So what is China doing with all our lead?

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Just curious.

[9mmHP]

Preparing for the day when they send it back to us as high velocity projectiles aimed at U.S. ships, planes, and people. What did you think?

[Pahoo]

How about nuclear radiation sheilding for themselves and products they might be selling?

Paranoid?? ... Perhaps
Protective?? ... You Bet

[Crimp]

Putting it in the paint for our kids' toys?

[Rangefinder]

Awe, y'all are just too paranoid... They just have a whole lot of tires that are out of balance.

Actually I think my vote is for "D"---all the previously mentioned.

[Musketeer]

I'll take a wild guess and say... solder.

Seriously, China is a HUGE consumer of raw materials at this time. Part of the reason for the enormous spikes in the price of copper and nickel alloys has been the huge boom in demand from China. Our machining plants in Switzerland have every bit of scrap collected and shipped to China where they will take anything they can get to process into usable material for their own industry.

China has no interest in using our lead to fire back at us. Their goal is to completely supplant us as the dominant power on the globe economically, using our money to do so. Right now they are using sales to us to drive up their own prosperity and kick start an unprecedented internal market. America is funding that by buying $30 DVD players.

This does not mean I don't think we will exchange shots with China. We will as they make a serious move to secure natural resources for their own use which we consider "global". There will be a fight but it will be localized to the area where the resources are and the paths between the area and both nations. This is why China is building a blue water navy, power projection. They do not need to fight the entire USN, just the part we can spare for the hot spot in question. They may start the fight by rolling in to take over some region but will most likely not actively attack US forces first, depending on us to instigate true hostilities. They will continue to state that the issue is between China and the region in question, not the USA and that they would like to keep the USA as a valuable trading partner. As a result we could easily see US and Chinese troops/sailors duking it out in one part of the world while the shelves at Walmart continue to be stocked. That though is most likely 10-20 years from now. The tipping point is when China has a viable self sustaining market (if not 100% self sustaining at least stable) for its own manufactured goods and resource requirements force their hand.

[Randy_che]

Musketeer has his thinking cap on.

[P5 Guy]

Sounds like Japan in the 30s

[Unclenick]

The question reminds me of an old joke about Russian technology.

Back in the 1970's, when the old Soviet Union was still the technological star of the communist world, a Russian citizen went to the bus stop to wait for public transportation home. Standing at the stop was another Russian with a couple of suitcases.

The first Russian asked the one with the suitcases if he had the time? With great pride and flourish, the second Russian pulled back his sleeve and to display something the other had never seen before: a digital watch with red light emitting diode display. He showed the first Russian the time and date. He showed how to see the time in other Soviet time zones. The first Russian was very impressed and thanked the second for the demonstration.

After waiting awhile longer, the first Russian decides a little idle conversation might help the boredom of the wait. He asks the second Russian where he is travelling to?

"I am not traveling comrade," responded the second Russian, "I am just going home from the office."

The first Russian scratched his head. "But comrade", he protested, "if you are not traveling, why do have the suitcases?"

The second Russian tapped watch on his wrist and said: "The batteries, comrade, the batteries."

If you have occasion to buy lead-acid batteries, you'll discover a lot of them are now from China. The more lax environmental regulations make that country an obvious place to have them made, despite the shipping cost.

[Mike Irwin]

I'd bet the lion's share is going one place...

Electronics.

[cdrt]

If you have occasion to buy lead-acid batteries, you'll discover a lot of them are now from China. The more lax environmental regulations make that country an obvious place to have them made, despite the shipping cost.

Besides China, one of our local bullet makers told me someone just opened a new battery mfg plant down near Houston. That's causing the cost of the lead they use to go up and of course, they had to raise their prices for bullets about 25%.

And more Chinese are driving cars these days, which has increased their own demand for batteries and oil.

[Musketeer]

ROHS... Reduction of Hazardous Materials and the associated environmental protocols started in Europe have significantly affected the ability to use lead in products, especially electronics for everyone who FOLLOWS THE RULES.

Now lead has many good features which is the reason it was used for so long and it is much cheaper than many of the alternatives.

If you were a manager of a Chinese plant and the only thing which was preventing you from doing a multi million dollar electronics job was signing agreement to a ROHS protocol you have no intention of following and the customer doesn't really want to know about because it would cost him more what would you do?

The bottom line is China is using lead in vast quantities and often in places it shouldn't be. What is more they just don't understand out environmental fears about it since they let waste water loaded with mercury out into rivers feeding crops.

[The Lovemaster]

Sort of related and sort of not.....the Chinese economy has done the same thing to other construction materials, e.g. steel and cement prices have gone through the roof.

[ShipWreck]

Don't U guys know - China is taking all our lead - causing ammo prices to go up.

Then, they give us the lead back in our children's toys!!

[caz223]

We just had a local thing where we got a few shipments of A/C equipment from china, and it was all painted in lead based paint.
This is a ductwork type item, so we sent it back, making us 6 months further behind schedule, due to lead times of us having to fab the lead coated parts locally.

[Musketeer]

That's what I mean. They really don't think we are serious about the lead issue if money is on the line. There is also no expectation of honesty. I am not trying to be racist here but I have seen a significant difference in dealing with Chinese manufacturers than in dealing with Western ones. This is backed up by discussions on the issue with people from the region (mostly from Singapore which is almost 70% Chinese). In China people EXPECT you to lie, cut corners and try to get away with this stuff. What is more nobody expects the first submission of an order to be right. You got the job after all on price so that is all that matters. If the first parts are covered with lead or out of tolerance it doesn't really matter because the price was right. If it really does matter then they will find out when it is rejected and they can do it again. Always enter a new relationship with them with the assumption that they are lying to you and they expect you to know and accept that.

[Alleykat]

Musketeer is 100% accurate about the difficulty of dealing with Chinese manufacturers. Dishonesty is part of their culture. When one travels fifty-sixty-miles outside major metro areas, one is stunned by the lawlessness. If a driver runs over a pedestrian, he/she'll back up and run over him/her again, so as to be sure not to have to pay for medical expenses. (Burials are pretty cheap.)

[Musketeer]

A Sing friend/co-worker calls it the "little emperor syndrome." Every manager over there wants to be emperor and is going to do everything possible to make that happen. Everyone knows this and accepts this so when the guy you are dealing with lies to you or cheats you there is no reason to be offended. After all they are expecting you to be doing the same to them and everybody knows everybody is doing it to each other.

Really it is an incredible change in culture to work like that. We may curse about a supplier or customer here and even accuse them of being dishonest from time to time but imagine doing business where you expect EVERYBODY to be lying. When you get caught you just make good and carry on trying to cheat on everything else. Nobody holds it against you because they all do it to each other all the time.

Now for me, who has the majority of our components made in Switzerland to very exacting tolerances it is a real problem. We work with some facilities in Singapore, which isn't as bad as China but still has a lot of that Chinese mentality, we had a steep learning curve and really had to work to develop a good relationship where they not only understood our needs but BELIEVED us when we said "no, really, they have to be right!" Now when we make product in our Swiss facility for shipment into China for the electronics industry it is a nightmare. The incoming inspections are like something out of the inquisition because they cannot believe that we culturally pride ourselves on making high quality products and that trust is a huge benefit we bring to the table. They CAN'T trust so they attack every incoming shipment with the mentality that something MUST be wrong if they look hard enough. Rest assured they will eventually find something and reject a lot on occasion even if in depth analysis shows there really was nothing wrong. Their QA people MUST prove they are doing their job and since everybody "knows" we have to be cheating them if there was nothing rejected then their QA is not doing their job. For us in the USA offices we have to run interference between our Swiss facility (good luck telling them they were wrong or need to eat a rejection of good parts to save the face of Asian QA) and the Asian customer (Who can't comprehend anything such as "Dock to Stock" and that a material cert is really valid. We seriously need to have a Swiss material cert and lot checked at an outside lab because they think we may change the material and tell them it is the same...). What a mess.

If any one thing holds up Chinese manufacturing it will be the trust factor. People can deal with defects in toys and DVD players but pacemakers and airbag igniters are another matter! Unless there is a complete cultural change China cannot take the manufacturing of products where quality really is critical away. They stop gap the problem with huge amounts of inspections but when the problem is the system inspection only goes so far.

[dwhite]

I've heard the Chinese are working with the Cubans pumping crude oil out of the Gulf of Mexico. They're not quite as worried about destroying our environment as we are. They'll have it gone before the environmentalist WHACKOS in our government allow us to pump the first drop.

All the Best,
D. White

[Al Norris]

The cultural concepts previously mentioned are rather fascinating to me. Unfortunately, it is not fodder for the Handloading forum. Nor is it an appropriate discussion for L&P. Nor General.

Sorry, gonna have to close this one.