October 21, 2009, 10:18 AM | #26 | |||
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October 21, 2009, 01:11 PM | #27 | |
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However, I have great faith in America to right the pendulum with the ballot box. |
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October 21, 2009, 01:14 PM | #28 |
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We seem to be wandering into current politics and views of the administration. Not really the charge of L and CR. So, can we keep away from that? Or we will start a debate about the validity of wacky claims from the fringes of the left and right - and then a closure.
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October 21, 2009, 01:41 PM | #29 | ||
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Bingo. I am retired Army. If I were on active duty and was asked to sign their "oath" someone would get a good old fashioned cursing. These guys fail to realize that if their guns are ever taken they will be taken by the cop that they work out with at the gym and that nice deputy who lives across the street. There have been a dramatic resurgence of far out groups in just the past year. On some sites there are people calling for armed rebellion. Threats against the POTUS are up 400 percent in one year. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts950 Quote:
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October 21, 2009, 01:48 PM | #30 | |||
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Groups like Oath Keepers don't help us because they say you can't work within the system to fix the problems. I don't disagree that states like CA who pass these absurd gun control bills are silly, but I believe a lot of those problems can be fixed by our system which is the best in the world. Oath Keepers are telling you these issues can't be addressed unless you disobey orders or worse. BTW, fear exploits people it never helps them. Quote:
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October 21, 2009, 02:05 PM | #31 | |
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October 21, 2009, 02:14 PM | #32 | |
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That would be like someone comng up to me before a deployment saying "Please remember the Law of War and don't intentionally shoot any innocent civilians." That would really tick me off. By the fact that these kooky Oath Keepers are even posing these kooky orders we won't obey they are introducing a problem into the dialog that isn't even there. Sort of like the "When did you stop beating your wife?". Blockades and concentration camps! What a bunch of hooey!!!!
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"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; October 21, 2009 at 04:10 PM. Reason: spelling |
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October 21, 2009, 03:43 PM | #33 | |
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All it would take is one incident by a few nutcases to turn the US population against all gun owners. I am more concerned about a serious incident by one of these wacky groups than I am about an attack by al Queda. It has become fashionable for folks to listen to the railings of G. Gordon Liddy, convicted Watergate felon. Liddy bragged that he had planned to murder columnist Jack Anderson. http://www.wnd.com/ http://www.rense.com/general17/statebystate.htm Last edited by thallub; October 21, 2009 at 03:54 PM. |
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October 21, 2009, 06:51 PM | #34 | ||
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If things were to turn into Airstrip One and such orders were given, these men would not follow them. Oaths aside, they're got families and communities to consider. So, what force would be left for the government to enforce tyrannical laws? Perhaps a few ill-intenioned mercenaries, but there aren't enough sociopaths to man that sort of army very well.
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October 21, 2009, 09:11 PM | #35 |
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Thanks, mods for keeping this thread open. It is interesting to see some honest, passionate debate going on from both sides of the issue. I will ask both sides of the argument one fundamental question; Have we not seen the erosion of our fundamental rights as citizens of the US over the past decade? How soon will we see this erode into the loss of our RKBA? I am aiming to keep this thread focused on the primary issue as far as this forum is concerned. To those of you who have vehemently smeared the organization mentioned, I would suggest you seriously study your history. Concentrate on the writings of Jefferson as he best represents the intentions and desires of the founding fathers who sought to create a government that stood for the people. To think that such things as mentioned in the 10 points of Oath Keepers cannot happen here is at best naive and contains a certain element of arrogance, as though the US is somehow immune from human nature that has reared its head throughout history.
To those otherwise disposed, I would urge you to work within the system to elect those who best represent the views you wish expressed. I will admit with all candor that the government that exists today has strayed far from the original intent of the founding fathers. This cannot be laid completely at the feet of any one political party, and all must accept part of the blame that has led us here to this point. I also urge you not to be swayed by emotion and unsubstiantiated rumor, but to strive for the truth, and to use that as the basis of your reasoning. I would urge all to refrain from needless name-calling and to focus on the issues at hand. Our great country is at a crossroad. It should be with the greatest sobriety and self searching that we arrive at the direction which we take from this moment forward. In closing I will say that the RKBA is the greatest right we have in this country, as it underpins every other freedom we have. It is, to paraphrase Jefferson, the ultimate of all checks and balances written within the framework of the Constitution. It is not to be used lightly. I will remind you all that the ultimate price of freedom is paid in blood, and always will be. |
October 21, 2009, 09:51 PM | #36 | |||||
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A Couple of Observations
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The irony of this all is that these kooky militia type organizations are a greater danger to our liberty and freedom than some liberal politician we don't like. We can vote out the politician, not so the kooky militia.
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October 21, 2009, 11:16 PM | #37 | |
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I don't see how lining up and chanting an oath will help that. And therein lies the problem: too many grand gestures and too little doing anything. Instead of waving our fists and shouting slogans, perhaps we should focus on keeping in touch with legislators and converting people to the cause. The op-ed pages are still open for submissions. How about cancelling that plane ticket to the next tea party and granting the money to a pro-2A (or any civil rights) organization? In case nobody's noticed, we won a major victory in the judicial branch last year, and we stand to win an even larger one next year. Concealed carry has spread throughout the Union like wildfire, and even with the control of two branches of government, those who would further infringe upon our rights are surprisingly silent. This is certainly no time to rest on our laurels, but neither is it cause to run around in fatigues screaming "OMG end of the Repulb1c!" That just tends to frighten people on the fence. And the people on the fence are the ones we need to be reaching.
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October 21, 2009, 11:36 PM | #38 | |
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I'm curious as to how the association of police & military personnel, with Oath Keepers, will somehow be seen as associated with the 2A movement at large?
And a final point....the 'oath' referred to by this organization is not some swearing of allegiance to a fringe militia organization. It is to an oath already sworn. Quote:
But only a little perplexed. The notion of that some folks actually consider themselves competent to read and understand the Constitution, without the oversight of government, just scares the britches off of some folks and there appears to be no known cure for that.
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October 22, 2009, 12:09 AM | #39 |
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The problem Sarge, is that people have a very, very short memory.
[sarcasm] What happened in NO, after Katrina was an aberration and will never, ever happen again. Right? We should all keep telling ourselves this.... [/sarcasm] |
October 22, 2009, 12:18 AM | #40 |
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...and if 10% of those officers had the stones to tell their handlers that Nagin was not God, and could not neuter the Constitution with an administrative order- the NO gun confiscations might never have happened.
All the more important to nurture the concept of individual freedom in their minds BEFORE the event, rather than after. Thanks Al.
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October 22, 2009, 02:17 AM | #41 | |||
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thallub, the irony is that Rense is/was also popular with some of the conspiraloons on the left when it was Bush's name attached to the "concentration camps" and all that jazz. It really is true that if you go far enough off either end of the political stage you end up in the same place. Quote:
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October 22, 2009, 05:19 AM | #42 | |||
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October 22, 2009, 07:37 AM | #43 |
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You know, Nnobby45 provided a link to the Oath Keepers back in March and I read their stuff then. For the life of me, I cannot see a reason to be a part of such an organization.
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October 22, 2009, 09:33 AM | #44 | |||
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I have pretty much decided against joining but I don't disparage them either. |
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October 22, 2009, 10:01 AM | #45 | |||
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"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
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October 22, 2009, 10:30 AM | #46 |
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History teaches that all Republics and Democracies eventually fail and turn into a dictatorship. The most famous is the Roman Empire.
The ten orders that the Oath Keepers would not obey all deal with constitutional issues such as the freedom of speech (1st Amendment), the right of the people to bear arms (the 2nd Amendment), right to a trial by jury (6th Amendment), unreasonable search and seizure (4th Amendment) and so on. Many people hold that all welfare payments including corporate welfare is unconstitutional, but the Supreme Court of the U. S. will not grant standing to any citizen to contest the issue before the Supremes. They has written that it is a political question that must be left to the legislative branch; which contains the people who most benefit from the vote buying scheme.
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October 22, 2009, 11:14 AM | #47 | ||
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October 22, 2009, 11:52 AM | #48 | |
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Nagin did issue the order. His Chief of police did carry out the order. That order was communicated to all other LEO's and National Guard. Laws were already in place that should have prevented this in the first place. That is documented. Adding new laws will not prevent it from happening again. That's a given... Simply considering what we have gone through with respect to gun-control should be the tip-off: The older laws did not curtail crime. New laws have not curtailed crime. Oath Keepers is not a militia movement, despite all the rhetoric that is being said here and elswhere. Oath Keepers does not require anyone to resubmit (retake) their oath of service. They do endorse that those considering membership, remember their sworn oath and hold to it. Oath Keepers mission is to remind us of that oath. To educate those that don't understand what it means. Board of Directors of Oath Keepers: Sgt. Dave Freeman (RET), Las Vegas Metro, and Army veteran. National Peace Officer Liaison.Add to this that S.W.A.T. magazine endorses the group should say something about their legitimacy. Neither Denny Hansen (Editor) nor Rich Lucibella (Owner of the mag and TFL) would put their names behind an illegitimate organization. So just who is doing the fear mongering here? |
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October 22, 2009, 12:17 PM | #49 |
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Maybe if the german military had a club like this, it would have been easier for them to declare an affective NO! When they were ordered to do something they knew to be wrong.
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October 22, 2009, 12:41 PM | #50 | |
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If an individual soldier refuses to obey an order he or she believes to be unlawful, that's a matter of conscience, of individual freedom, if you will; and it can be done honorably, as a matter of civil disobedience in which the individual accepts the legal consequences of doing so. The case of Ehren Watada, who refused an order to deploy to Iraq because he believed the war there to be illegal, is an instructive example of this. (And given the Oath Keepers' #5, "We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty," they should also be refusing to serve there, it seems to me.) But when a group of soldiers refuses to obey orders and decides to resist instead, that's, well, mutiny, which is not remotely the same as civil disobedience. So... when I looked at their website, they completely lost me with this: "If you, the American people, are forced to once again fight for your liberty in another American Revolution, you will not be alone. We will stand with you."Do I have this right? There are NO conditions attached to the above statement, are there? These folks -- whose whole point, ostensibly, is that they're explicitly sworn to uphold the Constitution "against all enemies, foreign and domestic" -- are saying that they'd support an attempt to overthrow the Government. The, um, Constitutionally mandated, duly elected Government. They can't have it both ways. This goes well beyond reminding those who serve that they swore an oath to uphold the Constitution. Combined with the fearmongering which TG rightly points out, it's not a pretty picture, no matter how they try to dress it up in ersatz patriotism. And perhaps S.W.A.T. magazine ought to reconsider its endorsement...
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