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA. Posts: 193	Yeah.. 35 is pretty stout to say the least... Got no intentions of running 40grs of 777 through it OR my Remmi.. Was just wondering, out of pure curiosity, how the two cylinders stacked up against one another? Times change.. Right now around here 777 is about all we can get, but tomorrow it could be some super low power Chinese crap or something... Just thought it would be a good idea to know what the upper limit of each was? Cool about the grips.. It didnt look overly complicated, just wanted to ask to be on the safe side...

May 25, 2014, 04:38 PM	#6
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	You may be in luck with those bbls. The 60 army already has 8 inches out front

May 27, 2014, 08:05 AM	#9
gasmandave Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2012 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 223	I have a 51 with the short barrel and birds head grip its an Uberti I tried to put the barrel on a Pietra and it won't fit. Just FYI.

May 27, 2014, 09:18 AM	#11
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Gary plus one I am always in favor of buying another revolver. That is true without regard to the rationale. 1. Want a different barrel length 2. Want a different caliber 3. Want a different model 4. Want a different manufacturer 5. Its your birthday 6. Its your wife's birthday 7. You turned over another thousand miles on your pickup. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 27, 2014, 01:17 PM	#12
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	8. Cabela's has a remarkable sale with free shipping. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

May 27, 2014, 05:10 PM	#13
Stormson Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2014 Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA. Posts: 193	9. Because its Tuesday.. And Tuesday only comes around once a week! Sorry its taken so long to get back guys... Its been one heck of a few days. Yeah, I was already thinking to stay away from the ASP and ASM stuff due to the lack of parts. Now.. I would get an ASM if it where the whole gun itself, and I considered it something I could afford to loose if it broke, but for what Im thinking here, yeah Pietta of recent manufacture, or even an Uburti, if I won the lotto LOL. I agree... I would love to have a thousand handguns if I could... Each one is special and unique and worth the time. Alas... Even poor boys look at me and say "Damn.. that guy sure is poor!" LOL. Thats one reason for the line of thinking that Im following here. Yes, extra barrels are expensive, but not nearly as bad as extra guns in terms of price. Also, the sheer weight involved. I actually use my sidearms and many times carry them with me for extended periods of time. I already have the Remmi for my side... But of course we cant always wear in all social situations.. Hence, the reassuring feel of a big metal wheel tucked away under my armpit or in my waistband. In these situations, the birdshead grip would be nice to have. In more "normal" situations, when holster wear is called for, the 3" with normal grips, tucked away in the same manner, makes for a nice back up piece.... And, as long as Im going this far anyway, if I happen to have a shoulder stock and and an 8 or 12 inch barrel stashed away in the backpack, well Im ready if the opportunity or need for a neat little carbine arises.. Basically the idea is to have all my bases covered, when Im not actually hunting per say, but when Im in a situation that it might just come up anyway, and for times that carrying an SKS, or even a holster rig isnt called for... Of course, if I did grab a 5.5" barrel as well, I could go even lighter by leaving the Remmi and the 3 incher at home.. Then I would have only one firearm for both holster and carbine... Shrugs.. Just seems like it would make for a really handy and really versatile system..