Switching from Fed Brass to Lake City question

[Rangerrich99]

Title pretty much says it. I'm planning on switching from Fed brass to LC this year, so from .223 rem to 5.56 NATO brass. This is in regard to my varmint load, just because I have a lot more LC brass than anything else. All other variables being equal, should I expect any change in the performance/accuracy of my loads?

In case we need the parameters:

Bullet: Nosler 60 gr. ballistic tip boat tail
Primer: CCI no. 41
Powder: 23.3 gr. IMR 8208 XBR

Current loads deliver 5-shot groups just under an inch at 200 yds. Is it likely that just by switching to LC brass, that accuracy or performance could suffer in any way?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

[Mike1]

I may be wrong, but I thought Federal was making all the brass. It's supposed to be exactly the same except for the different headstamp of FC or LC.

[Metal god]

Not all Fed brass is equal . Fed American eagle ( AE ) is different then Fed gold medal match ( GMM ) and so is there LC stuff . The AE I have found to be inconsistent with off center flash holes . The GMM is much closer to match quality brass and is much more consistent then AE . Although I'm not 100% on this I can't see Fed making there LC cases the same as there GMM cases . So I'd think it would fall in between the two .

First thing I'd do is conduct water volume test to compare the two . They'll likely be pretty close but the 223 is a small case so as little as .5gr difference in water volume could make a difference . Maybe not enough to be dangerous but could effect group size . Either way I'd just drop your current charge down a bit and work back up with the new brass .

[Jimro]

Current loads deliver 5-shot groups just under an inch at 200 yds. Is it likely that just by switching to LC brass, that accuracy or performance could suffer in any way?

Short answer, yes. Longer answer, do the load workup again to see where the powder charge weight for best accuracy comes in.

Jimro

[Unclenick]

Also depends on the year. In 2012 when ATK was converting Lake City over to SAAMI type standards it put out a call for new case designs in 5.56 and 7.62 to cut ammo weight by 10%. I've heard of some frustrations with the newer brass being less tough than the old in 7.62. I don't know if that's because of a weight change or because of less hard commercial brass being accepted now. I haven't heard of a weight change in 5.56 yet. The whole ATK focus in 2012, according to board member Jeephammer, who visited the plant, was to make sure outside commercial ammo suppliers could meet the new military specs in a replenishment of stockpiles or to help meet shooting war demand.

The bottom line is pre-2012 and earlier brass may be different from later brass. I don't know when the first new designs were produced or even if they have been completely accepted at this point. It's just something to watch for.

[F. Guffey]

Rangerrich99, I could say something like: "If I had 3,000 LC cases and 3,000 FC cases with a few thousand Winchester cases sorted and separated into new, once fired and once fired/sized and primed I would load a few hundred of each and then head to the range".

All of my 223 cases are at least 10 years old. When comparing or testing a build I load 10 round for each group and I load at least 12 groups in an effort to find something the rifle likes. My groups move but I do not have flyers, If I load 20 rounds per box I zero the rifle with one round. I use different bullets, powder and cases, after tumbling it makes sorting the case easier, after tumbling I sort the cases by head stamps.

Weight of the case?: The last chance I have to prevent rendering a rifle scrap is just before I pull the trigger. So I sort cases by weight. I know the weight of the bullet, powder and case; when finished I know what the loaded round should be.

F. Guffey

[T. O'Heir]

"...thought Federal was..." Federal just runs the plant. They had nothing to do with the actual alloy used.
CCI No. 41's are just magnum primers. IMR 8208XBR doesn't need magnum primers. Magnum primers are about the powder used and nothing else.
It's highly unlikely you'll see any difference by just changing the case.
23.3 of IMR 8208XBR is .3 below max so working up the load again might be a good idea. I'd be inclined to shoot some as is though. Pressures might change a bit, but not enough to hurt anything.

[Rangerrich99]

Thank you for all your replies. I knew that federal owned the lake city brass plant but the two side-by-side don't look very much alike so that was part of the reason I asked. Also I've heard more than once that lake city brass is harder than federal or FC brass.

However, after the initial replies I thought about it, and I've pretty much decided that I'm gonna do a short workout up with the Lake City brass just to be on the safe side.

And I didn't know or maybe I forgot that CCI's no. 41 primers were magnums. I'm pretty sure I was told by someone that I was supposed to be using 41s but if I don't have to though probably save me a few bucks in the long run, so thanks for the info. I'll try the 400s on my work up and see how those work out.

[Jimro]

CCI41s are "milspec" in that they have to be able to light off ball powder reliably and not go "boom" when a free floating firing pin impacts them on loading.

Standard CCI 450 small rifle magnum primers don't have to go through the tests for firing pin sensitivity for military acceptance, although their sensitivity specifications may be similar enough not to matter, Unclenick might know as I seem to recall he had a good post on primer sensitivity...

Either primer seems to do fine in AR-15s, if your rifle isn't an AR-15, then even a CCI 400 should be just fine for you, but with 1/2 MOA groups at 200, I'd not change primers.

Jimro

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

"...thought Federal was..." Federal just runs the plant. They had nothing to do with the actual alloy used.

Not quite correct. ATK owned Federal and they had the contract to run Lake City. Since then they split off into two companies, Orbital ATK and Vista Outdoors. Vista Outdoors now owns Federal and Speer and CCI and Alliant, while Orbital ATK runs Lake City.

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

CCI No. 41's are just magnum primers.

Not quite correct. CCI told me over the phone that the No. 41 has a different anvil than the No. 450 Magnum primer. They have the same cup and the same quantity of the same type priming mix. The No. 41's anvil has shorter and wider angled legs to reduce the sensitivity to meet government H-test requirements for 5.56 NATO cartridges for military type floating firing pin self-loaders, as shown at the end of the page of government primer sensitivity specs below. The number 450 is more sensitive.

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

IMR 8208XBR doesn't need magnum primers. Magnum primers are about the powder used and nothing else.

This is not correct. Magnum primers were designed for magnum cases, as the name implies. If it was just for powder type, the name would reflect that. Magnum primers make a larger volume of primer gas than standard primers do. This is to achieve high enough start pressure after the gas fills the space between the powder grains of the larger magnum cases full of powder, or else to be used in smaller cases with a low loading density powder charge that fills the case poorly, so as to get adequate start pressure in the empty part of the space not filled with powder.

In 1989 CCI changed the way they formulated their magnum primers, adding more aluminum dust and barium nitrate to make a larger shower of hotter sparks. These are needed to get more consistent ignition with the St. Marks type spherical powders with their heavy deterrent coatings. Before 1989 we had magnum primers, but they made much less difference igniting those powders. Since then, other domestic makers of magnum primers have followed suit, making their shower of hot sparks greater. But foreign magnum primers have not all gone along with this and some do no better with these powders than the pre-1989 domestic magnum primers did.

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

It's highly unlikely you'll see any difference by just changing the case.
23.3 of IMR 8208XBR is .3 below max so working up the load again might be a good idea. I'd be inclined to shoot some as is though. Pressures might change a bit, but not enough to hurt anything.

This part is correct. .223 and 5.56 commercial and military cases have no significant capacity difference except in a couple of obscure instances. With domestic brands you won't see any change. Scroll down to see the capacity tables here.

[Rangerrich99]

Thanks Unclenick;

That is a lot of great info, even if I don't understand some of it. Guess I'm going to be doing a little research in the near future. But at least I know that the cases should perform about the same, as long as all other factors remain unchanged.

[JeepHammer]

Unclenick is 99%.
Olin/Winchester left the plant with WWII technology in place when ATK took over and ATK is an aerospace company...

When updating the hardware ATK wanted to 'Standardize' with SAAMI/Civilan market since they were updating Federal plants at the same time (more or less).

ATK 'Sold' civilian SAAMI standards to the government under the guise of 'Weight Reduction', something the government has mandated anyway...
AND,
The new equipment will load 'Lead Free' that is coming up, another government mandate.

Don't believe the Milbrass will have the same finish as civilian brass, there is about zero time spent on 'shinny' or 'pretty'...
Actual Milbrass is harder, it's simply not annealed like civilian brass after forming the base case, only the neck is annealed so the shoulder/neck can be formed.

Civilian cases are formed, annealed to 'Dead Soft', while military brass case sides/bottoms are 'Half Hard', the neck gets annealed for the shoulder/neck forming and that's it...

The military believes leaving the extractor rim & lower case sides hard reduces chambering & extraction issues... and to them, brass is 'Single Use'...
Hard lower, unsupported lower chamber in machine guns & the popularity of Milbrass is why you see so many 'Small Base' die offerings...
People trying to beat that lower case bloat back in enough to use the brass in a properly sized chamber.

That bloat, and what machine guns do to extraction rims is why I use a Case Pro case roller to get the brass back to SAAMI specification so everyone can shoot it without issues.
Most people whip the brass to fit THEIR firearms, can't stop there when doing for all chambers...

What you gain in Milbrass is top quality base alloy!
Milbrass base stock is 100% every time or it doesn't get used.
It's 100% predictable, annealing will work the same on every brass, the dies will work the same on every brass (once annealed to a common 'Hardness' starting point), it's VERY easy to do production of brass with very little vairation in tolerance.