Arms And Ammo warning

sricciardelli · January 19, 2002, 01:22 AM

I have never purchased "second-hand" brass. Always factory fresh and brand new, and even primed when possible. However, as an experiment, I recently purchased 2,000 9MM "...once-fired, sorted and processed commercial brass..." from an outfit called Arms And Ammo.

Their price was $15 per thousand, plus shipping and handling. Well the "shipping and handling" came to another $16. This brought the price up from 1.5 cents each to 2.3-cents each.

Before ordering this brass I contacted the outfit and asked exactly what "processed" means to them. (To me it means at the least that the brass has been cleaned, and sometimes it even means cleaned, de-primed and resized.) The gal I spoke with told me that their brass is all sorted and cleaned. That it was all commercial brass (NO military, NO crimped primers, NO steel or aluminum cases, NO Berdan primed brass), and once fired.

The first thing I noticed when I opened the bags was that this brass never saw the insides of a tumbler, or had been cleaned in any way. So much for the "cleaned" BS!

Well, the next thing I noticed, after breaking the first de-capping pin, was that there was indeed Berdan primed cases...MANY Berdan primed cases. The second thing I noticed was that not all the brass was 9MM! There was some .380ACP, some .40 S&W and even some .22 LR cases! So much for the "sorted" BS!

Then I ran into the crimped cases ... lots of crimped military cases, with headstamps ranging from 1941 to 1998! So much for the "commercial" BS!

Then I ran into the cases that were split and/or had blown primer pockets.

I started looking a little closer at some of the cases, and wouldn't you know it? I actually found crimped military cases on which the crimp had been beveled-out! So much for the "once-fired" BS!

Well, after tossing those "2,000" cases into the tumbler, after de-capping and resizing those "2,000" cases, after running those "2,000" cases through the ultrasonic cleaner, here is what I found:

Actual number of reloadable 9MM cases: 1,626 (paid for 2,000 and got 1,600 ... that brings to cost up to almost 3-cents each)
Number of Berdan primed cases: 78
Number of crimped military cases: 235
Number of .22 LR cases: 23
Number of .380 cases: 26
Number of .40 S&W cases: 18

Headstamps:
Aguilla: 55
AMERC: 8 (all ruptured with blown primer pockets)
CBC: 16
CJ: 5
Cor-Bon: 2
CP: 159
Federal: 42
Frontier: 4
GB: 3
Geco: 3
GFL: 161
HP: 5
IMI: 8
LA: 3
PARA: 17
PMC: 368
PMP: 32
Remington: 160
S&B: 68
S&W: 1
Speer: 51
Winchester: 463

Hell, I even found 6 cases that had been resized and primed...

My intention is to tell you to watch out who you buy your brass from ... and definately do NOT buy from Arms And Ammo!

C.R.Sam · January 19, 2002, 01:36 AM

Ahhh.....but look at the bright side. You now have a good start on a headstamp collection.

Last I looked, Starline 9X19 new brass was bout 7½ cents shipped, by the thousand.

Sam

sricciardelli · January 19, 2002, 02:49 AM

Don't wanna collect it...wanna shoot it!

Cal4D4 · January 19, 2002, 03:44 AM

Aw Crap!...Literally.

WESHOOT2 · January 19, 2002, 06:21 AM

Wideners has the best once-fired brass, but frankly, if one is serious about handloading, one will rarely acquire "used". (Also like Scharch, BHSS, and some others, but...)

Recommend Starline (because you really can't go wrong) in every caliber except 45ACP; prefer IMI 45ACP as best.

Why would anyone buy "roll-sized" cases, when that fact alone tells you they were all swelled up LOL?

sricciardelli · January 19, 2002, 09:36 AM

Generally I buy either IMI (5-cents each) or Starline (7-cents each). But like I said, this was an experiment to seeif it was really worth it to buy "used" (3-cents each plus all the work and time).

It isn't ... if all companies utilize the same method of "sorting, cleaning and processing".

9mm has always been one of the cases that has not even been worth bending over to pick up because it is so cheap.

slickpuppy · January 19, 2002, 07:00 PM

Good to see you are man enough to admit a mistake.

Thanks for the heads up on the supplier.

Another thing is on your web pages. Thanks for at least having the balls to post on loads up there. Some of the multi thousand posters here don't have that going for them so their "advice" is pretty much useless.

But, I really want to know if you have a good lasagna recipe.

You rock SR.

sricciardelli · January 19, 2002, 07:18 PM

You're quite welcome...on all accounts...

DaHaMac · January 19, 2002, 10:40 PM

IMI? New Abbreviation to me, who is this and NEone got a link please? Thanks.

zot · January 19, 2002, 10:44 PM

israeli military industries?

WESHOOT2 · January 20, 2002, 09:32 AM

Yep, Israeli.

www.wideners.com

labgrade · January 21, 2002, 02:50 AM

Yessir! Thanks for "fessin' up" on a (ahem) less than acceptable supplier.

I've only dealt with Midway for their "1000/$x.xx once-fired" stuff & got good results - all usable.

Some do & some don't is the only watch-word & thanks again for the supplier tip. I'd send 'em back ..... tell 'em why.

Frankly, other than brass for SD purposes, I now run whatever through my 9s & hope that I can find enough to reload. If not, there seems to be plenty enough laying on the ground from the last guy ...

As an aside to that last & a segue to the "do you scrounge brass?" post, I've been picking up tons of .45 & 40S&W like a bandit when scrounging for 9mm lately ... this keeps up & I'll hafta buy a coupla more pistols in "other" cailbers. Don't know whether to laugh or cry.

sricciardelli · January 21, 2002, 05:02 PM

I sent e-mail on Friday, and received a reply this morning...

They offered to send me another 2000 or a refund, if I ship these back...right....like I'm gonna ship them back after I tumbled them, de-capped them, re-sized them, washed them, and sorted them.

I told them I would settle for 400 "real processed" cases, totally free of any charges, to settle the problem...I haven't had a reply to my offer.

mbott · January 21, 2002, 06:38 PM

I've only ordered once-fired brass once. Placed an order with Jeff Bartlett at GI Brass (www.gibrass.com). IIRC, I ordered 9mm and .40 just to check it out. Everything arrived exactly as ordered. Mine was a good experience.

--
Mike

Archie · January 22, 2002, 03:00 AM

Jeff Barlett. Got what I contracted for.

Midway. Got what I contracted for.

John Johnson, brassmanbrass.com in Las Vegas. Good service and product.

I did buy 10,000 pieces of .40 S&W brass a couple years ago. Cost, $100 plus another $49 shipping. It was (more or less) sorted, uncleaned, once fired range brass. For what was advertised, it was certainly acceptable. 1.5 cents a piece, and I'm sure from the weight they sent me more than 10,000 cases.
Can't remember who it was.....

sricciardelli · January 22, 2002, 12:57 PM

Received another note from Arms And Ammo this morning. They are sending me another 400 pieces of 9mm brass.

Will let you guys know what shape the new stuff is in when it gets here.

Crimper-D · January 23, 2002, 12:17 AM

Was just looking for some sorted once fired brass for .45ACP and .40S&W. Now I know who not to bother with.

sricciardelli · January 24, 2002, 01:54 PM

Another update from Arms And Ammo.

I just received a piece of e-mail telling me they are shipping me today, via USPS, 500 pieces of their "best" once-fired 9mm brass.

sricciardelli · January 28, 2002, 04:20 PM

Even though it was 17 below zero (F) outside, and there was a 9 mph breeze and a light snow falling, I hooked the dogs to the sled and mushed my way to the post office this morning.

Waiting for me there was a little box from Arms And Ammo. Inside were 500 of the nicest pieces of used 9mm brass I had ever seen!

It is a shame that it took this amount of time and correspondence to finally get it right.

If this is the general quality of what they ship (which many posters have told me it would be) I may try them again...

January 19, 2002, 01:22 AM	#1
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	Arms And Ammo warning I have never purchased "second-hand" brass. Always factory fresh and brand new, and even primed when possible. However, as an experiment, I recently purchased 2,000 9MM "...once-fired, sorted and processed commercial brass..." from an outfit called Arms And Ammo. Their price was $15 per thousand, plus shipping and handling. Well the "shipping and handling" came to another $16. This brought the price up from 1.5 cents each to 2.3-cents each. Before ordering this brass I contacted the outfit and asked exactly what "processed" means to them. (To me it means at the least that the brass has been cleaned, and sometimes it even means cleaned, de-primed and resized.) The gal I spoke with told me that their brass is all sorted and cleaned. That it was all commercial brass (NO military, NO crimped primers, NO steel or aluminum cases, NO Berdan primed brass), and once fired. The first thing I noticed when I opened the bags was that this brass never saw the insides of a tumbler, or had been cleaned in any way. So much for the "cleaned" BS! Well, the next thing I noticed, after breaking the first de-capping pin, was that there was indeed Berdan primed cases...MANY Berdan primed cases. The second thing I noticed was that not all the brass was 9MM! There was some .380ACP, some .40 S&W and even some .22 LR cases! So much for the "sorted" BS! Then I ran into the crimped cases ... lots of crimped military cases, with headstamps ranging from 1941 to 1998! So much for the "commercial" BS! Then I ran into the cases that were split and/or had blown primer pockets. I started looking a little closer at some of the cases, and wouldn't you know it? I actually found crimped military cases on which the crimp had been beveled-out! So much for the "once-fired" BS! Well, after tossing those "2,000" cases into the tumbler, after de-capping and resizing those "2,000" cases, after running those "2,000" cases through the ultrasonic cleaner, here is what I found: Actual number of reloadable 9MM cases: 1,626 (paid for 2,000 and got 1,600 ... that brings to cost up to almost 3-cents each) Number of Berdan primed cases: 78 Number of crimped military cases: 235 Number of .22 LR cases: 23 Number of .380 cases: 26 Number of .40 S&W cases: 18 Headstamps: Aguilla: 55 AMERC: 8 (all ruptured with blown primer pockets) CBC: 16 CJ: 5 Cor-Bon: 2 CP: 159 Federal: 42 Frontier: 4 GB: 3 Geco: 3 GFL: 161 HP: 5 IMI: 8 LA: 3 PARA: 17 PMC: 368 PMP: 32 Remington: 160 S&B: 68 S&W: 1 Speer: 51 Winchester: 463 Hell, I even found 6 cases that had been resized and primed... My intention is to tell you to watch out who you buy your brass from ... and definately do NOT buy from Arms And Ammo!

January 19, 2002, 06:21 AM	#5
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	IMNSHO -- FALSE SAVINGS Wideners has the best once-fired brass, but frankly, if one is serious about handloading, one will rarely acquire "used". (Also like Scharch, BHSS, and some others, but...) Recommend Starline (because you really can't go wrong) in every caliber except 45ACP; prefer IMI 45ACP as best. Why would anyone buy "roll-sized" cases, when that fact alone tells you they were all swelled up LOL? __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

January 20, 2002, 09:32 AM	#11
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	IMI Yep, Israeli. www.wideners.com __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

January 22, 2002, 03:00 AM	#15
Archie Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2000 Location: Hastings, Nebrasksa - the Hear Posts: 2,209	I've dealt with... Jeff Barlett. Got what I contracted for. Midway. Got what I contracted for. John Johnson, brassmanbrass.com in Las Vegas. Good service and product. I did buy 10,000 pieces of .40 S&W brass a couple years ago. Cost, $100 plus another $49 shipping. It was (more or less) sorted, uncleaned, once fired range brass. For what was advertised, it was certainly acceptable. 1.5 cents a piece, and I'm sure from the weight they sent me more than 10,000 cases. Can't remember who it was..... __________________ There ain't no free lunch, except Jesus. Archie Check out updated journal at http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/

January 23, 2002, 12:17 AM	#17
Crimper-D Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: The Bearflag Republic Posts: 579	Thanks for the headsup Was just looking for some sorted once fired brass for .45ACP and .40S&W. Now I know who not to bother with. __________________ "It is evident that scepticism, while it makes no actual change in a man, always makes him feel better.".....H.L.Mencken

January 19, 2002, 01:36 AM	#2
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Ahhh.....but look at the bright side. You now have a good start on a headstamp collection. Last I looked, Starline 9X19 new brass was bout 7½ cents shipped, by the thousand. Sam

January 19, 2002, 02:49 AM	#3
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	Don't wanna collect it...wanna shoot it!

January 19, 2002, 03:44 AM	#4
Cal4D4 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2001 Location: southern california Posts: 679	Aw Crap!...Literally.

January 19, 2002, 09:36 AM	#6
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	Generally I buy either IMI (5-cents each) or Starline (7-cents each). But like I said, this was an experiment to seeif it was really worth it to buy "used" (3-cents each plus all the work and time). It isn't ... if all companies utilize the same method of "sorting, cleaning and processing". 9mm has always been one of the cases that has not even been worth bending over to pick up because it is so cheap.

January 19, 2002, 07:00 PM	#7
slickpuppy Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 1999 Posts: 928	Good to see you are man enough to admit a mistake. Thanks for the heads up on the supplier. Another thing is on your web pages. Thanks for at least having the balls to post on loads up there. Some of the multi thousand posters here don't have that going for them so their "advice" is pretty much useless. But, I really want to know if you have a good lasagna recipe. You rock SR.

January 19, 2002, 07:18 PM	#8
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	You're quite welcome...on all accounts...

January 19, 2002, 10:40 PM	#9
DaHaMac Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2000 Location: West Central Georgia Posts: 247	IMI? New Abbreviation to me, who is this and NEone got a link please? Thanks.

January 19, 2002, 10:44 PM	#10
zot Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 1999 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 566	israeli military industries?

January 21, 2002, 02:50 AM	#12
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Yessir! Thanks for "fessin' up" on a (ahem) less than acceptable supplier. I've only dealt with Midway for their "1000/$x.xx once-fired" stuff & got good results - all usable. Some do & some don't is the only watch-word & thanks again for the supplier tip. I'd send 'em back ..... tell 'em why. Frankly, other than brass for SD purposes, I now run whatever through my 9s & hope that I can find enough to reload. If not, there seems to be plenty enough laying on the ground from the last guy ... As an aside to that last & a segue to the "do you scrounge brass?" post, I've been picking up tons of .45 & 40S&W like a bandit when scrounging for 9mm lately ... this keeps up & I'll hafta buy a coupla more pistols in "other" cailbers. Don't know whether to laugh or cry.

January 21, 2002, 05:02 PM	#13
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	I sent e-mail on Friday, and received a reply this morning... They offered to send me another 2000 or a refund, if I ship these back...right....like I'm gonna ship them back after I tumbled them, de-capped them, re-sized them, washed them, and sorted them. I told them I would settle for 400 "real processed" cases, totally free of any charges, to settle the problem...I haven't had a reply to my offer.

January 21, 2002, 06:38 PM	#14
mbott Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1999 Location: Westerville, Ohio Posts: 640	I've only ordered once-fired brass once. Placed an order with Jeff Bartlett at GI Brass (www.gibrass.com). IIRC, I ordered 9mm and .40 just to check it out. Everything arrived exactly as ordered. Mine was a good experience. -- Mike

January 22, 2002, 12:57 PM	#16
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	Received another note from Arms And Ammo this morning. They are sending me another 400 pieces of 9mm brass. Will let you guys know what shape the new stuff is in when it gets here.

January 24, 2002, 01:54 PM	#18
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	Another update from Arms And Ammo. I just received a piece of e-mail telling me they are shipping me today, via USPS, 500 pieces of their "best" once-fired 9mm brass.

January 28, 2002, 04:20 PM	#19
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	Even though it was 17 below zero (F) outside, and there was a 9 mph breeze and a light snow falling, I hooked the dogs to the sled and mushed my way to the post office this morning. Waiting for me there was a little box from Arms And Ammo. Inside were 500 of the nicest pieces of used 9mm brass I had ever seen! It is a shame that it took this amount of time and correspondence to finally get it right. If this is the general quality of what they ship (which many posters have told me it would be) I may try them again...