what exactly did the confederates copy?

bushmaster65 · June 8, 2014, 06:18 PM

been doing some reading lately on the net and it looks like the confederates made brass framed copies of the 1851 navy and then the dragoon copies with out the recoil shield.
I want to have an example in my collection of the C&B's from both sides starting with the walker.
I see brass frame replicas for just about everything from 1851 onward in both calibers but I know that some of these were not types produced by the confederates.

So any of you CW aficionados feel up to compiling a list starting with the walker, for steel and brass framed pistols and sub models produced?

Hawg · June 8, 2014, 06:40 PM

I may miss a few but I'm sure someone will add them. First of all no brass frame was ever offered in .44 caliber.

C.S. produced.

Schneider & Glassick, brass frame direct copy of the 51 navy but only three are known to exist and one of those has an iron frame.

Dance Bros., Dragoon copy with no recoil shield, also came in .36

Griswold & Gunnison. Round barrel, brass frame copy of the .51 navy. .36 caliber

Leech & Rigdon, steel frame, round barrel copy of the 51 navy in .36 caliber

Tucker & Sherrard, steel frame Dragoon copy. .44 caliber.

Augusta Machine Works, steel frame copy of the 51, some with 12 cylinder stops. .36 caliber

Columbus Firearms mfg co, steel frame, round barrel 51 .36 caliber

Spiller & Burr, brass frame copy of the Whitney. .36 caliber.

The U.S. used a lot of guns for which no repros exist and both sides bought guns from Europe.

bushmaster65 · June 8, 2014, 07:24 PM

So all the brass framed 1858's, 60 army's and 61 navy's were not produced and are made today because they look nice?...

So the Dance Bros. was offered only in .36?
The repros are .44 aren't they?

Well this will get me started Hawg thanks.
One more thing...the confederates never copied the rolled engraving
on their cylinders, correct?

gyvel · June 8, 2014, 07:38 PM

Quote:

So all the brass framed 1858's, 60 army's and 61 navy's were not produced and are made today because they look nice?...

LOL!! They're made because brass is quick and easy to cast.

James K · June 8, 2014, 08:29 PM

The original Confederate makers used brass because iron was harder to obtain and harder to cast and machine. They faced many problems - shortages of materials, poor and worn machinery and tools, untrained and often recalcitrant workers (slaves), and advancing enemy armies. Then too, the makers themselves were often people who had no real knowledge of gun making, wanting only to become rich at the expense of the new country.

But today, brass is used in repros because it has become associated with C.S. guns and no self-respecting "rebel" would be caught without his brass framed revolver. And brass polishes up real shiny.

Jim

dgerwin11 · June 8, 2014, 09:01 PM

Also the 1851 Colt Navy was originally made in .36 caliber. The .44 replicas (I own one) are not historically accurate.

Jim Watson · June 8, 2014, 09:35 PM

Quote:

So the Dance Bros. was offered only in .36?
The repros are .44 aren't they?

J.H. Dance made both, more .44 than .36.

Fingers McGee · June 8, 2014, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawg Haggen

Augusta Machine Works, steel frame copy of the 51, some with 12 cylinder stops. .36 caliber

Augusta model was the follow on to the L&R and had the same dragoon barrel.

Don't forget the Cofer revolver. .36 Caliber brass framed spur trigger revolver that looked a little like the Whitney. Supposedly about 100 of them made.
http://gunslingersgulch.com/index.php?topic=1547.0 They also made a cartridge revolver.

Hawg · June 9, 2014, 04:21 AM

Quote:

So the Dance Bros. was offered only in .36?
The repros are .44 aren't they?

Well this will get me started Hawg thanks.
One more thing...the confederates never copied the rolled engraving
on their cylinders, correct?

Yes the Dance was made in .44, I didn't specifically say that but I said it also came in .36

No the Confederates didn't copy the engraving.

The brass used then was what was called red brass or gunmetal which was a bronze alloy.

Doc Hoy · June 9, 2014, 06:15 AM

Creates a conundrum for the present day shooter in some minor ways.

The proliferation of brass frame "copies" available since the mid sixties or there abouts, seems to be a response to the sentiments of the twentieth century market.

I would not be surprised to learn that there is a high number of owners who really have no interest in black powder shooting but they bought one of the recent brass frame offerings because they are, a) cheap and b) pretty to look at.

jaxenro · June 9, 2014, 01:38 PM

I don't think iron was in short supply brass/bronze was. When the Rebs ran out of brass for cannon barrels they switched to iron. Heck one or two train rails probably had more iron them than all the brass frames put together. Think about the ironclads they made iron wasn't as hard to come by but brass could be cast for the frame and was easier to machine for novice gunmakers

Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret · June 9, 2014, 02:11 PM

I got the brass .44 1851 because I am cheap. But now I go only with black powder hand guns. No auto loaders. I still have the brass frame but I only shoot the case-hardened frame.

June 8, 2014, 06:18 PM	#1
bushmaster65 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 140	what exactly did the confederates copy? been doing some reading lately on the net and it looks like the confederates made brass framed copies of the 1851 navy and then the dragoon copies with out the recoil shield. I want to have an example in my collection of the C&B's from both sides starting with the walker. I see brass frame replicas for just about everything from 1851 onward in both calibers but I know that some of these were not types produced by the confederates. So any of you CW aficionados feel up to compiling a list starting with the walker, for steel and brass framed pistols and sub models produced? __________________ "Why Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave."

June 8, 2014, 06:40 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	I may miss a few but I'm sure someone will add them. First of all no brass frame was ever offered in .44 caliber. C.S. produced. Schneider & Glassick, brass frame direct copy of the 51 navy but only three are known to exist and one of those has an iron frame. Dance Bros., Dragoon copy with no recoil shield, also came in .36 Griswold & Gunnison. Round barrel, brass frame copy of the .51 navy. .36 caliber Leech & Rigdon, steel frame, round barrel copy of the 51 navy in .36 caliber Tucker & Sherrard, steel frame Dragoon copy. .44 caliber. Augusta Machine Works, steel frame copy of the 51, some with 12 cylinder stops. .36 caliber Columbus Firearms mfg co, steel frame, round barrel 51 .36 caliber Spiller & Burr, brass frame copy of the Whitney. .36 caliber. The U.S. used a lot of guns for which no repros exist and both sides bought guns from Europe. Last edited by Hawg; June 8, 2014 at 06:45 PM.

June 8, 2014, 07:24 PM	#3
bushmaster65 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 140	just as I thought... So all the brass framed 1858's, 60 army's and 61 navy's were not produced and are made today because they look nice?... So the Dance Bros. was offered only in .36? The repros are .44 aren't they? Well this will get me started Hawg thanks. One more thing...the confederates never copied the rolled engraving on their cylinders, correct? __________________ "Why Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave."

June 9, 2014, 06:15 AM	#10
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Interesting series of posts... Creates a conundrum for the present day shooter in some minor ways. The proliferation of brass frame "copies" available since the mid sixties or there abouts, seems to be a response to the sentiments of the twentieth century market. I would not be surprised to learn that there is a high number of owners who really have no interest in black powder shooting but they bought one of the recent brass frame offerings because they are, a) cheap and b) pretty to look at. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

June 9, 2014, 02:11 PM	#12
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2012 Location: Oh, Jesus. Posts: 226	What does me being pretty have to do with it? I got the brass .44 1851 because I am cheap. But now I go only with black powder hand guns. No auto loaders. I still have the brass frame but I only shoot the case-hardened frame.

June 8, 2014, 08:29 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The original Confederate makers used brass because iron was harder to obtain and harder to cast and machine. They faced many problems - shortages of materials, poor and worn machinery and tools, untrained and often recalcitrant workers (slaves), and advancing enemy armies. Then too, the makers themselves were often people who had no real knowledge of gun making, wanting only to become rich at the expense of the new country. But today, brass is used in repros because it has become associated with C.S. guns and no self-respecting "rebel" would be caught without his brass framed revolver. And brass polishes up real shiny. Jim

June 8, 2014, 09:01 PM	#6
dgerwin11 Member Join Date: April 6, 2014 Posts: 42	Also the 1851 Colt Navy was originally made in .36 caliber. The .44 replicas (I own one) are not historically accurate.

June 9, 2014, 01:38 PM	#11
jaxenro Junior Member Join Date: February 23, 2014 Posts: 9	I don't think iron was in short supply brass/bronze was. When the Rebs ran out of brass for cannon barrels they switched to iron. Heck one or two train rails probably had more iron them than all the brass frames put together. Think about the ironclads they made iron wasn't as hard to come by but brass could be cast for the frame and was easier to machine for novice gunmakers