Can you consider a car to be a form of a weapon?

SARuger · October 24, 2015, 08:03 AM

So I'm walking the pup the other night and a car is coming down the street towards me. I wiggle my LED flashlight at them to let them know I'm there. I have had issues before of cars "breezing" me and the dog and its left me a little skiddish. This car veers towards me and proceeds to take a path to hit me! I jump to the ditch and the car passes and I clearly hear the occupants laughing. My road is not lighted, I didn't get the tag and couldn't tell the make/model/color. I had my pocket carry on me and if they had come back to do harm I was ready but they were cowards or they got wise and moved on.

My question is; If they had come back to take another pass at me could I defend myself? I worry because I'm in a house filled neighborhood and a stray bullet could do more harm than good and a moving target is difficult at night with a handgun.

I wonder what the legalities are here? I called the county police and they were of no help. Could care less actually. If I were in a more rural area like where I grew up, I know what I would have done........

I want advice not criticism.

**OldMarksman** · October 24, 2015, 08:10 AM

Quote:

I had my pocket carry on me and if they had come back to do harm I was ready...

Ready to do what?

skizzums · October 24, 2015, 08:43 AM

That's a tough one to call. I understand that most states don't have a duty to retreat, but I think most folks with any sense could figure an easy out if you were actually fearful for your life. They are in a car, I can only assume their are trees, houses and other cars nearby, not to mention just a quick jog back to the house. If you were staying in the same general area, pretty much waiting for the car to return, you couldn't have been fearing much.

SARuger · October 24, 2015, 08:56 AM

Ready to do what?

To protect myself if they had come back hoping I was wounded? I never drew my firearm.

I was a half mile from my house.

**OldMarksman** · October 24, 2015, 09:05 AM

Quote:

To protect myself if they had come back hoping I was wounded?

How would you have gone about doing that?

sandmansans · October 24, 2015, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SARuger

So I'm walking the pup the other night and a car is coming down the street towards me. I wiggle my LED flashlight at them to let them know I'm there. I have had issues before of cars "breezing" me and the dog and its left me a little skiddish. This car veers towards me and proceeds to take a path to hit me! I jump to the ditch and the car passes and I clearly hear the occupants laughing. My road is not lighted, I didn't get the tag and couldn't tell the make/model/color. I had my pocket carry on me and if they had come back to do harm I was ready but they were cowards or they got wise and moved on.

My question is; If they had come back to take another pass at me could I defend myself? I worry because I'm in a house filled neighborhood and a stray bullet could do more harm than good and a moving target is difficult at night with a handgun.

I wonder what the legalities are here? I called the county police and they were of no help. Could care less actually. If I were in a more rural area like where I grew up, I know what I would have done........

I want advice not criticism.

Yea a car is most certainly a weapon. Its not the primary intended use by the manufacturer, but neither are pens, your hands etc...it's when someone decides to use it to cause harm, then it is.

I'm no expert or lawyer, but I'd say if you were making a legitimate effort in getting away, like changing your path of travel and increasing speed and they were still trying to run you down, then you might be justified. Key emphasis on "might". Because again I'm not a lawyer or familiar with your local laws

mehavey · October 24, 2015, 09:51 AM

I see no difference between a man with a gun or a driver trying to run you down.
"...if there is sufficient evidence to prove that it was reasonable to believe that
the offending party posed an imminent threat to the life or well-being of another,
in self-defense."

Seems fairly clearcut.
(Of course the forensics/tiretracks would be most useful at that point)

kilimanjaro · October 24, 2015, 10:19 AM

You can stay on the other side of that ditch you referred to, go up a walk to a neighbor's door, basically get out of the roadway for a few minutes until they get bored with their game and leave, the driver of the car won't follow you. Then a 911 call with a license number is called for.

After all that, and they're still trying to run you down, a shot in the radiator might be acceptable, but you can still cross the ditch or go up to a house. When they get out of their car is when display of the pistol is appropriate.

thump_rrr · October 24, 2015, 10:24 AM

Quote:

You can stay on the other side of that ditch you referred to, go up a walk to a neighbor's door, basically get out of the roadway for a few minutes until they get bored with their game and leave, the driver of the car won't follow you. Then a 911 call with a license number is called for.

After all that, and they're still trying to run you down, a shot in the radiator would be appropriate.

If somebody was actively trying to run me down the radiator would not be where I would be placing my shots.

**OldMarksman** · October 24, 2015, 10:26 AM

The question is not really just whether the actions of a driver of a vehicle may provide a basis for a reasonable belief that there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.

The question is what the should reasonably do out of immediate necessity to defend himself or herself.

It is possible to conjure up a circumstance in which the attempted use of deadly force against driver (which would neither stop nor slow the car nor cause it to change direction) would be the only way for the defender to prevent immediate death or serious bodily harm....I suppose.

Barring that---yes, it is "clear cut".

**Spats McGee** · October 24, 2015, 10:32 AM

I've known of several occasions when ne'er-do-wells have tried to run over police offices in my town. Said ne'er-do-well is routinely charged with Aggravated Assault, which requires a weapon.

So my answer is "yes, a car can be a weapon."

TXAZ · October 24, 2015, 10:39 AM

The outcome and potential charges are highly dependent on jurisdiction, and likely prosecution dependent upon the DA.

In Texas, you're probably (IMHO) ok with protecting yourself with a gun against a vehicle, except in Austin. Possibly also San Antonio and Dallas.
Having a gun (at all) in Austin is a 'virtual crime' according to at least 1 of the Asst. Dist. Attorneys.

In Lubbock, you may get a pat on the back (

)

roashooter · October 24, 2015, 11:31 AM

One thing I have NOT seen others mention....is the dreaded....but ever ongoing.....cellphone/texting-distracted driving......from what I read in the op posting...the laughing could have been from a received text/call.....I see so many people doing what I now call.."preying to the cell phone god".....a moving vehicle...with the driver...head down as in prayer....face planted in a phone.......the day using a cell phone in a moving vehicle is illegal....can not come soon enough...

SARuger · October 24, 2015, 01:36 PM

Thanks all for the replies.

The driver veered his vehicle at me after I let my presence be known with my flashlight. That tells me there was ill intent towards me. It was probably just kids acting stupid but in this day and time you never know. As far as me knocking on a door for help, yes I could have done that. But this was 11pm, in a mostly elderly neighborhood. Hopefully I will never face this situation again

AK103K · October 24, 2015, 02:00 PM

If your in fear for your life, does the weapon (or even lack of one, with allowable differences) really matter?

GJSchulze · October 24, 2015, 02:14 PM

Forget the legalities. How do you expect to stop a car with a pocket gun? Kill the driver: car is still coming at you. Shoot the tire: 1) you have to hit it, 2) you have to puncture it, and 3) the car is still coming at you. Shoot the engine: you're kidding, right?

Best bet is to either run in the direction the car is coming from, but at an angle so that the driver can't turn the car in your direction and/or get behind a largish tree or similar heavy object that won't be pushed by the car.

So simple answer is to get out of the way. Oh, and do you really think you can draw the gun in time while being stressed? And control your dog? By all means have your gun ready afterwards in case the driver exits the car.

HiBC · October 24, 2015, 02:55 PM

How I look at it.(I have NO legal credentials.I'm not a lawyer.This is not advice).
If the question is "Would I get away with it?"

Well,generally I would just operate under the assumption that if you use your weapon on someone that you Will be arrested and charged,and that you Will be in a legal fight to stay out of prison.
If the situation is bad enough to say "I can't worry about that right now,I'm about to be dead"
Then facing a legal battle is better than being dead.

And its probably legit self defense.

For myself,I would also assume that any questions I posted on the internet about "Would I be justified in shooting someone under these circumstances?" will be found and brought to court by the DA.

The situation as you described?I wasn't there.Sounds bad.Sounds like the driver needed to be arrested for something.Sounds like you have legit reason to be PO'd.
But ,without shooting,you are alive and so is your dog.That apparently means you cannot claim "I had no other choice"
And,you are not sitting in a cell after giving your house to some lawyer who may not be able to keep you out of jail.Which could always happen.

Could be you made the best of a bad situation.

Where is the tipping point between "I am in mortal fear for my life" and "Can I get away with shooting this SOB"

In an instant,a situation that may well have been about fearing for your life changes from stopping an immediate threat (legit SD) to being PO'd and "administering vigilante justice" which is not legit.

It all changes in microseconds.

JN01 · October 24, 2015, 03:44 PM

There was a case in Cincinnati a few years ago where a man shot and killed a man stealing his car when the thief veered toward the owner and attempted to hit him.

The County Prosecutor, Joe Deters, said the shooting was justified and declined to prosecute.

GM1967 · October 24, 2015, 05:13 PM

I've had pretty much the same thing happen to me twice in my life, both times in my late teens. Was I in fear for my life? Yes, or I wouldn't have moved. Both times I resolved the situation by taking two quick steps.

I am 99.9% sure that the driver was not trying to kill me, and most likely that applies to your situation as well. In both cases the driver did swerve intentionally to put me in harm's way, which has got to be some kind of crime, but difficult to prove (cameras in some areas may change that). I'm sure it was just some morally deficient idiot, being egged on by his equally stupid friends.

As far as using a gun to defend yourself in such a situation, it's probably not a good idea either legally or tactically. Best solution is to move to where you are safe from the car. Usually there are ways to do that. I think it would only be justified if you were certain the driver meant to harm you, like if he's doing it repeatedly, and you had no safe way to retreat, like if you were in the middle of a completely open parking lot or something.

Even then, your carry gun is probably not the gun you'd want to disable the driver or the car.

As for the argument that killing the driver doesn't stop the car, no, but at least the car wouldn't be able to compensate for your dodge.

skizzums · October 24, 2015, 06:52 PM

don't forget the do-gooder that shot the carjacker with a large woman on the hood. can't say it can't be done. But getting off shots with car headed towards you is a little different and not likely to save you even if you do put the bullets where needed, how's it going to stop then. i think your situation would have been easily escaped after the first pass, and there is no way to know the driver's intent unless he comes back around a second time and then your should be able to have had a barricade of some kind between you and the car. outside of him doing an instant 180 and coming right back for you, i think you would have a tough time making your case.

mehavey · October 24, 2015, 07:03 PM

Quote:

outside of him doing an instant 180 and coming right back for you,
i think you would have a tough time making your case.

Which where this thread comes full circle:

Quote:

Originally Posted by OP

If they had come back to take another pass at me could I defend myself?

Art Eatman · October 24, 2015, 08:06 PM

The best gunfight is the one you don't have.

Retreat into the dark, behind shrubbery or whatever large tree is both concealment and cover. Wait and see what--if anything--the idiots do next. Wait a bit more.

Nothing? Probably just a momentary stupid; continue toward home, but with increased alertness.

They come driving back? You're concealed. Stay that way.

They come back and exit the vehicle? Whole different deal. First off, stay concealed and watch. They may give up and leave, which is what I would expect. If not, well, you're alert and prepared for whatever next arises and you may well have a reasonable and prudent person's need to use deadly force.

Never let your ego drive your behavior.

johnwilliamson062 · October 24, 2015, 09:47 PM

My advice is to be more open to criticism.

I'm starting to remember why, historically, I don't frequent this section of the forum.

pax · October 25, 2015, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Never let your ego drive your behavior.

And that about sums it up.

pax

October 24, 2015, 08:03 AM	#1
SARuger Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2014 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains of VA Posts: 954	Can you consider a car to be a form of a weapon? So I'm walking the pup the other night and a car is coming down the street towards me. I wiggle my LED flashlight at them to let them know I'm there. I have had issues before of cars "breezing" me and the dog and its left me a little skiddish. This car veers towards me and proceeds to take a path to hit me! I jump to the ditch and the car passes and I clearly hear the occupants laughing. My road is not lighted, I didn't get the tag and couldn't tell the make/model/color. I had my pocket carry on me and if they had come back to do harm I was ready but they were cowards or they got wise and moved on. My question is; If they had come back to take another pass at me could I defend myself? I worry because I'm in a house filled neighborhood and a stray bullet could do more harm than good and a moving target is difficult at night with a handgun. I wonder what the legalities are here? I called the county police and they were of no help. Could care less actually. If I were in a more rural area like where I grew up, I know what I would have done........ I want advice not criticism.

October 24, 2015, 08:43 AM	#3
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	That's a tough one to call. I understand that most states don't have a duty to retreat, but I think most folks with any sense could figure an easy out if you were actually fearful for your life. They are in a car, I can only assume their are trees, houses and other cars nearby, not to mention just a quick jog back to the house. If you were staying in the same general area, pretty much waiting for the car to return, you couldn't have been fearing much. __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

October 24, 2015, 10:32 AM	#11
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 8,821	I've known of several occasions when ne'er-do-wells have tried to run over police offices in my town. Said ne'er-do-well is routinely charged with Aggravated Assault, which requires a weapon. So my answer is "yes, a car can be a weapon." __________________ I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some.

October 24, 2015, 10:39 AM	#12
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	The outcome and potential charges are highly dependent on jurisdiction, and likely prosecution dependent upon the DA. In Texas, you're probably (IMHO) ok with protecting yourself with a gun against a vehicle, except in Austin. Possibly also San Antonio and Dallas. Having a gun (at all) in Austin is a 'virtual crime' according to at least 1 of the Asst. Dist. Attorneys. In Lubbock, you may get a pat on the back ( ) __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

October 24, 2015, 06:52 PM	#20
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	don't forget the do-gooder that shot the carjacker with a large woman on the hood. can't say it can't be done. But getting off shots with car headed towards you is a little different and not likely to save you even if you do put the bullets where needed, how's it going to stop then. i think your situation would have been easily escaped after the first pass, and there is no way to know the driver's intent unless he comes back around a second time and then your should be able to have had a barricade of some kind between you and the car. outside of him doing an instant 180 and coming right back for you, i think you would have a tough time making your case. __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

October 24, 2015, 08:56 AM	#4
SARuger Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2014 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains of VA Posts: 954	Ready to do what? To protect myself if they had come back hoping I was wounded? I never drew my firearm. I was a half mile from my house.

October 24, 2015, 09:51 AM	#7
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	I see no difference between a man with a gun or a driver trying to run you down. "...if there is sufficient evidence to prove that it was reasonable to believe that the offending party posed an imminent threat to the life or well-being of another, in self-defense." Seems fairly clearcut. (Of course the forensics/tiretracks would be most useful at that point)

October 24, 2015, 10:19 AM	#8
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	You can stay on the other side of that ditch you referred to, go up a walk to a neighbor's door, basically get out of the roadway for a few minutes until they get bored with their game and leave, the driver of the car won't follow you. Then a 911 call with a license number is called for. After all that, and they're still trying to run you down, a shot in the radiator might be acceptable, but you can still cross the ditch or go up to a house. When they get out of their car is when display of the pistol is appropriate.

October 24, 2015, 10:26 AM	#10
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	The question is not really just whether the actions of a driver of a vehicle may provide a basis for a reasonable belief that there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm. The question is what the should reasonably do out of immediate necessity to defend himself or herself. It is possible to conjure up a circumstance in which the attempted use of deadly force against driver (which would neither stop nor slow the car nor cause it to change direction) would be the only way for the defender to prevent immediate death or serious bodily harm....I suppose. Barring that---yes, it is "clear cut".

October 24, 2015, 11:31 AM	#13
roashooter Junior member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Posts: 508	One thing I have NOT seen others mention....is the dreaded....but ever ongoing.....cellphone/texting-distracted driving......from what I read in the op posting...the laughing could have been from a received text/call.....I see so many people doing what I now call.."preying to the cell phone god".....a moving vehicle...with the driver...head down as in prayer....face planted in a phone.......the day using a cell phone in a moving vehicle is illegal....can not come soon enough...

October 24, 2015, 01:36 PM	#14
SARuger Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2014 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains of VA Posts: 954	Thanks all for the replies. The driver veered his vehicle at me after I let my presence be known with my flashlight. That tells me there was ill intent towards me. It was probably just kids acting stupid but in this day and time you never know. As far as me knocking on a door for help, yes I could have done that. But this was 11pm, in a mostly elderly neighborhood. Hopefully I will never face this situation again

October 24, 2015, 02:00 PM	#15
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	If your in fear for your life, does the weapon (or even lack of one, with allowable differences) really matter?

October 24, 2015, 02:14 PM	#16
GJSchulze Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2013 Location: Western New York Posts: 454	Forget the legalities. How do you expect to stop a car with a pocket gun? Kill the driver: car is still coming at you. Shoot the tire: 1) you have to hit it, 2) you have to puncture it, and 3) the car is still coming at you. Shoot the engine: you're kidding, right? Best bet is to either run in the direction the car is coming from, but at an angle so that the driver can't turn the car in your direction and/or get behind a largish tree or similar heavy object that won't be pushed by the car. So simple answer is to get out of the way. Oh, and do you really think you can draw the gun in time while being stressed? And control your dog? By all means have your gun ready afterwards in case the driver exits the car.

October 24, 2015, 02:55 PM	#17
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	How I look at it.(I have NO legal credentials.I'm not a lawyer.This is not advice). If the question is "Would I get away with it?" Well,generally I would just operate under the assumption that if you use your weapon on someone that you Will be arrested and charged,and that you Will be in a legal fight to stay out of prison. If the situation is bad enough to say "I can't worry about that right now,I'm about to be dead" Then facing a legal battle is better than being dead. And its probably legit self defense. For myself,I would also assume that any questions I posted on the internet about "Would I be justified in shooting someone under these circumstances?" will be found and brought to court by the DA. The situation as you described?I wasn't there.Sounds bad.Sounds like the driver needed to be arrested for something.Sounds like you have legit reason to be PO'd. But ,without shooting,you are alive and so is your dog.That apparently means you cannot claim "I had no other choice" And,you are not sitting in a cell after giving your house to some lawyer who may not be able to keep you out of jail.Which could always happen. Could be you made the best of a bad situation. Where is the tipping point between "I am in mortal fear for my life" and "Can I get away with shooting this SOB" In an instant,a situation that may well have been about fearing for your life changes from stopping an immediate threat (legit SD) to being PO'd and "administering vigilante justice" which is not legit. It all changes in microseconds.

October 24, 2015, 03:44 PM	#18
JN01 Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2005 Location: E Tennessee Posts: 828	There was a case in Cincinnati a few years ago where a man shot and killed a man stealing his car when the thief veered toward the owner and attempted to hit him. The County Prosecutor, Joe Deters, said the shooting was justified and declined to prosecute.

October 24, 2015, 05:13 PM	#19
GM1967 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2010 Location: Delaware - formerly NJ Posts: 276	I've had pretty much the same thing happen to me twice in my life, both times in my late teens. Was I in fear for my life? Yes, or I wouldn't have moved. Both times I resolved the situation by taking two quick steps. I am 99.9% sure that the driver was not trying to kill me, and most likely that applies to your situation as well. In both cases the driver did swerve intentionally to put me in harm's way, which has got to be some kind of crime, but difficult to prove (cameras in some areas may change that). I'm sure it was just some morally deficient idiot, being egged on by his equally stupid friends. As far as using a gun to defend yourself in such a situation, it's probably not a good idea either legally or tactically. Best solution is to move to where you are safe from the car. Usually there are ways to do that. I think it would only be justified if you were certain the driver meant to harm you, like if he's doing it repeatedly, and you had no safe way to retreat, like if you were in the middle of a completely open parking lot or something. Even then, your carry gun is probably not the gun you'd want to disable the driver or the car. As for the argument that killing the driver doesn't stop the car, no, but at least the car wouldn't be able to compensate for your dodge.

October 24, 2015, 08:06 PM	#22
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	The best gunfight is the one you don't have. Retreat into the dark, behind shrubbery or whatever large tree is both concealment and cover. Wait and see what--if anything--the idiots do next. Wait a bit more. Nothing? Probably just a momentary stupid; continue toward home, but with increased alertness. They come driving back? You're concealed. Stay that way. They come back and exit the vehicle? Whole different deal. First off, stay concealed and watch. They may give up and leave, which is what I would expect. If not, well, you're alert and prepared for whatever next arises and you may well have a reasonable and prudent person's need to use deadly force. Never let your ego drive your behavior.

October 24, 2015, 09:47 PM	#23
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	My advice is to be more open to criticism. I'm starting to remember why, historically, I don't frequent this section of the forum.