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July 7, 2009, 02:55 PM | #76 | |
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"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
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July 7, 2009, 03:01 PM | #77 | ||
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July 7, 2009, 03:03 PM | #78 | |
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I don't know the size of these dogs, or the age, but I would not want to face two dogs with a walking stick. Attack dogs are not trained all that much on how where to bite, they are trained on when to bite. Dogs know to go for the neck if they can reach it. |
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July 7, 2009, 03:07 PM | #79 | ||
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July 7, 2009, 03:17 PM | #80 |
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Looked like a good shoot to me from the very beginning. I do think we can all learn a lot from what he went thru.
Just because we feel a shoot is good, doesn't mean a jury or judge will feel the same. Many folks in this country feel anyone carrying a gun, other than police or military, are crazy. Figure you might start from that position...so, as TG said many times, think long and hard before pulling your gun on an unarmed man. I also know everyone is hot on CM shots, but couldn't Fish have shot him in the leg? Its not close quarters, so he could back up as he shot. Do the first 2 really have to go CoM in every situation? |
July 7, 2009, 03:28 PM | #81 |
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The idea is that if you use an instrument of lethal force in a manner that you think is not lethal, then you didn't have justification to use an instrument of lethal force. Shooting someone is definitionally lethal force. Shooting in the leg is no guarantee that it wouldn't be lethal. Watch all the excitement if your femoral artery is cut.
Shooting COM is doctrine as it offers the most reasonable probability of hitting and stopping someone. If you want to argue that a situation might arrive where you want to stop someone and lower the probability of lethality, that is something that should not be said for supposed legal reasons - even if you did it. One can argue the leg shot was just a panic flinch - there are plenty of videos of LEOs shooting round way in front of someone. I've seen a lot of low shots in FOF as the shots were rushed. Someone will post that you should never engage in the strategy of trying to stop with a peripheral hit - you should maximize the stop with the COM if you can hit it. It's doctrine. We once had a heated debated about this on THR, IIRC. However, I came up with the crazed relative theory. You are attacked by a beloved but crazed relative with a knife. You do have time to draw and shoot but don't want to go for the most lethal probability shot. Thus, you shoot the leg and take the chance that it might be lethal or you get sliced. An unlikely event but it's a thought question. To go back to the original thought - it is not current doctrine to deliberately shoot the leg (or if you did it deliberately, say that you did it - you always say you were in fear of your life and shot because of that). No one will hold you to being William Tell or Annie Oakley under stress.
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July 7, 2009, 03:34 PM | #82 | |||
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If it wern't the fact that apparently Mr Kuenzli was a train wreck looking for a place to happen Mr. Fish would not have needed to shoot him in fear.
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July 7, 2009, 04:35 PM | #83 | ||||
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July 7, 2009, 04:55 PM | #84 |
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DA - Can you describe Mr. Kuenzli's actions when you chased his dog?
Witness #1 - Yes he bacame enraged and waved his arms around like he was going to beat everyone up. He started cursing and his eyes bulged out like they were going to pop out. DA - And what did you do? Witness #1 - I backed off until he cooled down. DA - Did Mr. Kuenzli ever do anything to you? Witness #1 - He just cursed and finally walked off. DA - Can you describe Mr. Kuenzli's actions when you grabbed his dog? Witness #2 - Yes just like the first fellow said he bacame enraged and waved his arms around like he was going to beat everyone up. He started cursing and his eyes bulged out like they were going to pop out. DA- And what did you do? Witness #2 - I just stood there until he calmed down. DA - Did Mr. Kuenzli hurt you? Witness #2 - Not really, he gave me a tap on the shoulder but I was so scared I almost wet my pants. Then he turned and ran off. DA - Can you describe Mr. Kuenzli's actions when you hit his dog? Witness #3 Same story . . . . DA - Can you describe Mr. Kuenzli's actions when you fired a warning shot to scare his dogs? Witness #15 - Yes, it was just as the others have said. He went all crazy and came running at me. DA- And what did you do? Witness #15 - I shot him. DA - You mean to tell us that 14 people have described the same story as you have and he never did anything other than push a few people around but you had to shoot him!!!!!! |
July 7, 2009, 05:06 PM | #85 | |
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If you take a less brave breed like the vizla, or several of the other "skittish" high strung dog breeds and breed it to the chow, pit or many other breeds and will have a "fear biter"! And hit a dog with a stick will often entice a pain bite/attack response. If you smack the majority of humans with any thing thinner than a ball bat and most will "curr out" and run off... Brandish a pool cue at me and I won't hesitate to head in and if hit I will really be ticked off... even with minor injuries like broken fingers etc. you will get all the wrath I can deal out until dead or out cold as will many dogs of any breed.... And I am a mixed breed mutt with 50% italian and the rest from points north in europe... 'cept french! You cannot judge a book by the cover holds true in both dogs and humans but a crazed dog or human charging you can be considered violent with intent to do great bodily harm by the reasonable person. Brent |
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July 7, 2009, 05:36 PM | #86 |
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Not only would I consider Fishes' warning shot reasonable, but is should have served as a warning shot to not only the dogs, but the nutbag as well. If I have just fired a shot to scare away some possibly attacking dogs, and you come running at me, flailing about with your two hams, first, you know I am armed, and I know that you know I'm armed. Running toward an armed man shouting and cursing, just might seem threatening enough for you to assume ambient temperature.
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July 7, 2009, 06:42 PM | #87 | |
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July 7, 2009, 06:51 PM | #88 | |
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Did Kuenzli approach them after any of them had fired a shot into the ground to scare away dogs that they thought were going to attack them? Were any of them approached by Kuenzli while they had a firearm in their hand in clear view of Mr. Kuenzli?
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July 7, 2009, 06:57 PM | #89 |
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There seems to be a big hang up about the dogs, and for many reasons. Just for the record, does anyone know a reputable source for exactly what kind of dogs these were? How big were they? Did the dogs have a record of being agressive (Fish seemed to think they were agressive, but was there any evidence aside from his story that they were?) Are there by chance pictures of these particular dogs floating around (preferable with some kind of size reference also in the picture)?
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July 7, 2009, 07:01 PM | #90 | |
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July 7, 2009, 07:04 PM | #91 | |
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July 7, 2009, 07:26 PM | #92 | |||
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and here is the other Ferocious beasts aren't they?
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July 7, 2009, 07:30 PM | #93 | ||
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"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; July 7, 2009 at 07:40 PM. |
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July 7, 2009, 07:59 PM | #94 |
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"Ferocious beasts aren't they?"
Absolute non-sequitor. ANY dog can be vicious depending on the situation. I owned a Chow-Beagle-Shepherd mix for over a decade. She was one of the sweetest dogs I've ever encountered. But if she thought I was threatened it was incredible how quickly she'd go into protection/attack mode. Chows and chow mixes are also incredibly strong, and have extreme bites. I made the mistake of getting between Nikky and another dog that decided it wanted to tussle with her once, and I took her bite full on, one that was meant to do damage to the other dog. She released immediately when she realized that she had me, but the damage was pretty impressive. 30 seconds later, when we got the dogs separated, Nikky was looking calm and peaceful as always, but I was still bleeding like a stuck pig with a nice big mirror set of punctures. How a dog looks or is behaving right now is NO indication as to how it's going to look or behave 5 minutes from now when the situation is completely different.
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July 7, 2009, 08:03 PM | #95 | |
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July 7, 2009, 08:07 PM | #96 |
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If them two mongrels were charging me... the one in the lead gets the lead aspirin first....
Nothing harmless looking about them 2! Now here is a little puzzle pic. Of these 4 which is least threatening from less to most? I will tell ya'... If the white bulldog ar littlest red dog run at you that means you are putting off a good vibe and both want love-loves. If the bigger red one runs at you she will have her teeth bared but will hit the brakes a few feet from you (usually) and means she senses something off about you like you walked onto the place. The little one you had to look for is my daughter's dog and if you got close to her in any posture you may actually be bitten. By the way, they are all howling to the very rare fire truck siren we hear. Brent |
July 7, 2009, 08:28 PM | #97 |
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Those dogs together look more than big enough to do some damage, or they could be the sweetest things ever. Now, find me a picture with them barking and growling and I'll bet they look mean and dangerous enough. Just a thought.
Oh, and if I have a gun drawn, and you approach me in a manner that leads me to fear that my life is in danger, I will shoot you. And I do have that right. It's called 'self-defense.' And yeah, I'm going to be placed under a hell of lot of scrutiny if you're unarmed, but I'm not willing to risk my life on the chance that maybe you won't cripple or kill me. While I more than respect your right to refrain from doing the same in such a situation, your rights end where mine begin. Kuenzli's rights ended when he took his first agressive and foolish step toward Fish. The fact that our legal system allows convictions under such circumstances is a failure of justice, and one that needs to be corrected.
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July 7, 2009, 08:48 PM | #98 | |
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The fact that they ultimately weren't wasn't a fact know to Fish and wouldn't necessarily have been relevant to his situation if it had been. Last edited by Nnobby45; July 7, 2009 at 08:54 PM. |
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July 7, 2009, 09:03 PM | #99 | |
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July 7, 2009, 10:20 PM | #100 | |||
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shooting at the dogs,shooting the dogs or hitting them with a walking stick doesn't matter none of them would have been illegal.However aggravated assault is against the law. Quote:
So please get off your high horse about how well you can handle dogs and explain what your going to do now that Mr Kuenzli is running at you yelling threats.please remember he's 20 years younger and the three dogs may join the fight.
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