.44 S&W Special loading questions-- Berry Bullets

Nnobby45 · September 14, 2008, 09:41 PM

Just got my new Dillon dies for .44 Spec. so I could load up some ammo for my new M21 Thunder Ranch on my 550B.

First time I ever loaded for .44 Spec. Sized cases in carbide sizer and flared to what looked like a normal degree. The Berry 200 gr. rnfp plated bullets weren't very tight and I could push them down into the case with my thumb.

I finally lessened the expanding of the case mouth to less than I like and increased the crimp. On the Dillon die, the crimp is more or less a taper crimp with a small amount of roll crimp at the end. This appeared to solve the problem--I used moderate pressure to test the bullets before heading for the range.

I load for a number of calibers, and usually the case tension from sizing is enough to secure the bullet.

I'm wondering if anyone else is familiar with bullet seating tendencies for the .44 Special with plated bullets. The Berry 200 rnfp appears to be the proper diameter.

Also, would like to know if anyone with Dillon carbide sizer had any problems with 200 or 246 gr. lead.

For the record, in my pistol, 6.1 gr. of TightGroup produced average velocities of about 860 fps. 6.2 is max for both lead and jkt'd in the Speer manual.

I plan to reduce to about 5.8 to make it more pleasant shooting and reduce velocity. One small piece of plated lead, 1/4" in diameter, hit my chrono and stuck in it! Fortunately is missed the readout.

joneb · September 14, 2008, 10:54 PM

Quote:

The Berry 200 gr. rnfp plated bullets weren't very tight and I could push them down into the case with my thumb.

Did you measure these bullets to make sure they are .429 and not .427 AKA 44-40 ?

Nnobby45 · September 15, 2008, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Did you measure these bullets to make sure they are .429 and not .427 AKA 44-40 ?

Thanks, jibjab.

Yes, I have since I posted, and you're correct. They mic out at .427, and that would appear to be the source of the problem, since the Dillon expander is .426. Not a lot of tension!

I ordered the .44 Special die kit from Dillon, along with bullets, and they sent .44/200 fp 864-491 (lot#?).

Berry's site shows their .44/ 200 fp as .429.

I emailed Berry's and I'll see what they have to say.

You think there's be a problem shooting them, with light loads and reasonably heavy crimp?

I have 650 left. I suspect it was the heavy crimp necessary to secure the bullet, that probably damaged the plating and caused the fragment to hit my Chrono.

Nnobby45 · September 15, 2008, 04:39 PM

removed--dbl post

Nnobby45 · September 15, 2008, 04:40 PM

Was referred to Bud Watson, consultant for Berry Bullets, before I got the reply by email from a Tech at Berrys'.

Thanks for getting back to me. I Purchased 750 bullets from Dillon.

I called earlier and was referred to Bud Watson,your consultant, who pointed out that the Dillon die sized the case properly, but the Dillon expander, on the funnel, expanded it back out too much before it was even belled.

Your bullets are tapered so that only about 1/8th of an inch is actually .429. The middle of the bullet, where I measured is .427. Need a funnel that doesn't expand the case, but only bells the mouth.

Dillon is sending me a .44-40 funnel/expander, which is smaller, and which Bud and I both think will solve the problem. The other alternative is to reduce the dimension on the expanding portion of the .44 Spl funnel to accomplish the above.

Thanks, Nolan

NOTE: The swaging process makes it necessary to taper the bullets so they can be removed from the mold. Only 1/8th of the bullet, at rear, is actually .429. By going to a 44-40 funnel/expander designed for a .427 bullet, the case will not be expanded back out before it reaches the belling portion.

The piece of plating that stuck in my Chrono was caused by too much crimp which damaged the plating. In extreme cases, it's possible that a piece could actually hit the forcing cone and come out the cylinder gap. The Dillon crimp die for .44 Spec. is a taper crimp that also gives a slight roll crimp. It's bullet tension that holds the bullet in the case. Not the crimp, like I was trying to do.

Bottom line: Berry plated bullets (all plated bullets) are not compatible with a die that expands the case mouth back out. The Dillon die, and others as well, I'd suspect, ate properly set up for a bullet that's .429. But not when just a small portion of the bullet is the proper dimension.

This problem doesn't exist with plated bullets for semi-autos, but is inherent with revolver bullets.

drail · September 15, 2008, 09:20 PM

My solution to this was to try the Lyman M-step expander die. It only expands the the first .020" or so of the case and doesn't really flare the mouth very much, just enough to start the bullet. You can also chuck the expander button in a drill press and turn down the lower portion of the button so that the part of the case that is not flared achieves a tighter grip on the bullet. About one and a half thousandths under bullet diameter will totally eliminate setback and allow a less aggressive crimp which helps prolong case life. I can take a round before crimping and press it hard on the edge of the bench and it will not move. Case neck tension is a much better way to stop setback than crimping the case to death in my opinion.

zxcvbob · September 15, 2008, 09:27 PM

I had that problem with Berry's .452 bullets (I think they were 230 grain) in .45 Colt cases. I got around it by using a .30-06 sizing die to "neck size" the .45 Colt brass -- they looked like big .44-40's when I was done with them. Eventually i just put those bullets aside and will use them someday when I get a .45ACP.

I've had no problems with Berry's bullets in .38 Special. In fact, their 125 grain HP's are the most accurate bullets I've found for my S&W 15-4, even better than 148 WC's.

Rampant_Colt · September 15, 2008, 09:31 PM

..

Nnobby45 · September 15, 2008, 11:20 PM

Quote:

You can also chuck the expander button in a drill press and turn down the lower portion of the button so that the part of the case that is not flared achieves a tighter grip on the bullet. About one and a half thousandths under bullet diameter will totally eliminate setback.....

That's essentially what I accomplish by having Dillon send me the 44-40 set up. Should be about .002 smaller than the .44. I'll see in a couple days when it arrives.

Since the .429 jkt'd bullets, and .430 lead, should work well with the case mouth expanded back out, I was just wondering if they could be too tight when the expansion is reduced (actually eliminated) to accommodate the smaller diameter Berrys.

I supposed if they're properly belled to start the bullet, then there shouldn't be too much worry about crushing a case.

In other words, I don't want to change back and forth between the two different sized expanders when going from .427 Berrys to .429's.

Turning down the button on a rifle cal. expander works well as you described. The Dillon expander/funnel is way too big for sticking in a drill press. I was wondering what other machine process could be used to do that, for future reference.

I know some of you guys have probably been loading .44 Special for years and know all the tricks. I'm just starting.

en-frame · October 13, 2008, 08:33 PM

Nnobby45, did your substitution of 44-40 parts for loading .44 Berry plated bullets in .44 special cases work out? I'm very curious as I'm having serious accuracy / keyholing problems with my Mod. 29-2 6" shooting 200gn FP Berry plated bullets. The loads are moderate (10.7gn 231; WLP primer), and I roll crimp them over the shoulder of the bullet, for an OAL of 1.594". I also tried increasing the velocity a bit, loading to 11.1gn 231 with the same results. Anyway, I'm thinking of using the bullets for .44 special instead, hence my question as to whether you had fixed your seating problem.

Thanks

Nnobby45 · October 13, 2008, 10:01 PM

Yes, it works relatively well. Since the only portion of the bullet that is actually .429 is a narrow 1/8" band at the rear, I use the 44-40 funnel so as not to expand the case back out. I only gain a little tension, however, and can still push the bullet into the case with my thumb.

I now seat the bullet out farther so the 1/8th portion that's .429 is closer to the case mouth and, therefore, might better benefit from the taper crimp. I changed my OAL from 1.420 to 1.465.

Since the die (Dillon) also imparts a roll crimp, I crimp it as hard as I dare without damaging the plating. Done in the above manor secures the bullet so I cannot push the bullet into the case when applying a moderate amount of pressure when pushing the bullet into the bench.

Lastly: I'm not sure how the less than adequate bullet tension causes your bullets to keyhole. I'd suspect you're crimping so hard you're damaging the plating on the bullet, which could certainly account for your problem.

With the seating depth and OAL I use for .44 Special being figured for .44 Mag, that should make your OAL about 1.59, which is about where you're at.

en-frame · October 14, 2008, 04:22 AM

O.K., I've ordered a 44-40 adapter kit for my 550B. I'll give it a try. I pulled a bullet to see if my crimp damaged the plating on one of the "frisbee" rounds. It had not. Which is what I figured since I crimp over the shoulder of the bullet, and not into the body. But it never hurts to check. When the 44-40 funnel arrives I'll load up a few test .44 special rounds with the Berry 200gn bullets and see what happens. Hopefully this will solve the problem: the rangemaster is starting to give me funny looks. He probably thinks I'm shooting with my eyes closed

Thanks for the update, Nnobby45.

Nnobby45 · October 14, 2008, 03:55 PM

Since you're crimping over the shoulder of the bullet, it sounds like you're seated pretty deep. I wouldn't be surprised if your accuracy improved if you crimped on the body of the bullet after seating the bullet out further.

And, as I mentioned, I think the taper crimp would secure the bullet a little better if the rear part of the bullet is not so far from the case mouth. That, combined with the roll crimp seems to secure the bullet reasonably well. About .330" of bullet is in the case.

By some chance are you using a roll crimp only? Without benefit of the taper crimp, also, that could certainly account for loose bullets.

jamaica · October 14, 2008, 11:20 PM

I was having the same problem using Berry's plated bullets. I was using an old set of C&H dies. I bought a new set of RCBS dies and the problem went away. Go figure.

My best guess is that the sizer on the old set may have worn a bit over the many years I have used them or maybe it was not just right from the get-go?

I crimp very lightly on the plated bullets. I don't want to damage the plating which is very thin. They haven't backed out with the recoil, so its all good.

Using the smaller expander should fix the problem?

Come to think of it, I have a set of 44-40 dies and could have tried that expander, but never thought of it. Hmmmmm

en-frame · October 14, 2008, 11:55 PM

Nnobby45, jamaica, thanks for the feedback. I'll test these ideas and see what happens. I don't have my 44-40 expander/funnel yet, but I can load a couple of the bullets so that I crimp (lightly!), further down the body of the bullet. I'll try a few this weekend and see what happens. It's fun having a reloading mystery to work on!

en-frame · October 16, 2008, 02:39 AM

I decided take out my trusty bullet puller and modify the lengths of some of the "frizbee" rounds (please refer to attached photo). A few careful taps and I was able to increase the OAL on 6 test rounds from the original 1.594" (bullet on the left), to lengths ranging from 1.685 - 1.705 (the arrow points to the original crimp mark on the example bullet on the right). The case tension on the bullets is still enough to keep me from pushing the bullets further into the case using my fingers. I'll load them one at a time and see how true they fly.

jamaica · October 17, 2008, 09:59 PM

I always like to load up and shoot all but one then look at the last one to see if the bullet is getting pulled. If not, its good to go. Good Luck.

en-frame · October 19, 2008, 12:50 AM

I visited the range today, and the results were... interesting. Not quite what I had expected. Before going I loaded 6 rounds of .44 mag with 10.7gn of 231 and the problematic 200gn Berry FMJFP bullets. Each was seated and lightly crimped to an OAL of 1.610". I fired the set of 6, and all printed on the paper, though they did show signs of instability (holes were widely scattered and a bit on the oval side). Still, this was a major improvement over the "frisbee" behavior of the shorter rounds, most of which never came close to the paper. Then I shot the 7 rounds, originally short, that I had resized using a kinetic bullet puller (200gn Berry in front of 11.1gn 231). Of the 7, only one printed on the paper. Sizes for these reworked rounds ranged from 1.593" - 1.605". The one that stayed on the paper had an OAL of 1.596". I also fired 30 Montana Gold 240gn JSP (OAL of 1.595"; 9.7gn 231), and had no trouble keeping these rounds in the black.

So far it appears that, in this revolver (S&W 629), the 200gn FMJFP Berrys work better with lighter loads and longer OAL. But still nothing to write home about.

September 14, 2008, 09:41 PM	#1
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	.44 S&W Special loading questions-- Berry Bullets Just got my new Dillon dies for .44 Spec. so I could load up some ammo for my new M21 Thunder Ranch on my 550B. First time I ever loaded for .44 Spec. Sized cases in carbide sizer and flared to what looked like a normal degree. The Berry 200 gr. rnfp plated bullets weren't very tight and I could push them down into the case with my thumb. I finally lessened the expanding of the case mouth to less than I like and increased the crimp. On the Dillon die, the crimp is more or less a taper crimp with a small amount of roll crimp at the end. This appeared to solve the problem--I used moderate pressure to test the bullets before heading for the range. I load for a number of calibers, and usually the case tension from sizing is enough to secure the bullet. I'm wondering if anyone else is familiar with bullet seating tendencies for the .44 Special with plated bullets. The Berry 200 rnfp appears to be the proper diameter. Also, would like to know if anyone with Dillon carbide sizer had any problems with 200 or 246 gr. lead. For the record, in my pistol, 6.1 gr. of TightGroup produced average velocities of about 860 fps. 6.2 is max for both lead and jkt'd in the Speer manual. I plan to reduce to about 5.8 to make it more pleasant shooting and reduce velocity. One small piece of plated lead, 1/4" in diameter, hit my chrono and stuck in it! Fortunately is missed the readout.

September 15, 2008, 09:27 PM	#7
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	I had that problem with Berry's .452 bullets (I think they were 230 grain) in .45 Colt cases. I got around it by using a .30-06 sizing die to "neck size" the .45 Colt brass -- they looked like big .44-40's when I was done with them. Eventually i just put those bullets aside and will use them someday when I get a .45ACP. I've had no problems with Berry's bullets in .38 Special. In fact, their 125 grain HP's are the most accurate bullets I've found for my S&W 15-4, even better than 148 WC's. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

September 15, 2008, 09:31 PM	#8
Rampant_Colt Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2006 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 1,478	.. __________________ member of an elite paramilitary organization: Eagle Scouts Last edited by Rampant_Colt; September 16, 2008 at 06:01 PM.

October 13, 2008, 08:33 PM	#10
en-frame Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 27	Berry Plated Bullets Revisited Nnobby45, did your substitution of 44-40 parts for loading .44 Berry plated bullets in .44 special cases work out? I'm very curious as I'm having serious accuracy / keyholing problems with my Mod. 29-2 6" shooting 200gn FP Berry plated bullets. The loads are moderate (10.7gn 231; WLP primer), and I roll crimp them over the shoulder of the bullet, for an OAL of 1.594". I also tried increasing the velocity a bit, loading to 11.1gn 231 with the same results. Anyway, I'm thinking of using the bullets for .44 special instead, hence my question as to whether you had fixed your seating problem. Thanks

October 14, 2008, 11:20 PM	#14
jamaica Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2006 Location: Northern Utah Posts: 705	I was having the same problem using Berry's plated bullets. I was using an old set of C&H dies. I bought a new set of RCBS dies and the problem went away. Go figure. My best guess is that the sizer on the old set may have worn a bit over the many years I have used them or maybe it was not just right from the get-go? I crimp very lightly on the plated bullets. I don't want to damage the plating which is very thin. They haven't backed out with the recoil, so its all good. Using the smaller expander should fix the problem? Come to think of it, I have a set of 44-40 dies and could have tried that expander, but never thought of it. Hmmmmm Last edited by jamaica; October 14, 2008 at 11:25 PM. Reason: to add

September 15, 2008, 04:39 PM	#4
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	removed--dbl post

September 15, 2008, 04:40 PM	#5
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	Was referred to Bud Watson, consultant for Berry Bullets, before I got the reply by email from a Tech at Berrys'. Thanks for getting back to me. I Purchased 750 bullets from Dillon. I called earlier and was referred to Bud Watson,your consultant, who pointed out that the Dillon die sized the case properly, but the Dillon expander, on the funnel, expanded it back out too much before it was even belled. Your bullets are tapered so that only about 1/8th of an inch is actually .429. The middle of the bullet, where I measured is .427. Need a funnel that doesn't expand the case, but only bells the mouth. Dillon is sending me a .44-40 funnel/expander, which is smaller, and which Bud and I both think will solve the problem. The other alternative is to reduce the dimension on the expanding portion of the .44 Spl funnel to accomplish the above. Thanks, Nolan NOTE: The swaging process makes it necessary to taper the bullets so they can be removed from the mold. Only 1/8th of the bullet, at rear, is actually .429. By going to a 44-40 funnel/expander designed for a .427 bullet, the case will not be expanded back out before it reaches the belling portion. The piece of plating that stuck in my Chrono was caused by too much crimp which damaged the plating. In extreme cases, it's possible that a piece could actually hit the forcing cone and come out the cylinder gap. The Dillon crimp die for .44 Spec. is a taper crimp that also gives a slight roll crimp. It's bullet tension that holds the bullet in the case. Not the crimp, like I was trying to do. Bottom line: Berry plated bullets (all plated bullets) are not compatible with a die that expands the case mouth back out. The Dillon die, and others as well, I'd suspect, ate properly set up for a bullet that's .429. But not when just a small portion of the bullet is the proper dimension. This problem doesn't exist with plated bullets for semi-autos, but is inherent with revolver bullets.

September 15, 2008, 09:20 PM	#6
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	My solution to this was to try the Lyman M-step expander die. It only expands the the first .020" or so of the case and doesn't really flare the mouth very much, just enough to start the bullet. You can also chuck the expander button in a drill press and turn down the lower portion of the button so that the part of the case that is not flared achieves a tighter grip on the bullet. About one and a half thousandths under bullet diameter will totally eliminate setback and allow a less aggressive crimp which helps prolong case life. I can take a round before crimping and press it hard on the edge of the bench and it will not move. Case neck tension is a much better way to stop setback than crimping the case to death in my opinion.

October 13, 2008, 10:01 PM	#11
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	Yes, it works relatively well. Since the only portion of the bullet that is actually .429 is a narrow 1/8" band at the rear, I use the 44-40 funnel so as not to expand the case back out. I only gain a little tension, however, and can still push the bullet into the case with my thumb. I now seat the bullet out farther so the 1/8th portion that's .429 is closer to the case mouth and, therefore, might better benefit from the taper crimp. I changed my OAL from 1.420 to 1.465. Since the die (Dillon) also imparts a roll crimp, I crimp it as hard as I dare without damaging the plating. Done in the above manor secures the bullet so I cannot push the bullet into the case when applying a moderate amount of pressure when pushing the bullet into the bench. Lastly: I'm not sure how the less than adequate bullet tension causes your bullets to keyhole. I'd suspect you're crimping so hard you're damaging the plating on the bullet, which could certainly account for your problem. With the seating depth and OAL I use for .44 Special being figured for .44 Mag, that should make your OAL about 1.59, which is about where you're at.

October 14, 2008, 04:22 AM	#12
en-frame Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 27	O.K., I've ordered a 44-40 adapter kit for my 550B. I'll give it a try. I pulled a bullet to see if my crimp damaged the plating on one of the "frisbee" rounds. It had not. Which is what I figured since I crimp over the shoulder of the bullet, and not into the body. But it never hurts to check. When the 44-40 funnel arrives I'll load up a few test .44 special rounds with the Berry 200gn bullets and see what happens. Hopefully this will solve the problem: the rangemaster is starting to give me funny looks. He probably thinks I'm shooting with my eyes closed Thanks for the update, Nnobby45.

October 14, 2008, 03:55 PM	#13
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	Since you're crimping over the shoulder of the bullet, it sounds like you're seated pretty deep. I wouldn't be surprised if your accuracy improved if you crimped on the body of the bullet after seating the bullet out further. And, as I mentioned, I think the taper crimp would secure the bullet a little better if the rear part of the bullet is not so far from the case mouth. That, combined with the roll crimp seems to secure the bullet reasonably well. About .330" of bullet is in the case. By some chance are you using a roll crimp only? Without benefit of the taper crimp, also, that could certainly account for loose bullets.

October 14, 2008, 11:55 PM	#15
en-frame Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 27	Nnobby45, jamaica, thanks for the feedback. I'll test these ideas and see what happens. I don't have my 44-40 expander/funnel yet, but I can load a couple of the bullets so that I crimp (lightly!), further down the body of the bullet. I'll try a few this weekend and see what happens. It's fun having a reloading mystery to work on!

October 17, 2008, 09:59 PM	#17
jamaica Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2006 Location: Northern Utah Posts: 705	I always like to load up and shoot all but one then look at the last one to see if the bullet is getting pulled. If not, its good to go. Good Luck.

October 19, 2008, 12:50 AM	#18
en-frame Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 27	I visited the range today, and the results were... interesting. Not quite what I had expected. Before going I loaded 6 rounds of .44 mag with 10.7gn of 231 and the problematic 200gn Berry FMJFP bullets. Each was seated and lightly crimped to an OAL of 1.610". I fired the set of 6, and all printed on the paper, though they did show signs of instability (holes were widely scattered and a bit on the oval side). Still, this was a major improvement over the "frisbee" behavior of the shorter rounds, most of which never came close to the paper. Then I shot the 7 rounds, originally short, that I had resized using a kinetic bullet puller (200gn Berry in front of 11.1gn 231). Of the 7, only one printed on the paper. Sizes for these reworked rounds ranged from 1.593" - 1.605". The one that stayed on the paper had an OAL of 1.596". I also fired 30 Montana Gold 240gn JSP (OAL of 1.595"; 9.7gn 231), and had no trouble keeping these rounds in the black. So far it appears that, in this revolver (S&W 629), the 200gn FMJFP Berrys work better with lighter loads and longer OAL. But still nothing to write home about.