.25-06 vs the .243

[Picher]

It's all too easy to blame the caliber/cartridge for bad bullet choices, or poor shooting/shot placement.

Although it's easy for the unwary to select a varmint bullet instead of the common 100 grain factory round that is designed for deer and similar-sized critters. The .243 Win, with the right bullets for the game, is an excellent killer. (Fortunately, the big-box stores sell mostly 100 grain rounds, at least in this area.)

Handloaders may wish to use Barnes solid copper or Hornady gilding metal bullets in 80+ grains. They often penetrate better (fully expanded) than 100 grain factory rounds/bullets. They lose less than 3% of their mass, and expand fully. Having greater muzzle velocity, they often retain more energy than most soft lead core bullets. Trajectory is somewhat flatter as well.

Our family/friends have had excellent results with monolithic bullets in .243 Win (and both .270 Win, 30-06). I also like the fact that no lead dust and small particles are transferred to meat.

Bonded core bullets and Nosler Partitions are also quite effective in .243 Win.

[The Verminator]

That little 100 grain .243 almost STOPPED in the paunch and then I'd have lost the deer for sure. As it was he went well over 100 yards into heavy swamp with no blood trail. One lung showed damage that I would call minimal. And, over some years of using it, this was not the only time I found the .243 to be a little lacking in penetration and tissue damage.

That was a small deer. What would happen on the same shot with a big pig?

And you ask....

I'd have to ask...why take that shot in the first place? On a hunting trip years ago, here I was a guest, one of the hunters gut shot a deer inside 100 yds with a 220gr 30-06. We never found it...

First of all.....it's not a gut shot.....it's a quartering shot to the lungs. It's killed millions of deer and other game and will kill millions more, no doubt.

I'm not surprised that your gut shot failed. That shot will fail with any caliber and result in a lost deer.

Why did I take the shot? For the same reason anybody else does.

I took the shot to get the deer. The shot was aimed into the heart/lung area and did get there.....it's just that the .243 didn't have the power to do the major damage that should have been done.

The bullet reached the lung area but only damaged one lung slightly......thus the near loss of the deer.

Over the years I've done that same shot many times with the .270, the '06, the 7X57 Mauser and once with a .35 Remington.

All resulted in venison with no problems.

Yes, I quit the .243 for deer after a few instances where it didn't have QUITE ENOUGH oomph. It killed well with behind the shoulder shots from the side where penetration was not an issue. It's great for deer if you get the perfect shot.

I don't shoot pigs, but I understand that a big one will offer MORE resistance to the bullet due to heavier hide, muscle and bone.

[homesick]

25-06 IMO

[Striker1]

First of all.....it's not a gut shot.....it's a quartering shot to the lungs. It's killed millions of deer and other game and will kill millions more, no doubt.

I didn't say it was a gut shot...but since you brought it up, where did you hit that deer? What bullet were you using?

I'm not surprised that your gut shot failed. That shot will fail with any caliber and result in a lost deer.

Go back and read again...I didn't shoot the deer that was lost.

If you're taking a deep quartering away shot, just how do you reliably expect to hit both lungs...the "shock wave"?

[The Verminator]

I had a shot once at about 200 yards with the Remington CoreLokt .243 100 grain bullet (on a small deer of about 120 pounds). It was a quartering shot that hit the left flank and ranged up into the right lung. It stopped in the lung and had expended most of its energy before getting to the lung.

It really didn't wreck the lung and cause traumatic shock as one would wish. Heart and left lung showed no damage. That little deer traveled over 100 yards and probably would have gone farther if somebody had been in hot pursuit.

As it was, he decided to lie down and rest......and, of course, he died there.

But.....this was not satisfactory performance as far as I was concerned. He fled into heavy swamp and I was lucky to find him--ZERO blood trail--just blind luck.

I had a few other disappointing experiences with the .243.......where the bullet hit bones and didn't stay together as well as it should have or just plain didn't seem to destroy as much tissue as one would like to see for a quick kill.

And.......I suspect that some big pigs with thick hide and heavy bones could be even MORE challenging to the limited penetration capability of the little .243.

So......I have reason for my skepticism. I'd want a little more power if I might have to take a pig of substantial size and, as I said before, if I can't have a .30 cal. in a 180 grain bullet......I, at least, want the 120 grain of the 25-06 in the hunting the OP mentions.

[Art Eatman]

I like the Sierra 85-grain HPBT. Since it's a "blow-up" bullet, I only take neck shots or cross-body heart/lung shots on Bambi. I won't take angling shots. So far, so good. Never any trailing on some two dozen bucks.

[Striker1]

I like the Sierra 85-grain HPBT. Since it's a "blow-up" bullet, I only take neck shots or cross-body heart/lung shots on Bambi. I won't take angling shots. So far, so good. Never any trailing on some two dozen bucks.

Haven't you heard...those are only good for punching paper...

I've found the GameKings to be very accurate in my rifle.

[The Verminator]

Art.......You use a premium bullet and that's good. The standard (cheapest) CoreLokts or Power Points from Rem/chester will not do as well as premium bullets.

Another problem with this discussion is people keep talking about deer and pigs without reference to size.

I know deer whitetail deer can vary from 80 to 300 pounds.

I suspect "pigs" can vary even more than that.

So while the .243 might be fine for animals of small to medium size......what happens on the larger ones?

I found the .270 130 grain to be sudden death on ALL size deer and was not satisfied with the .243.

[Snyper]

Another problem with this discussion is people keep talking about deer and pigs without reference to size.

That's because given the OP's parameters, size doesn't matter.

People have killed plenty of Moose and Elk with 243's and many have killed deer and hogs with 223's

What matters most is shot placement, followed closely by bullet selection.

[The Verminator]

Oh, size matters.......absolutely.

[The Verminator]

And BTW......hunting moose and elk with the .243 would be downright stupid--even if it somehow worked out ok.

[44 AMP]

......hunting moose and elk with the .243 would be downright stupid--even if it somehow worked out ok.

That's an opinion, and maybe the right one, for you. OR for me. But not for everyone. I won't recommend it, personally, I think the .243 is too light for game that large, but it can, and has been both successfully and humanely used.

Some years back I met an old boy in his late 70s, who had just taken his 6th elk with his .243, He considered it the perfect elk gun. Light, handy, almost no recoil, accurate, etc.

Now, he also didn't take shots more than 100yds, most under half that, and only took neck/head shots. And he was the kind of guy would not take a less than perfect shot. For him, it worked very well. Sort of like the .410 shotgun, within its limitations, and in the hands of an expert, it works very well.

The further you get outside those things, the less effective & efficient it is.

[The Verminator]

Yeah.......the people who shoot elk with a .243 and brag about their success remind me of the people who go to casinos and always win.

If that were true, of course, the casinos would go broke.

People tend to stay quiet about their losses and brag about the wins.

And the elk that are hit and vanish never to be seen again are also easily forgotten.

[oldmanFCSA]

30-06 vs 308 = 308Win (0.308")
7mm-08 vs 280 vs 7mmMag = 280Rem (0.284")
25-06 vs 270 = 25-06Rem (0.257")
6mmR vs 243 = 6mmRem (0.243")
220Swift vs 22-250 = 22-250Rem (0.224")
223Rem vs 222Rem = 222Rem (0.224")
17Rem vs 17HMR = 17HMR (0.172")



338Lapua vs 50BMG = 50BMG
375CheyTac vs 408CheyTac = 375CheyTac (sp??)

(wouldn't own a 270 - too much hype)
(Except for 338, 375, & 408, I own or owned the rest - 220S and 17R are memories. I've shot the 338,375,408, that were owned by friends.)

[Striker1]

Yeah.......the people who shoot elk with a .243 and brag about their success remind me of the people who go to casinos and always win.

If that were true, of course, the casinos would go broke.

People tend to stay quiet about their losses and brag about the wins.

And the elk that are hit and vanish never to be seen again are also easily forgotten.

...but that's not what this thread is about.

[The Verminator]

I didn't bring it up, I just responded.

I suspect we've covered the topic anyhow.....and rather exhaustively.

I know I'm done.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by The Verminator

Art.......You use a premium bullet and that's good. The standard (cheapest) CoreLokts or Power Points from Rem/chester will not do as well as premium bullets.

There is nothing premium about Sierra bullets, they have the same construction as Remmy CL and Win PP bullets. There is no bonding or partitioning of the bullet to help with controlling expansion or weight retention. Sierra only makes two hunting bullets the Pro Hunter which are all flat based bullets and Game Kings that are all boat tailed bullets, but they are just a simple cup and core bullet.

Originally Posted by The Verminator

I had a shot once at about 200 yards with the Remington CoreLokt .243 100 grain bullet (on a small deer of about 120 pounds). It was a quartering shot that hit the left flank and ranged up into the right lung. It stopped in the lung and had expended most of its energy before getting to the lung.

Of course the bullet word have expended most of its energy before getting to the lungs, it had a long way to travel. Most of a bullets energy is expended in a very short distance when the bullet first expands. Since you shot the deer in the flank on a quartering shot it probably had to travel nearly 12-15" to reach a lung leaving most of your bullets energy in the paunch, diaphragm, and liver which it had to travel through to get to the lungs. Its not an ideal shot by any means, but not one I'd avoid taking.

It's funny how how opinions differ sometimes, I personally know people who have killed elk with a .243. I am good friends with a guy who last year lost a trophy bull elk that he shot with a .325 WSM, it took him 21 preference points to draw the tag for that unit so he was pretty blue about it. I've seen him make kills on two previous elk and one wolf in Alaska with that rifle so he can shoot of. He is one of the people I know who has killed elk with a .243 Win as well. He doesn't brag about his success and he doesn't keep quiet about his failures. The group of guys I hunt with are always willing to share their knowledge, and we tend to learn more from failures than success. .

[natman]

This thread desperately needs to get back on track. Let's review the OP's question:

.25-06 vs the .243
The rifle will be bolt action with a 24" bbl. My question is caliber overall effectiveness and versatility. Most shots will hopefully be under 200 yds. at deer and hogs. Any help or experience will be appreciated.

It's not about the 223, the 325 WSM or any of the other tangents the thread has spun off on. It's not about what you can kill with a 243. It's about given a choice between the 243 and the 25-06, which is more effective and versatile on deer and hogs.

Within those limits, there is nothing the 243 can do that the 25-06 can't do as well or better. The main advantage to the 243 is slightly less recoil, but that's not a problem with either cartridge. The only other possible advantage for the 243 would be if the OP was determined to build the lightest, smallest carbine possible, in which case the short action 243 would have a small edge, but there's nothing to indicate that's what the OP has in mind.

[CowTowner]

I should think that the availability of ammunition (commercial) would also play.
To the OP, does your LGS carry both calibers in quantity? Can you find both readily available where you hunt should you "leave the ammo box on the kitchen table"?
That stuff is kind of important. No ammo, no bang.

[Art Eatman]

Aw, out to only 200 yards, it's probably six of one, half-dozen of the other. That's pretty much a gimme shot for a standing-around or walking-slow critter.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by natman

It's not about the 223, the 325 WSM or any of the other tangents the thread has spun off on. It's not about what you can kill with a 243. It's about given a choice between the 243 and the 25-06, which is more effective and versatile on deer and hogs.

Well the .325 WSM comment as in reference to Verminator's insistence that the .243 Win is too small for the OP's needs. My comment was just to show that even if you use what is considered by most as an adequate cartridge for the game being hunted, stuff still happens and animals will be lost regardless. Bringing experiences in that might involve other cartridges isn't irrelevant nor derailing a thread.

Now as far as the. 25-06 vs. .243 they are both equally effective on game the OP wants to use it for. However, I stated and still believe the .243 Win is the most versatile of the two cartridges. That's based on the fact there is a wider variety of factory ammunition and bullets for reloading than the .25-06 has to offer.

[natman]

Well the .325 WSM comment as in reference to Verminator's insistence that the .243 Win is too small for the OP's needs. My comment was just to show that even if you use what is considered by most as an adequate cartridge for the game being hunted, stuff still happens and animals will be lost regardless. Bringing experiences in that might involve other cartridges isn't irrelevant nor derailing a thread.

It's possible to have a bad result with ANY cartridge. The point is that a failure based entirely on the cartridge is more likely to occur with a 243 than a more powerful cartridge.

One off stories prove nothing.

Now as far as the. 25-06 vs. .243 they are both equally effective on game the OP wants to use it for. However, I stated and still believe the .243 Win is the most versatile of the two cartridges. That's based on the fact there is a wider variety of factory ammunition and bullets for reloading than the .25-06 has to offer.

This would be a good point if we were comparing the 30-30 to the 32 Winchester Special.

However, under the circumstances, this is a classic example of something that is technically true but irrelevant to the discussion. There may be more loads available in 243 than in 25-06, but there are still plenty of 25-06 loads from which to choose. The 25-06 has more hunting loads than you could afford to try. The fact that the 243 has even more loads you won't try is doesn't make it a better choice.

And no, I don't believe that the 243 and the 25-06 are equally effective on big game. If everything goes perfectly the 243 will work fine. However the 25-06 will penetrate deeper and hit harder, which will make it work on tougher shots that the 243 can't handle. That's what makes it more versatile and a better choice.

[Striker1]

And no, I don't believe that the 243 and the 25-06 are equally effective on big game. If everything goes perfectly the 243 will work fine. However the 25-06 will penetrate deeper and hit harder, which will make it work on tougher shots that the 243 can't handle. That's what makes it more versatile and a better choice.

By "Big Game" are we to assume you mean ALL big game or just the deer and hogs the OP was talking about...and which this discussion should BE about?

What do you mean by "Tougher Shots"?

[natman]

By "Big Game" are we to assume you mean ALL big game or just the deer and hogs the OP was talking about...and which this discussion should BE about?

What do you mean by "Tougher Shots"?

I'm talking about deer and pigs. I wouldn't use either cartridge for elk if I had a choice, although if I had to the differences that make the 25-06 superior would be even more important.

By tougher shots I mean shots where the angle isn't perfect or you might have to penetrate a shoulder. Please note that I do NOT mean "Texas heart shots" or any similar foolishness.

You can parse my posts looking for nits to pick, but 20% heavier bullet, more frontal area, better sectional density are all real world advantages for the 25-06. If you want to make an argument for the 243, please explain how it is in some way superior to the 25-06, not just "almost as good as".

[joed]

For all the years I've owned a .25-06 I have never had a problem finding ammo, or components for that matter. I don't know where people get the idea that you are going to have failed hunts because you can't find ammo, my Walmart carries .25-06 ammo. A little secret is that through the ammo shortage I always found brass and bullets.

And then there is the argument of higher bc bullets for the .243. Compare apples to apples, look at the bullets Nosler offers in both calibers, not much difference at all.

The 105 gr .243 bullet has been tossed around too. How many rifles chambered for the .243 come with a twist fast enough to stabilize that bullet? Mine won't for sure. It's a model 70 from 2013.

Perhaps the biggest reason I chose the .25-06 in the first place is because I've never been a follower. I have bought cartridges because they were "The fad" at one time. Most I sold when I realized they were nothing special. Now I just buy what I myself want.

A lot of my cartridges are not what anyone would recommend, but I like them. In addition to the .25-06 there is also a .300 H&H Mag, a .35 Remington and a .220 Swift. No, I'm not a follower.